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Nillaice
Posted on Monday, February 21, 2011 - 11:28 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

not that i wanna jump ship ... just curious.
the wife helped me realize that i have recently been hitting the Buell kool-aid pretty hard, and ignoring all teh time my bike has spent in the shop.
it seems that every time i get the bike back, i forget about the last few weeks that it was in the shop.

i've got some cash invested in fancy bits here and there, warranty and stuff too.
not sure how much of it i can get back, an am thinking it'd not even be worth it.
either i have a bike that leaves me stranded and is a shop/trailer queen, or i am paying on a bike i don't have anymore.

the dealer won't give me a loaner bike (not that i'm strapped for vehicles) and it'd be a very nice gesture considering teh trouble i've been thru, and the $ they are making on recalls
it'd be a nice gesture and would make the whole thing a bit more endureable.

as much as i love every thing about this bike, my mind can't help but wonder. ...
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Dannybuell
Posted on Tuesday, February 22, 2011 - 12:50 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

4th stator right? same dealer each time?
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Court
Posted on Tuesday, February 22, 2011 - 07:28 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

It appears you are in Virginia. Virginia is one of the states that DOES (many don't) include motorcycles under their Lemon Laws.

Virginia generally requires 3 repair attempts or 30 calendar days out of service or 1 repair attempt for a serious safety defect within an 18 month window.

I generally recommend folks exhaust other options first. Few realize how you get "paid" if you "win" a Lemon Law case.

I'd start by calling the team at Buell Customer Service and explaining your situation.


Here is the full text of the statute:


quote:

Virginia State Statutes

Title 59.1, Chapter 17.3
Trade And Commerce
Virginia Motor Vehicle Warranty Enforcement Act

59.1-207.9 Short title.

This chapter may be cited as the Virginia Motor Vehicle Warranty Enforcement Act.

59.1-207.10 Intent.

The General Assembly recognizes that a motor vehicle is a major consumer purchase, and there is no doubt that a defective motor vehicle creates a hardship for the consumer. It is the intent of the General Assembly that a good faith motor vehicle warranty complaint by a consumer should be resolved by the manufacturer, or its agent, within a specified period of time. It is further the intent of the General Assembly to provide the statutory procedures whereby a consumer may receive a replacement motor vehicle, or a full refund, for a motor vehicle which cannot be brought into conformity with the express warranty issued by the manufacturer. However, nothing in this chapter shall in any way limit the rights or remedies which are otherwise available to a consumer under any other law.

59.1-207.11 Definitions.

As used in this chapter, the following terms shall have the following meanings:

"Collateral charges" means any sales-related or lease-related charges including but not limited to sales tax, license fees, registration fees, title fees, finance charges and interest, transportation charges, dealer preparation charges or any other charges for service contracts, undercoating, rust proofing or installed options, not recoverable from a third party. If a refund involves a lease, "collateral charges" means, in addition to any of the above, capitalized cost reductions, credits and allowances for any trade-in vehicles, fees to another to obtain the lease, and insurance or other costs expended by the lessor for the benefit of the lessee.

"Comparable motor vehicle" means a motor vehicle that is identical or reasonably equivalent to the motor vehicle to be replaced, as the motor vehicle to be replaced existed at the time of purchase or lease with an offset from this value for a reasonable allowance for its use.

"Consumer" means the purchaser, other than for purposes of resale, or the lessee, of a motor vehicle used in substantial part for personal, family, or household purposes, and any person to whom such motor vehicle is transferred for the same purposes during the duration of any warranty applicable to such motor vehicle, and any other person entitled by the terms of such warranty to enforce the obligations of the warranty.

"Incidental damages" shall have the same meaning as provided in 8.2-715.

"Lemon law rights period" means the period ending eighteen months after the date of the original delivery to the consumer of a new motor vehicle. This shall be the period during which the consumer can report any nonconformity to the manufacturer and pursue any rights provided for under this chapter.

"Lien" means a security interest in a motor vehicle.

"lien holder" means a person, partnership, association, corporation or entity with a security interest in a motor vehicle pursuant to a lien.

"Manufacturer" means a person, partnership, association, corporation or entity engaged in the business of manufacturing or assembling motor vehicles, or of distributing motor vehicles to motor vehicle dealers.

"Manufacturer's express warranty" means the written warranty, so labeled, of the manufacturer of a new automobile, including any terms or conditions precedent to the enforcement of obligations under that warranty.

"Motor vehicle" means only passenger cars, pickup or panel trucks, motorcycles, self-propelled motorized chassis of motor homes and mopeds as those terms are defined in 46.2-100 and demonstrators or leased vehicles with which a warranty was issued.

"Motor vehicle dealer" shall have the same meaning as provided in 46.2-1500.

"Nonconformity" means a failure to conform with a warranty, a defect or a condition, including those that do not affect the drivability of the vehicle, which significantly impairs the use, market value, or safety of a motor vehicle.

"Notify" or "notification" means that the manufacturer shall be deemed to have been notified under this chapter if a written complaint of the defect or defects has been mailed to it or it has responded to the consumer in writing regarding a complaint, or a factory representative has either inspected the vehicle or met with the consumer or an authorized dealer regarding the nonconformity.

"Reasonable allowance for use" shall not exceed one-half of the amount allowed per mile by the Internal Revenue Service, as provided by regulation, revenue procedure, or revenue ruling promulgated pursuant to 162 of the Internal Revenue Code, for use of a personal vehicle for business purposes, plus an amount to account for any loss to the fair market value of the vehicle resulting from damage beyond normal wear and tear, unless the damage resulted from nonconformity to any warranty.

"Serious safety defect" means a life-threatening malfunction or nonconformity that impedes the consumer's ability to control or operate the new motor vehicle for ordinary use or reasonable intended purposes or creates a risk of fire or explosion.

"Significant impairment" means to render the new motor vehicle unfit, unreliable or unsafe for ordinary use or reasonable intended purposes.

"Warranty" means any implied warranty or any written warranty of the manufacturer, or any affirmations of fact or promise made by the manufacturer in connection with the sale or lease of a motor vehicle that become part of the basis of the bargain. The term "warranty" pertains to the obligations of the manufacturer in relation to materials, workmanship, and fitness of a motor vehicle for ordinary use or reasonable intended purposes throughout the duration of the lemon law rights period as defined under this section.

59.1-207.12 Conformity to all warranties.

If a new motor vehicle does not conform to all warranties, and the consumer reports the nonconformity to the manufacturer, its agents, or its authorized dealer during the manufacturer's warranty period, the manufacturer, its agent or its authorized dealer shall make such repairs as are necessary to conform the vehicle to such warranties, notwithstanding the fact that such repairs are made after the expiration of such manufacturer's warranty period.

59.1-207.13 Nonconformity of motor vehicles.

A. If the manufacturer, its agents or authorized dealers do not conform the motor vehicle to any applicable warranty by repairing or correcting any defect or condition, including those that do not affect the drivability of the vehicle, which significantly impairs the use, market value, or safety of the motor vehicle to the consumer after a reasonable number of attempts during the lemon law rights period, the manufacturer shall:

1. Replace the motor vehicle with a comparable motor vehicle acceptable to the consumer, or

2. Accept return of the motor vehicle and refund to the consumer, lessor, and any lien holder as their interest may appear the full contract price, including all collateral charges, incidental damages, less a reasonable allowance for the consumer's use of the vehicle up to the date of the first notice of nonconformity that is given to the manufacturer, its agents or authorized dealer. Refunds or replacements shall be made to the consumer, lessor or lien holder, if any, as their interests may appear. The consumer shall have the unconditional right to choose a refund rather than a replacement vehicle and to drive the motor vehicle until he receives either the replacement vehicle or the refund. The subtraction of a reasonable allowance for use shall apply to either a replacement or refund of the motor vehicle. Mileage, expenses, and reasonable loss of use necessitated by attempts to conform such motor vehicle to the express warranty may be recovered by the consumer.

A1. In the case of a replacement of or refund for a leased vehicle, in addition to any other damages provided in this chapter, the motor vehicle shall be returned to the manufacturer and the consumer's written lease shall be terminated by the lessor without penalty to the consumer. The lessor shall transfer title to the manufacturer as necessary to effectuate the consumer's rights pursuant to this chapter, whether the consumer chooses vehicle replacement or a refund.

B. It shall be presumed that a reasonable number of attempts have been undertaken to conform a motor vehicle to any warranty and that the motor vehicle is significantly impaired if during the period of eighteen months following the date of original delivery of the motor vehicle to the consumer either:

1. The same nonconformity has been subject to repair three or more times by the manufacturer, its agents or its authorized dealers and the same nonconformity continues to exist;

2. The nonconformity is a serious safety defect and has been subject to repair one or more times by the manufacturer, its agent or its authorized dealer and the same nonconformity continues to exist; or

3. The motor vehicle is out of service due to repair for a cumulative total of thirty calendar days, unless such repairs could not be performed because of conditions beyond the control of the manufacturer, its agents or authorized dealers, including war, invasion, strike, fire, flood or other natural disasters.

C. The lemon law rights period shall be extended if the manufacturer has been notified but the nonconformity has not been effectively repaired by the manufacturer, or its agent, by the expiration of the lemon law rights period.

D. The manufacturer shall clearly and conspicuously disclose to the consumer, in the warranty or owner's manual, that written notification of the nonconformity to the manufacturer is required before the consumer may be eligible for a refund or replacement of the vehicle under this chapter. The manufacturer shall include with the warranty or owner's manual the name and address to which the consumer shall send such written notification.

E. It shall be the responsibility of the consumer, or his representative, prior to availing himself of the provisions of this section, to notify the manufacturer of the need for the correction or repair of the nonconformity, unless the manufacturer has been notified as defined in 59.1-207.11. If the manufacturer or factory representative has not been notified of the conditions set forth in subsection B of this section and any of the conditions set forth in subsection B of this section already exists, the manufacturer shall be given an additional opportunity, not to exceed fifteen days, to correct or repair the nonconformity. If notification shall be mailed to an authorized dealer, the authorized dealer shall upon receipt forward such notification to the manufacturer.

F. Nothing in this chapter shall be construed to limit or impair the rights and remedies of a consumer under any other law.

G. It is an affirmative defense to any claim under this chapter that:

1. An alleged nonconformity does not significantly impair the use, market value, or safety of the motor vehicle; or

2. A nonconformity is the result of abuse, neglect or unauthorized modification or alteration of a motor vehicle by a consumer.

59.1-207.14 Action to enforce provisions of chapter.

Any consumer who suffers loss by reason of a violation of any provision of this chapter may bring a civil action to enforce such provision. Any consumer who is successful in such an action or any defendant in any frivolous action brought by a consumer shall recover reasonable attorney's fees, expert witness fees and court costs incurred by bringing such actions.

59.1-207.15 Informal dispute settlement procedure.

A. If a manufacturer provides an informal dispute settlement procedure, it shall be the consumer's choice whether or not to use it prior to availing himself of his rights under this chapter.

B. If a dispute settlement procedure is resorted to by the consumer and the decision is for a refund or a comparable motor vehicle, the manufacturer shall have forty days from its receipt of the consumer's acceptance of the decision or from the date of a court order to comply with the terms of the decision.

C. In any action brought because of the manufacturer's failure to comply with the decision, within the scope of the procedure's authority, rendered as a result of a dispute resolution proceeding or a court order, the court may triple the value of the award stipulated in the decision as provided for in this chapter, plus award other equitable relief the court deems appropriate, including additional attorney's fees.

59.1-207.16 Action to be brought within certain time.

Any action brought under this chapter shall be commenced within the lemon law rights period following the date of original delivery of the motor vehicle to the consumer; however, any consumer whose good faith attempts to settle the dispute have not resulted in the satisfactory correction or repair of the nonconformity, replacement of the motor vehicle or refund to the consumer of the amount described in subdivision 2 of subsection A of 59.1-207.13, shall have twelve months from the date of the final action taken by the manufacturer in its dispute settlement procedure or within the lemon law rights period, whichever is longer, to file an action in the proper court, provided the consumer has rejected the manufacturer's final action.

59.1-207.16:1 Disclosure of returned vehicles; penalty.

A. If a motor vehicle that is returned to the manufacturer or distributor either under this chapter or by judgment, decree, or arbitration award in this or any other state and is then transferred by a manufacturer or distributor to a dealer, licensed under Chapter 15 (46.2-1500 et seq.) of Title 46.2, in Virginia, the manufacturer or distributor shall disclose this information to the Virginia dealer.

B. If the returned vehicle is then made available for resale or for another lease, the manufacturer shall, prior to sale or lease, disclose in writing in a clear and conspicuous manner, on a separate piece of paper in ten-point capital type, to the Virginia dealer that this motor vehicle was returned to the manufacturer, distributor or factory branch, the nature of the defect which resulted in the return, and the condition of the motor vehicle at the time of transfer to the Virginia dealer. It shall be the responsibility of the dealer that receives this disclosure to give notice of its contents to any prospective purchaser or lessee prior to sale or lease, and to transfer the disclosure, or a copy thereof, to the next purchaser or lessee. A dealer's responsibility under this section shall cease upon the sale or lease of the affected motor vehicle to the first purchaser or lessee not for resale or lease.

C. Any manufacturer or distributor who violates this section of the Motor Vehicle Warranty Enforcement Act shall be guilty of a Class 3 misdemeanor.


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Bueller4ever
Posted on Tuesday, February 22, 2011 - 11:07 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I'm not going back to the dealer when my second stator fails. I will have it rewound with quality parts by an American company. It started dropping to high 12's today at idle, it was reading high 13-14's at idle when I first got it back.

I wanted to ride it to NC for the big buell meet, but I have no faith in the charging system.
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Nillaice
Posted on Tuesday, February 22, 2011 - 11:38 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

court, thanks for posting the statute. i forgot how my wife found it.

I generally recommend folks exhaust other options first. Few realize how you get "paid" if you "win" a Lemon Law case.

that's one of my Q's. im guessing they pay off what i owe minus $ for mileage, and any scratches. then say 'buh-bye'?

first i was asking if any/how many people have had success with a lemon law claim.
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Court
Posted on Tuesday, February 22, 2011 - 12:46 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

>>>>that's one of my Q's. im guessing they pay off what i owe minus $ for mileage, and any scratches. then say 'buh-bye'?

That is inaccurate.

It is also the reason I suggest folks understand what "guns and bullets are before they get in a gunfight".

Typically you end up getting a "depreciated fair market value".

The one case that I always recall, and it was . . I realize . . an anomaly . . was a guy who bought a bike . . put LOTS of miles on it . . had continuing problems and pursued a Lemon Law solution.

Time came to settle up and someone did the math, got it approved, handed the guys attorney a check, took the executed title and left. Of course, with the mileage adjustment for the high miles the guy ended up getting a check that was about 30% of what he owed on the bike.

The amount, in a Lemon Law action, has NOTHING to do with any loan balance, it is the Fair Market Value adjusted for depreciation and mileage.

I see very few of these that are not settled LONG before the Lemon Law route is selected.
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Court
Posted on Tuesday, February 22, 2011 - 12:47 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

CAVEAT: I have NOT READ the above Virginia Law and my personal experience is no substitute for sound legal advice.

The Law will govern the process. Here's what I'd be reading, and checking on case law, on . .


quote:

2. Accept return of the motor vehicle and refund to the consumer, lessor, and any lien holder as their interest may appear the full contract price, including all collateral charges, incidental damages, less a reasonable allowance for the consumer's use of the vehicle up to the date of the first notice of nonconformity that is given to the manufacturer, its agents or authorized dealer. Refunds or replacements shall be made to the consumer, lessor or lien holder, if any, as their interests may appear. The consumer shall have the unconditional right to choose a refund rather than a replacement vehicle and to drive the motor vehicle until he receives either the replacement vehicle or the refund. The subtraction of a reasonable allowance for use shall apply to either a replacement or refund of the motor vehicle. Mileage, expenses, and reasonable loss of use necessitated by attempts to conform such motor vehicle to the express warranty may be recovered by the consumer.




(Message edited by court on February 22, 2011)
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Tpoppa
Posted on Tuesday, February 22, 2011 - 12:55 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

There are a myriad of settlement options that can occur prior to going to court:
Cash Settlement,
Cash Settlement + keep the bike,
Ext Warranty,
etc.

These processes tend to move S-L-O-W
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Mountainstorm
Posted on Tuesday, February 22, 2011 - 12:57 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Thanks for that info Court. Even though I am completely happy with my Buell it's always good to understand more about what other people have gone through. Good luck with that Nilla...whatever you choose to do.
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Buellmojo
Posted on Tuesday, February 22, 2011 - 01:37 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

You will have a hard time convincing Harley Davidson to take the motorcycle off of your hands without a lawsuit being filed, they do not want the headache.
You might see a small amount of payment, for your troubles of course, and the motorcycle and the headaches are still your problem.

You will enter into a negotiation stage with your attorney and Harley Davidson prior to the lawsuit, this will be very long and irritating.
If you come to an agreement in this process then no lawsuit or further action is necessary.
If you decline the negotiations then it will go to a lawsuit being filed against Harley Davidson from your attorney, and this can, and probably will, take a very long time to settle, with you seeing some out of pocket expenses along the way that your attorney will try and get refunded to you in the settlement.

Remember that Harley Davidson does not have to negotiate nor even listen to you or your attorney's complaints until a lawsuit is filed, and they can stop the negotiations at any time prior to a lawsuit if they choose to engage in the negotiation process at all.

Another heads up, regardless of how strong your case is to you and your attorney under the written laws, Harley Davidson will not care, and will not push easily, even if your case falls under multiple definitions and guidelines written within the law.

I am not trying to discourage you at all, but just be aware that the law is not as cut and dry, nor as simple, as it might seem.

I am sure every case is handled somewhat differently though?

In your case it sounds like you might have enough to file, make sure you have all of the vital information for your attorney at the beginning, repair orders, time at the dealer, loan information, etc. etc.

If it does not go to a lawsuit you should not see any out of pocket expense to you.

So if you are fully committed, then I do not see why you have not contacted an attorney yet?
You can try contacting Harley Davidson yourself, but it will probably result in a waste of time, and just make you angry!

Best of luck with your decision!
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Xl1200r
Posted on Tuesday, February 22, 2011 - 03:08 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

If all you're going to get is fair market value, you may as well just sell it privately, or trade it on something else.
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Usanigel
Posted on Tuesday, February 22, 2011 - 04:29 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

The standard warranty does not include a covered rental. The extended warranty does to a point. The Buell 1125 is one machine to get an extended warranty on. It has too many expensive issues. A few of them keep happening (stators come to mind). I understand you can go aftermarket and get a rewind and deal with that and any problem for it.

Warranty price is jumping VERY soon, pm me if you want to get extended at a fair price.

Had a van returned under lemon law, did me no favors, but dealer was a slicky! Fair market value was what paid for it in the end.
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Nillaice
Posted on Tuesday, February 22, 2011 - 06:20 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

i got the Extended warranty, but the dealer wont give me keys to a loaner bike.
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Bartimus
Posted on Tuesday, February 22, 2011 - 08:36 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I had to file a Lemon Law case on my '08 ULY XT when nobody could fix my shifting problems, or resolve the surging at 3000 ~ 3500 RPM's.
I won my case, and Harley gave me a cash settlement of $9500 and the bike. I had to sign a waiver releasing Harley of any liability in the bike, which I gladly did.
I paid off the bike, and took it to New Mexico, and traded it in for an 1125CR. I had enough left over to buy many farkles for the CR, and my Honda, with a little spare change for a small road trip.
Thank You Harley!
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Usanigel
Posted on Tuesday, February 22, 2011 - 09:56 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Nillaice, you can be reimbursed for rental up to 75 bucks a day for max of 10 days. Its not a loaner from the dealer. But it should be offered, sometimes you got to ask!
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Buellmojo
Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2011 - 02:12 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Bartimus,
That was a great settlement congratulations!

Many things have changed inside Corporate Harley Davidson recently, I don't think many will see a settlement as good as yours any longer without filing a lawsuit, but that is just my opinion.

Rumor has it Harley Davidson does not have their own legal team (what ever it was called) any longer, they use an outside law firm for all of their legal needs now, not sure how true this is, but I have no reason not to believe the source that informed me of this either.
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