| Author | Message | ||
     Thefleshrocket |
I've been a long-time user of <brand> 15W50 in my bike engines. I like it because the 50w means that I can run "extended" change intervals because if the oil shears down to a lower viscosity, it'll still be plenty thick to provide protection under high temps, and because the 15w ought to do a decent job protecting at startup when ambient temps are as cold as 32F, which is about the coldest temp I'll ride in. I periodically send off oil samples for testing and my brother has an '03 GSX-R1000 with about 21K on it that has been in the family since new. The two most recent oil change reports indicate an above-average amount of aluminum, although nothing excessive. Both of the reports indicate that the oil viscosity is still at least 40w, so it's not because the oil is shearing down too much despite an extended (8000+ miles) oil change interval. I live in southern Illinois where the winters are generally mild but my brother lives near Chicago where the winters are generally harsher. He said that over the last winter, he would periodically start the bike and let it warm up in the garage when it was quite a bit below freezing. (I told him to only start it if he plans to ride it--idling up to operating temp isn't good on the bike.) The oil report after he took ownership of the bike had a higher aluminum content than it did when I owned it. I wonder if that's due to cold starts in ambient temps that are colder than what the bike had experienced when I owned it. So this has got me thinking--perhaps 15W50 is too thick for good wear protection during cold starts in near-freezing temps. Rather than going an extended interval (usually two years and about 6000 miles) on an oil change and using the 15W50, perhaps I should use a thinner, 5W40 oil that will protect well on startup but plan on changing it annually so that it doesn't have a chance to shear down much below the 40w rating. Whare are your guys' thoughts on this? Would there be any benefit in near-freezing temps to a 5W40 over a 15W50? And any risk running a 40w in the hot summer months as opposed to a 50w? (Message edited by thefleshrocket on November 02, 2010) | ||
| Dannybuell |
Sounds good to me. | ||
| Bueller4ever |
I'd rather run a space heater in the garage. That 5w40 might shear to a 30 weight in the first few hundred miles in these engines. | ||
| Skntpig |
More than average Aluminum in the oil told me I should continue to do oil changes more often than some. $40 and 20 minutes vs. premature wear. New juice for me. | ||
| 46champ |
I told him to only start it if he plans to ride it--idling up to operating temp isn't good on the bike. This is a true statement warming up an engine at idle or just above it never really gets it up to operating temp. Oil needs to get to at least 180 degrees to get the water to evaporate. Any less is making things worse. | ||
| Thefleshrocket |
Bueller4ever, the 10w40 that I used during breakin did shear down to almost a 5w30 during the two 600 mile change intervals that I used it for, but that was dino oil. The 5w40 I'm considering is designed for use in diesel trucks with extended change intervals and is supposed to have excellent shear resistance. I'm sure it will hold up better than the dino 10w40, but how long will it stay at close to 5w40 is a question that only a test sample will tell. | ||
| Redbuelljunkie |
The most important thing to do is check your owners manual to find out what grades of oil are approved for your bike. The next most important thing to do is use the heaviest weight oil approved by your manufacturer for the lowest ambient temperature you will be riding in. The third most important thing to do is use an oil with the lowest number spread between the Winter number and the weight number on the multi-grade rating. And, as always (it almost goes without saying), any 100% fully synthetic oil is superior to any mineral oil. Period. The reason it's so important to follow the manufacturer's recommendations is because your engine is designed to have a specific oil viscosity at operating temperature. Multi-grade oils are rated based upon their performance at low temperature and high temperature. The low temperature rating ( the "W" or Winter rating) is different from the high temp rating, and does not correlate to an actual "weight"- but it does measure the oil's performance during low temperature starts (tested at 0C). The high temperature rating, which is the second number of a multi-grade rating, is usually considered the actual "weight" of the oil. This number represents the viscosity of the oil at 100C, which is the oil's operating temperature. Both of these numbers are important, but the operating temperature is the more important one. Although the majority of engine wear happens at cold start-up, an engine spends almost all of its running life at operating temperature. There is no way to eliminate cold start wear- it can only be slightly mitigated. However, choosing an oil that protects the engine the most during operating temperature can make a big difference in extending its life. Usually, a manufacturer gives a choice of two grades of oil based upon ambient temperature. Choosing the highest viscosity approved for your application gives the maximum high temp protection, while keeping within the minimum for cold temp protection. Following the manufacturer's suggestion is the best advice to follow here. Higher viscosity oils are less prone to thinning at high temperature, so using the highest approved viscosity gives you a "buffer" when your oil starts to lose viscosity. If a bike is approved for a 40 weight and a 50 weight oil, the 50 weight has to lose two ratings before it is below the minimum acceptable weight- whereas a 40 weight oil can only lose one rating. Cold starts do more harm to the engine than the oil, so it's better to use an oil that performs better at operating temps- where your engine spends most of it's time. As long your oil has a Winter rating approved by the manufacturer for the lowest ambient temperature you're operating in, you will minimize the cold start wear. You should not, however, use any oil outside of the approved grades, either higher or lower- if they were acceptable your manufacture would have approved them. One of the issues is that in order to make oils multi-grade, they include polymer additives that keep the oil from being too thick when cold, and too thin when hot. At higher temperatures, and especially in wet-clutch applications, these polymer additives are sheared and lose their effectiveness. When this occurs, the oil loses viscosity faster than an oil without these additives. The bigger the difference between an oil's Winter rating and the operating weight, the more polymer additives have been used. That means when this type of oil starts to wear, it wears quickly. So while it seems like a 0W-60 oil would be an awesome, do-it-all rating, by its very nature this oil is stretched to its limits, and its performance envelope will suffer accordingly. Bottom line- the best choice is to use the heaviest weight oil approved by your manufacturer for the lowest ambient temperature you will be riding in, and to use an oil with the lowest number differential between the Winter and "actual" weight numbers. | ||
| Thefleshrocket |
Redbuelljunkie, in the case of the 1125R, the manual says synthetic 20W50 is best when the coldest ambient starting temp is above 40F, and that the 10W40 is best when the coldest ambient starting temp is below 40F. 15W50 would seem to split that difference and be good to at least a little bit below 40F ambient starting temps. What the manual doesn't say is what temp the 10W40 or 20W50 would be good up to. Most manuals I've seen show an ambient temperature operating range, not just the bottom end of the range. So at what temp does the 10W40 become thin enough that it doesn't offer sufficient protection? | ||
| Redbuelljunkie |
Many higher-quality oil manufacturers will provide technical properties for their oil formulations. For example, Amsoil MCF 10W-40 has a pour point (the ability to flow) of -46C (-51F), and a flash point (where the oil combusts) of 234C (453F). For comparison, Amsoil MCV 20W-50 has a pour point of -38C (-39F) and a flash point of 240C (464F). These are maximums, of course, but it illustrates that the 10W-40 will flow at a slightly lower temperature, and the 20W-50 will resist combustion to a slightly higher temperature. It also illustrates the huge range of temperature that a quality synthetic can operate in. The grades your manual recommends are oils that allow for cold starts in two ambient temperature ranges, but still keep the operating viscosity within the acceptable range. My opinion is that the 20W-50 is the preferred rating, but because there are owners that live in climates that may are colder than optimal for a 20W rating, they include the 10W-40 rating. Many manuals actually suggest changing oil weights from summer to winter in order to have the optimal rating in your engine for the different ambient temps. Again, I suggest that the lower viscosity oil is the secondary choice- only to used when ambient temps are low. The higher the viscosity, the more protection an oil provides at operating temps and above. You shouldn't really worry about the maximum temp an oil can handle, unless you have an overheating problem. Under normal conditions, what wears oil out is sustained operating temps (mileage), impurities from combustion (impurities are inherent in mineral oil), condensation, oxidation, pressure, and shear. All of these factors are affected more by use, riding style, and storage than anything else, so the rider plays the biggest role here. As stated above, the higher viscosity an oil has, the more protection you have against loss of viscosity. The factors that contribute to wear are different from rider to rider, so that's why it's important to have regular oil analysis. As you are already aware, there has been a change in the performance of the oil in your Suzuki since your brother got it because his wear factors are different from yours. You would never had known this had you not been doing testing- it's a perfect example of the usefulness of oil analysis. Your manual means exactly what it says- use a 10W-40 if the average ambient temp is 40F or lower, and use a 20W-50 if it's above. You cannot go wrong following their recommendations. I will, however, throw a wrench into this by saying I see no reason why a 15W-50 would not be acceptable for your application. Additionally, some of the highest-quality 100% fully synthetic oils are so good that the manufacturers label them with Winter ratings that match what the consumer is used to seeing (like 20W), even though they easily meet the ratings of a 15W or even a 10W. Instead of introducing "new" grades with the same oil formulation, it's just easier and cheaper to keep the traditional ratings (a 10W-40 and a 20W-50) even though the 10W can be used below the 10W rating, and the 20W can be used below the 20W rating. I live in Florida, where heat is the biggest challenge, but here in North Florida it's not uncommon to get into the upper 20's during winter. Even so, all of my motorcycles have always gotten the highest viscosity approved by the manufacturer, and that means 9 out of 10 of them get 20W-50- even if I'm riding in ambient temps lower than suggested for that weight. Why do I do it? Because I always use the highest-quality 100% fully synthetic oil available, and I have the Blackstone Lab reports that prove their superiority and continued performance. My personal experience is that the 20W-50 I put in my bikes has no issues what-so-ever with operating in temps below 40F. Your results may vary. | ||
| Reepicheep |
FWIW, my XB9SX consumed tons of oil when I ran Castrol 5w50 full synthetic in it. No consumption problems with full synthetic 20w50 (valvoline and castrol)... both summer and fall. So there really is some sort of major and relevant difference between the two oils in day to day operation, even during normal summer temps. So I've just decided I am not an oil expert, and I just buy and run whatever full synthetic 20w50 oil I can find, and change it out between 3500 and 4000 miles. | ||
| Thefleshrocket |
Redbuelljunkie, thanks for the detailed explanation. I did a bunch of browsing on BITOG (Bobistheoilguy.com) last night and while it seems that a lot of people are using TDT (turbo diesel truck) 5W40 in their bikes which claims to have excellent shear resistance, the oil has still thinned to around 30 weight in just 2000 miles according to the UOAs (u-something oil analysis) I've seen posted. The 15W50 I've been using has much better shear resistance--in both of the UOAs I had done on it in the GSX-R1000, it had only sheared down to about 40 weight even after 7000-8000 miles and having a slightly above-average fuel dilution (which thins oil as well). I did notice that Mobil1 offers a 0W50 racing oil, which sounds very interesting. http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Oils/ Mobil_1_Racing_0W-50.aspx It sounds like their 15W50 but with extra ZDDP and a higher viscosity range. Strangely, in the FAQ, it says that it shouldn't be used in motorcycle engines due to higher levels of molybdenum which can cause wet clutch slippage, but I also found a Q&A with a Mobil rep posted on BITOG in which he stated that the Racing 0W50 was okay for bikes. Also, I haven't seen any UOAs for it yet so I don't know how well it actually performs, how much detergent it has in it, or if it will stand up to several-thousand-mile oil change intervals. Also, a 6-pack is $99 (on Mobil1's website, including shipping) which is almost $17 a quart--prohibitively expensive, at least for me without knowing its properties and behavior. The bottom line is that I think I'll stick with the 15W50 for now as it sounds like it should do fine for near-freezing cold starts (and work well for everything else). (Message edited by thefleshrocket on November 03, 2010) | ||
| Redbuelljunkie |
Your BITOG research provides further proof that using multi-grade oils with a large numerical difference between the Winter rating and the weight do not perform well in motorcycle applications. Based on this evidence, I would not consider using a 0W-50 in any motorcycle. Your conclusion to continue using the 15W-50 is a good one, in my opinion. Continued oil analysis will let you know if any issues arise. | ||
| Thefleshrocket |
Redbuelljunkie, the 5W40 and the 15W50 have the same disparity between the winter rating and the "hot" rating, so I don't necessarily think that having a 35 point spread between both numbers is what's causing the 5W40 to drop its viscosity so much quicker. I noticed similar results from people who are running 15W40--usually only a couple thousand miles before the oil has significantly dropped viscosity. I think the issue here might be that oils thinner than 50 weight simply get chewed up more quickly when used in motorcycles. As such, I don't necessarily think that the 0W50 would be a poor choice for a motorcycle application. If it has sufficient levels of detergents (it has a LOT of antiwear agents according to the MDS) and good shear stability, it could offer the best of both worlds--easy cold starts and sufficient hot protection as well. However, I don't have the time or money to play guinea pig for that, so I'll stick with the tried and true 15W50. | ||
| Redbuelljunkie |
Yes, it's a combination effect- as viscosity improvers (VI) in the additive package of an oil shear (exacerbated by wet-clutch applications), they loose their ability to moderate viscosity. Additionally, as the base oil degrades faster due to accelerated viscosity loss, the other additives are strained to handle the increased contaminants. This causes the additive package to break down and become a contaminant itself- which can actually cause sludge, deposits and varnishes. When two oils have the same percentage of additives, the one with the higher base viscosity will be less vulnerable to viscosity degradation. The higher viscosity base oil will resist breakdown better than the lower viscosity oil, and therefore provide more protection for a longer period of time. This is how two oils with the same numerical spread between the Winter rating and weight can have different wear performance in the same application. Again, I will say- if the 0W-30, 0W-40, and 0W-50 oils worked well in a motorcycle application, the manufacturers would recommend them. Since they don't, and in my research I cannot find any evidence that supports their ability to perform well in wet-clutch applications, I have to conclude they're not a good choice. I am not a petrochemical engineer, though, so I could be wrong. Since you've taken an interest in the details of oil performance, I've included a few links for you to peruse. There's some really fascinating information out there... These charts provide an amazing amount of information about how oils perform at different temperatures. Make sure to click on the graphs for the different temperature ranges in order to get the big picture. I printed out all of the graphs and spent days analyzing the information: http://www.widman.biz/English/Tables/Graph-motors. html And here's some other interesting topics: http://www.ideas4ag-ed.com/uploads/3/7/0/4/3704787 /stan_toepfer_understanding_motor_oil_viscosity.pd f http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/989/fluid -degradation-causes http://74.125.155.132/scholar?q=cache:Jbn2VKlqDlQJ :scholar.google.com/&hl=en&as_sdt=40000 http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/475/oil-b reakdown http://www.aftonchemical.com/Regions/Europe-Middle +East-Africa/Knowledge+Center/Introduction+to+Lubr icants/Additive+Compounds.htm | ||
| Thefleshrocket |
I've been reading through those links and while they are informative, I have more questions. According to the first link, it looks like there is a significant difference in viscosity between 20W50, 15W40 and 5W40 at 0C. The 15W40 at 8C flows as well as the 5W40 at 0C, and the 15W40 appears to be about twice as thick as the 5W40 at 0C. The viscosity of all of the oils at 100C is within 5 points (except the 5W30, which is about 4 points lower). So, it looks like there is a significant improvement in cold pumpability with a 5W40 over a 15W40 but not very much difference in viscosity between the 40-weights and 50-weights at hot temp. It would seem that a 5W40 would be better overall since it flow much easier when cold but isn't very much thinner when hot. Unfortunately, that doesn't take into account viscosity loss due to shearing, and if a 5W40 was to shear down to a 30-weight, it would have a more significant difference between it and a 50-weight when hot. I'm going to keep reading your links and will comment as I get through them. Thanks, they've definitely been helpful! <Edit> Okay, the rest of the links pretty much went over my head in regards to the content of oil and causes of degradation, etc. Still, the first two were very informative. (Message edited by thefleshrocket on November 08, 2010) | ||
| Thefleshrocket |
Actually, there is something that came to mind. The one unknown variable here is how hot the oil in an 1125 motor gets. Given the aggressive use of the cooling fans, the coolant temp usually stays at or under 190F even on hot days, unless there's much stop-and-go or low-speed riding. The 1125 doesn't have an oil temp gauge, but my wife's 300C does and it seems like the oil temperature stays very close to the coolant temp under normal (gentle) driving conditions--usually around 205F. The oil will get as high as 250F under aggressive driving but it cools back down to close to the coolant temp after a mile or so of gentle cruising. The 1125's oil may get that hot too, but it also has an external oil cooler which should help keep the oil cooler than the 300C's V8. So, does Harley recommend a 20W50 for the 1125 because the engine's oil temp can get high enough to need the added viscosity of a 50-weight, or is it because a 40-weight (especially a non-synthetic one) will shear out of grade more quickly than a 50-weight? (Or is it just a knee-jerk reaction since the air-cooled cruiser motors need a 50-weight because of the extreme temperatures that they are sometimes run under, and the 1125's is assumed to have similar oil requirements to an air-cooled cruiser motor?) | ||
| Kirb |
So, does Harley recommend a 20W50 for the 1125 because.... ...because that's what they already sell and Rotax said 'OK'. | ||
| Boogiman1981 |
Redbuell in the interest of being accurate. not bashing you bro as you gave some really good info. the Flash point is the temp at which a substance begins to emit ignitable vapors. not the point at which the substance ignites. auto ignition temps are higher than flash points some by only a few degrees some by a lot. | ||
| Redbuelljunkie |
Boogiman, you are correct. If I had been more specific I would have said that the flash point is where the oil will vaporize, and given the right conditions (like one might find in an internal combustion engine) vaporization may promote combustion. My comment suggests that the flash point is where the oil will auto-ignite and sustain combustion, and that is not correct. My bad. More importantly to the oil issue, though, is the effect a lower flash point has on an oil. Even without combustion, if an oil reaches its flash point, this will cause a characteristic change in the oil that will affect both its performance and volume. Vaporized oil is lost oil, and the byproduct is contaminants- neither of which are good for an engine. (Message edited by Redbuelljunkie on November 09, 2010) | ||
| Boogiman1981 |
yes most def. Not worried about it combusting am concerned with thermal breakdown and accelerated shear due to thermal effects as well as additive package wear for same reasons | ||
| Freezerburn840 |
I use a 15w50 or 10w50 synthetic blend MA or MA2 rating in mine and live in SoCal. Kirb hit the nail on the head with Harley. Rotax said okay with the 20w50w because it was close enough and Harley's main market is their cruisers and 20w50 or a 60wt is ideal because of the extreme heat. But to add as much the same company "Rotax" that built the motor. In the newest Aprilia Tuono and or Mille v990 60 degree v twin calls for a 15w50 synthetic. The Can Am Spyder v990 60 degree twin calls for a 5w40. | ||
| Thefleshrocket |
Freezerburn, are the Aprilia and CanAm motors the same? If so, perhaps the recommendation of 15w50 in the former and 5w40 in the latter is due to them expecting the 3-wheeler to be ridden more gently than the sportbike. I wish I knew just how low of a viscosity the 1125 motor could handle before risking excessive wear. That would make it much easier to figure out how safe a 5w40 would be. | ||
| Freezerburn840 |
Not sure. I am thinking clearances for the development of the Can Am Spyder are more tight and like you said the Spyder seeing less redline operation and probably detuned with less horsepower output. I just browse on Can Am forums and find it interesting that BRP Rotax makes the motor and they recommend a lower viscosity in their Manual. I think our motor more closely resembles the Aprilia Tuono and Mille. So to be safe anything 50wt. I just like the better flow at startup with 10w or 15w. | ||
| Freezerburn840 |
Flash i just think 5w40 or 10w40 is good if your ambient temp that you are riding is not getting higher than 40 degrees. Anything else I think the Buell likes the 10w50 or 15w50. At least mine does. I dont think a 20w50 or anything 60wt would be necessary unless we live in death valley where it gets to 115 degrees. | ||
| Thefleshrocket |
I actually think a 10w40 would be fine for the 1125r if it held its viscosity. I've been reading a lot on BITOG and it sounds like both the Mobil1 and Amsoil 10w40 motorcycle oils do a very good job of maintaining their viscosity. Apparently the new version of Mobil1 15w50 is not nearly as shear resistant as the old 15w50 extended performance that I used to use so I will probably be changing it out at 3000-4000 miles and then give one of those 10w40s a try. | ||
| Thefleshrocket |
It seems like Amsoil's 10w40 motorcycle oil holds is viscosity very well throughout it's entire life. There's also a 0w40 that Amsoil markets for powersports vehicles. If that holds it's viscosity as well as the 10w40, I think that would be the way to go. Unfortunately I haven't been able to find any uoas for the 0w40 so if I do try it, I may have to send in a sample for analysis after 1000 miles to see how well it's doing. | ||
| Thefleshrocket |
Unfortunately I haven't been able to find anything terribly helpful about the Amsoil 0W40 vs. the 10W40. I did learn something though--I thought that an oil was natively the second number, and had viscosity modifiers to make it act like the first number when cold. Apparently that was bass-ackwards. And, oil can apparently drop down from its second number viscosity all the way to its lower number viscosity when under extreme pressures in certain parts of the motor. So a 20w oil will likely protect better under those circumstances than a 10w or a 5w. I took my Daytona 675 and my 1125R out for short rides on Saturday and even though the ambient temp was around 45F, both bikes started and ran fine, and shifted relatively smoothly while cold and very smoothly when warm. Maybe I should just stick with the Mobil1 15W50. I'll send in a sample from the 1125 and see how it comes back before I fill the bike's crankcase with anything. |
