| Author |
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Jdugger
| | Posted on Friday, January 07, 2011 - 07:50 pm: | 
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> Typically, I am on the gas before I reach the apex,
> since I have already completed my turn in and set my lean angle and line.
You are leaving time on the table with this approach.
If you agree that the fastest way around the track is the highest average speed, then you understand that the goal should be to spend the minimum amount of time possible at the slowest (apex) speed.
Trail braking achieves the highest average speed through the entry of a corner with a given apex (slowest point) speed.
If you are slower than the speed you are willing to hit the apex at any point during corner entry, you are leaving time on the track. Your drive out of the corner will be the same, trail braking or not, given a maximum possible (for you) apex speed. (Think about it...)
As a defensive racing technique, exchanging a line with an earlier apex for one with a later apex (given equal speeds through both) is always a tactical advantage, and trail braking helps you do just that.
If you choose NOT to trail brake and you are racing me, I'm stuffing your ass on the first double-apex corner, and perhaps well before that. The brakes are an excellent way to pass other riders.
> I'm just trying to get a better idea of when, how and why to use it, or not.
It's my opinion trail braking is the correct technique for most cornering situations.
To be honest, I think the answer to your question is "there are far more situations where one should trail brake than situations where one would ideally not." The reasons are the classic "the fastest line is also the safest line", "the best defended line is the fastest line", and so on. It's simply the correct braking technique for most cornering situations.
Now, mind you, all this advice is worth what it cost you because I'm absolutely a novice level racer.  |
Paint_shaker
| | Posted on Friday, January 07, 2011 - 09:43 pm: |
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My take on trail braking (Yours may vary); It's an advanced skill that takes time to develope, learn and master. It can have negative consequences if used improperly, especially on the street. And not everyone can master the skill.
However, it is a useful skill to have!
I trailbrake heavily on the race track. I generally find no need to trail brake on the street (cept' maybe at work).
(Message edited by Paint shaker on January 07, 2011) |
Skntpig
| | Posted on Saturday, January 08, 2011 - 11:57 am: |
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I can't even seriously imagine how scary it would be to ride a motorcycle without rev matching while downshifting, trail braking into every corner, and applying some throttle though the entire turn.
False neutrals scare the crap out of me much worse than a sliding front or rear tire.
Then again I rev match in my car and heal-toe with the brake and throttle when cornering quickly too. |
Nattyx1
| | Posted on Saturday, January 08, 2011 - 06:07 pm: |
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Skntpig +1 |
Johnnys999
| | Posted on Saturday, January 08, 2011 - 06:49 pm: |
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I've been practicing trail braking for a long time. My focus is being smooth with the actual lever pressure and transition between brake and throttle. The one thing we are not afforded when practicing is the end result of too much trail braking and when is the likelyhood of the front end letting go. Years ago, I mean lots of years ago I attended the CHP motorcycle academy and one exercise brought this concept home. We were taught how to broad slide skid a Harley on asphalt. You would never think of doing that on your own bike. I suppose the next best thing would be to practice this and other techniques on a dirt bike. What did I learn? Fortunately when you crashed trying to perform the above exercise you got closer and closer to the edge of the envelope, the fine line between staying upright and going down. We can't be doing this on our own bikes, but nothing wrong with going through the physical motions at a lower threshold, within safe limits. Learning is more gradual, but the end result would be the same I think. One element of the above broad slide emphasized was getting on the accelerator ASAP after executing the skid, similar to getting on the accelerator once the apex is reached on the road. However, it wasn't quite transitional in this case, it was when there was a moment of pause as if your balancing on a tight wire when the bike reaches close to 90 degrees to the road when you throttle out. As Nattyx1 said so well in his piece, I believe any exercise on a bike should be done carefully and in a controlled, calculated and safe manner.
Driving a car is so routine compared to a bike I don't give it much thought, except for safety. Just recently I discovered I essentially trail brake every corner while driving. I'm on the brake all the way to the apex then on to the throttle. This revelation made me chuckle actually. But on a bike the notion of trail braking has to do with more deliberate action and not performed all the time, unlike in a car. |
Fast1075
| | Posted on Sunday, January 09, 2011 - 06:24 am: |
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The thing that is most important is using the technique appropriately...you need good skill at reading the surface conditions on the street...especailly in blind corners, etc...nothing sucks worse than stuffing the front because of a bit of dirt, or leaves, or a road wet from lawn sprinklers....on the track where you KNOW what every corner is all about...hammer down.
Any technique that makes you s smooth rider is good...trail braking is one of them....it dovetails nicely with what Keith Code calls standard throttle. I learned much of what I know riding piston port 2 smokes...poor throttle control would put you on your ear quickly.
The power delivery from my Buell makes it so much easier to ride briskly. |
Mac_inger
| | Posted on Monday, January 10, 2011 - 01:01 pm: |
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"The thing that is most important is using the technique appropriately...you need good skill at reading the surface conditions on the street...especailly in blind corners, etc...nothing sucks worse than stuffing the front because of a bit of dirt, or leaves, or a road wet from lawn sprinklers..."
Amen! |
Thefleshrocket
| | Posted on Monday, January 10, 2011 - 04:45 pm: |
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The one thing I don't understand is, with the support for trail braking amongst racers and many of the more-skilled street riders, why the EB R ECM has no engine braking in its default configuration.
I use engine braking as a very mild form of trail braking--if I'm riding "The Pace" and not going significantly faster than what I want my apex speed to be, I'll roll off the throttle and let the engine braking slow me to the desired speed.
Well, actually I take it, back. I DO understand. Since racers don't ride "The Pace" and they probably don't rely on engine braking. So, nevermind. I'll be ordering my EB R ECM with engine braking turned on so I can use it for trail braking. LOL |
Jdugger
| | Posted on Monday, January 10, 2011 - 07:15 pm: |
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Uh, trail braking is done with the FRONT tire, not the rear one. |
Rodrob
| | Posted on Monday, January 10, 2011 - 07:20 pm: |
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Jdugger,
> Typically, I am on the gas before I reach the apex,
> since I have already completed my turn in and set my lean angle and line.
>You are leaving time on the table with this approach.
If I am braking later, turning quicker and accelerating sooner, given equal speed at the slowest point in the corner, how am I leaving time on the table?
I too am a novice racer. Please explain.
Thanks! |
Jdugger
| | Posted on Monday, January 10, 2011 - 07:25 pm: |
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Average speed.
Do you have a Starlane on your bike or any other way of collecting telemetry? |
Rodrob
| | Posted on Monday, January 10, 2011 - 07:45 pm: |
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I'm just investigating options on that. What would you recommend? |
Jdugger
| | Posted on Monday, January 10, 2011 - 08:02 pm: |
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I use a Starlane Stealth. I like it a lot, gives me acel/decel, track position, speed, laptimes and splits.
What I like about it is going on track and trying different things and being able to objectively measure what's faster, both in time and MPH.
For example, I learned it's far more important to hold the throttle as far as possible into turn 7 at ECR and panic brake into the turn than be smooth or get the corner right.
It's a slow corner, so even totally throwing it away isn't much loss compared to getting just a half second extra at 133 MPH at the end of that straight.
So, it's stuff like that I've learned about what makes a lap fast that's really helped. |
Thefleshrocket
| | Posted on Monday, January 10, 2011 - 08:59 pm: |
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Jdugger, who says trail braking is only done with the front tire? It's not called trail front braking.
Yes, engine braking does use brake pads pressing on rotor, but it is still braking (hence it being called engine braking). |
Johnnys999
| | Posted on Monday, January 10, 2011 - 09:17 pm: |
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You may say you do this and that with throttle and braking, but how are you sure? I like the Jdugger device for that reason because like in golf I had a buddy that was obviously overswinging and he didn't think he was until I filmed him doing it. What he thought was a half swing was actually a swing pass parallel. |
Jdugger
| | Posted on Monday, January 10, 2011 - 10:53 pm: |
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> who says trail braking is only done with the front tire?
A long line of others way before me.
The whole point of trail braking is committing the front so you have a larger contact patch. |
Rodrob
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 11, 2011 - 12:07 pm: |
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Thanks for the info on the Starlane. Looks like a great setup. Right now I am using my iPhone 4 with an app called Harry's laptimer and a TomTom iPhone kit. Total of about $100 plus the phone which I had.
So far this is a killer deal for the money. Harry's Lap timer has a database of almost every track in the world, with Start/Finish and splits programmed in. Just call up the track and off you go. It will shoot video at the same time and will overlay the GPS data on the video, after the fact. It will work without the TomTom, but the TomTom improves the accuracy of the GPS by an order of magnitude.
I have yet to take it on the track, but have been testing it in the local canyons. So far so good.
It does not log any bike data like the Starlane is capable of, so I will eventually be switching to a setup like that. |
Jdugger
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 11, 2011 - 12:38 pm: |
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I use the Stealth GPS which does not log bike data, either.
I've been learning lots just from line, speed, time, etc.
And, at $400 or so, it's hardly the most expensive thing you will buy going racing for the value it provides. |
Blake
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 11, 2011 - 02:10 pm: |
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>>> The whole point of trail braking is committing the front so you have a larger contact patch.
And here I thought it was to slow down as late as possible to reduce lap times.
At the apex, as you (hopefully smoothly) transition from braking to throttle, the load on the front from braking (and related contact patch effect) goes away, right at maximum lean.
(Message edited by blake on January 11, 2011) |
Jdugger
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 11, 2011 - 02:45 pm: |
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> And here I thought it was to slow down as late as possible to reduce lap times.
That, too  |
Rodrob
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 11, 2011 - 03:58 pm: |
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There has been a lot of talk about the Apex. How do you guys define it? |
Dannybuell
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 11, 2011 - 05:49 pm: |
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the apex is the point in a turn where you are closest to the inside of the turn, that moment just before the turn opens up to the straight. |
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