| Author | Message | ||
     Blake |
>>> Ben's first year was nothing compared to Jorge's first year in the class You are right, Ben had never seen most of the tracks where Jorgé was already intimately familiar with them and where Jorgé was welcomed onto a world championship factory team to ride the world championship bike. | ||
| Trojan |
You are right, Ben had never seen most of the tracks where Jorgé was already intimately familiar with them and where Jorgé was welcomed onto a world championship factory team to ride the world championship bike. You are making the facts fit to Ben's advantage again Blake. Track knowledge is a big Red Herring when it comes to MotoGP as they only race at each track once a year and surface changes etc happen between visits. Lack of testing means that they never visit most tracks more than one weekend per year. It isn't like club racers that have a 'favourite' track they race on every week! Racers at the top of the sport learn tracks very very quickly (most now use Playstation/XBox simulators to learn layouts before ever visiting actual tracks). You only need to look at the times set even in first practice for Silverstone and Aragon by all of the top guys to see that. The people who really do need the knowledge are the technical team who have to set the bike up for each track, and they accumulate this over the years. Ben has a very experienced team under him and even if Tom Houseworth didn't know the tracks his techs and Herve Poncheral did. Also, Ben may have had a 'satellite' bike from Yamaha but it was undoubtedly the second best bike on the grid (with considerable factory support) next to the factory Yamahas and certainly better than some 'factory' rides in MotoGP. The only way to judge who is the better rider really is count up the number of major world championships that they have won, and on that score Rossi has a long way to go before he is bettered by Lorenzo or anyone else for that matter. | ||
| Jaimec |
And Jorge, at only 23, HAS a long career ahead of him. | ||
| Blake |
Matt, You don't imagine that had Ben arrived at the factory team from the start as did Lorenzo that his podiums might have turned into race wins? That his 4th or 5th place finishes might have turned into podiums? You contend that Ben's bike was better than the factory Hondas and Ducatis? Then you are apparently saying that the factory Honda and Ducati Riders are much better than Ben. Bull. | ||
| Trojan |
You contend that Ben's bike was better than the factory Hondas and Ducatis? Then you are apparently saying that the factory Honda and Ducati Riders are much better than Ben. No I'm not. What I am saying is that the Yamaha M1 is widely acknowledged in the MotoGP paddock as being the best overall bike of the current era. That includes the 'satellite' bikes. It may be a bit slower on the straights butit hadnles much better and is easier to set up for different riders than any of the other manufacturers bikes. Honda and Ducati have also had some serious chassis problems all year that they are only now starting to address and Suzuki are just a buit of a sideshow. However if you put all the top riders on the same bike do I think Spies would be the winner? No I don't, not yet anyway. Rossi, Lorenzo, Pedrosa and Stoner are all quicker when fit and more experienced than Ben, and even by his own admission he has a way to go before he is at their level. Lorenzo in particular is in a different league to everyone else and I don't see Spies (or anyone else) getting near him at the start of next year. | ||
| Davegess |
And Jorge, at only 23, HAS a long career ahead of him. Sure but call me when he has won half of what Rossi has won and we can discuss who is better. Motorcycle racing is littered with young guns who didn't last. No doubt Jorge is very good but how many titles will he win? | ||
| Trojan |
I agree Dave, Like him or hate him, Rossi has set the benchmark for judging success as a MotoGP rider in the modern era and until somebody can equal or beat his accomplishments in the class (and GP racing in general) then they can't really be judged to be better. He has lost championships in the past for various reasons but the mark of a true champions is that he has always managed tobattle his way back to the top again (while most of the 'interlopers' drop by the wayside eventually). Spies and Crutchlow 9and Lorenzo, Stoner, Pedrosa etc...) have a mountain to climb if either of them are to get even close to his achievements in the sprot  | ||
| Jaimec |
You'll never get an argument from me that Rossi isn't the GOAT. I'm just saying his star is setting and Jorge's is only now just rising. Will he be a flash in the pan? Who knows... maybe, maybe not. Time will tell. I'm just saying with Rossi gone, Yamaha is still in good hands. Jorge came alone with the 800s. Will he be able to adapt to the upcoming 1000s? Rossi was able to win on 500cc two strokes, 990cc four strokes and even the 800s. Will Jorge be as flexible? It's gonna be a fun ride finding out. | ||
| Vagelis46 |
Grand finale today for the 2010 !! Great season it was! Simoncelli has improved his speed in the last races , he is really pushing and make the rest of the Honda riders look slow. So can Spies beat him today , to prove that his is the #1 rookie ?? Because so far everybody is talking about Spies , and have forgot about Simoncelli ....... A great race today is expected , I hope Stoner doesn't crash and we watch a Stoner vs Lorenzo battle for the top spot. | ||
| Crusty |
Nicky Hayden was fastest in the warm up. Hopefully, he'll be in contention for a spot on the box. | ||
| Vagelis46 |
Great great race .. I did not like Lorenzo shaking his head , after he could not get past Simoncelli . What was he expecting ??? Simoncelli just letting him pass ??? He is a bad drama queen , tshirts-flags-celebrations , for me they all look bad. Also Rossi kissing the M1 after the race looked pathetic. Once again the Duc was miserable for poor Hayden , and had a good taste of what Stoner had all year long. As soon as Hayden felt confident and started to push hard , he suddenly lost the front and there is no way to save it. Compare that to the moment Lorenzo had with Simoncelli, when he 100% lost front&rear but suddenly the bike stayed upright. Glad to see Stoner move to Honda next year , because for one more time,Spies showed today the the current factory Honda riders are 2nd rate. Pedrosa is inconsistent , he either wins by 10sec one week and the next race he is 6th , and Dovi is not that fast . Simoncelli had a great performance with a 2nd rate bike. He is very strong and he fights like a lion. Look forward to the test on Tuesday , that will show 1. How faster the factory M1 is from the Tech3 , 2. How good the Duc really is 3.What Stoner can do on the Honda | ||
| Jaimec |
Not too sure on your three points there. Ben will be testing a 2011 "Factory" M1 so it isn't really a direct comparison to the 2010 satellite bike. Rossi and Burgess won't have had a chance to do much of anything with the Duc on Tuesday other than get a feel for it. The proof will be the first test in 2011 I think... when the factory gets to work on Rossi and Burgess' "suggestions." But I will agree on your third point. | ||
| Vagelis46 |
No matter what many people say , Spies rookie season is extraordinary and as good as Lorenzo's rookie year if we take into consideration the fact that he was on a satellite team. Next year he will challenge Lorenzo. His Tuesday time will be a clear indication of factory Vs satellite bikes. Hopefully Rossi's influence will force Ducati to reconsider their design , because at the moment the Duc is very inconsistent. Stoner is overidding the bike to get his great results , but he pays that with many crashes. Stoner will fly on the Honda !!! | ||
| Paint_shaker |
It wasn't the Duc, it was Hayden. Nearly ALL the bikes were upset coming off the corners and sometimes going in... The great riders were able to overcome it... | ||
| Trojan |
Great great race .. Did you watch a different race to me? It was as dull as the rest of the season once Lorenzo got in front (which was pretty inevitable really on current form). The rest of the race was the usual boring procession livened only by the brief fight for 4th place. With Hayden crashing and Capirossi once agin failing toget round for the full distance you could score points on a Moped! And why oh why did Pramac put Checa on the bike for two races just to trail around 4 seconds a lap off the pace? Better to have given a new guy a ride out for experience than to waste money on a has been GP rider just to 'please' sponsors (although I would not be pleased to see my colours so far back if I were a sponsor!) Thankfully the Moto2 race was once again a thriller with any of 5 riders in with a chance of winning on the final lap. Now THAT was a great race Spies rookie season is extraordinary and as good as Lorenzo's rookie year if we take into consideration the fact that he was on a satellite team. But he wasn't on the same factory bike (allegedly) so we can't take it into account. To finish 6th in a rookie season has been done before by plenty of people, winning in year two will be the test as thathas ony been done by a selct few Don't read too much into testing times this week either, as there are plenty of riders who won't want to risk further injury going into the short winter break (Rossi, Spies, Capirossi, De Puniet, Simoncelli at least) and who have surgery planned to correct injuries from this season! Some will be riding the 2010 bikes while others will have early versions of the 2011 model. I doubt if anyone will have the definitive 2011 race bike to test. Even with the top riders swapping seats next year MotoGP still needs more riders and more depth of talent to make it exciting, and that isn't going to happen until 2012 at the earliest (probably 2013 before we get more competitive bikes), so I expect more processions next year even if they are in different colours. Moto2 on the other hand looks to be even better than this year, with Mika Kallio joining Scott Redding at Marc VDS and Bradley Smith moving to Tech 3, Michele Pirro and Yuki Takahashi at Gresini and Kenan Sofuoglu from WSS (to whichever team?) and it is going to be a classic season for Moto2 That is one series I can't wait to see the start of next year with any number of riders capable of winning on a regular basis (Message edited by trojan on November 08, 2010) (Message edited by trojan on November 08, 2010) | ||
| Blake |
"To finish 6th in a rookie season has been done before by plenty of people" Not on a satellite team. | ||
| Trojan |
Not on a satellite team. Satellite Schmatellite Dovizioso fonished 5th in 2008 on a 'bog standard customer variety' satellite Scot/JIR Honda that was nowhere near the factory level of Spies bike this year. In 2007 John Hopkins finsihed 4th on a Suzuki that was again a lot less than Yamaha factory level. Both of these achieved this with more than 20 riders on the grid, not the pathetic 16 we have managed this year at most races. Nobody knows (probably not even Ben) just how far removed from the factory bike his bike has been in the latter half of this season, but I am 150% sure it wasn't far off. If you look at the relative performance of both Tech 3 riders/bikes, examine the engine usage and changes clearly and then count the increasing number of blue 'Factory Yamaha' techs on Bens side of the garage and everything points to Spies getting 'factory' assistance from mid season onwards despite their public denials and protestations. However we will never know because you can be sure they won't tell. Next year is another matter and we shall see just how well he does on 'full' factory machinery. I think he will do well, but don't expect him to beat the 'fab 4' too often, but I am open to be proved wrong of course | ||
| Jaimec |
Boring race. Matt, you need a new TV set or something. Maybe the last few laps were boring, or maybe you're just not a Lorenzo fan... but that was the most exciting race I've seen in a long time. Lots of passing, the start of the race had NO bearing on the final outcome even though it looked to be another Stoner cake walk. Lorenzo's spectacular save after bumping Simoncelli. Both Rossi and Lorenzo losing multiple positions only to fight back toward the end. And Ben Spies schooling Simoncelli and Dovisioso in the art of "Block Passing." Even watching Stoner riding at the ragged edge to try and prevent Lorenzo's pass was exciting stuff. He almost lost it on the paint at one point. What was boring about ANY of that? Or is Vagelis right, and since Rossi DIDN'T win, you weren't interested?? | ||
| Vagelis46 |
The quality of racing and the passes made in Valencia were phenomenal and kept everybody on their feet. Lorenzo kept his promise and gave Rossi another lesson about who is the fastest. Since Lorenzo secured his title , he turned into the Lorenzo of the start of the year , super-fast. Lorenzo managed to beat Rossi on the same package this year , which is really impressive. Bravo to Lorenzo , I just wish he did not try to imitate Rossi's celebrations and the rest of the drama . I do think that Spies , once again , did better than expected this year. Better than Edwards, Toseland , Bayliss and all the other WSBK riders. He was on a 2nd-rate M1 and the only performances that I count , are the ones on the tracks he had seen before , which is really great stuff. | ||
| Bads1 |
Now lorenzo will be on a bigger cc bike. Can he develop a bike like Rossi??? Lorenzo got to win on a bike that Rossi made good. Lets see if he is what he is now next year. | ||
| Vagelis46 |
You mean 2012 , since next year it will still be 800cc | ||
| Bads1 |
None the less they aren't done developing. | ||
| Trojan |
Matt, you need a new TV set or something. Maybe the last few laps were boring, or maybe you're just not a Lorenzo fan... but that was the most exciting race I've seen in a long time. The first few laps were exciting enough, but I want to see a race for 28 laps (or whatever the full distance is) rather than a race for 10 laps and then a procession which is what we got. We also got exactly the same names/bikes in the top 6-8 that we always get, week in week out. if I wanted to watch that kind of racing I can tune in to F1 any time. I like to see Rossi win but that doesn't mean that I don't enjoy close racing whoever is racing. One of the best races I have ever seen was when Elias beat Rossi by a hairs width a few years ago. MotoGP really is in dire need of a revamp and soon, otherwise it will become the sideshow to Moto2 at the rate it is devaluing right now. Top riders changing brands will reignite the interest for a short while, but that is not enough, and unless the new 2012 rules bring in a lot of new 'competitve' bikes and riders it will wither and die before long. It is not enough to bring in afew backmarkers just to make up the numbers as F1 have done. Moto2 is much more exciting, has more riders capable of winning races and championships, and is attracting far more interest from sponsors, teams and riders than MotoGP is at the moment. Next year Moto2 will be even better with the reigning Supersport champion Sofuoglu plus Kallio & Espargaro from MotoGP, and Marquez/Smith from 125 all at the sharp end. Compare this to MotoGP where we will have fewer competitive bikes/riders than this year taking part with just one new face amongst them (Karel Abraham, and he won't eb anywhere near the front end!). As far as I am concerned Moto2 is the 'must not miss' now race every weekend and MotoGP is just the sideshow event | ||
| Vagelis46 |
You must be living on another planet. MotoGP was and is the king of moto racing , and this year was very-very exciting and interesting. We had 2 rookies that are making a big effect , Spies and Simoncelli plus the usual top riders , so next year with riders changing bikes will be even better. Of course , if Rossi got the title and did better in the last races ........... | ||
| Trojan |
You must be living on another planet. MotoGP was and is the king of moto racing , and this year was very-very exciting and interesting. It's called planet realism that I live on. How was this year exciting? I watched every race except one and there were only one or two that raised my pulse above comatose levels. How many different winners did we see this year? None, they were all won by the same old 'fab 4' yet again. This means that the same 4 people have won pretty much every race since the 800 era began (excepting occasional wet and flag to flag races and they are few and far between). How many 'close' races for the lead did we see up until the last lap in MotoGP this year compared to Moto2 or 125? The two 'super rookies' never really bothered the top 4 on a regular basis and changing manufacturer will not increase the size or quality of the MotoGP grid, so next year we will have more of the same I think. I would love to think that next year will be better in terms of racing excitement and I will be only too happy if that happens, but I won't hold my breath thanks. MotoGP has become boring and predictable and it is going to take a huge effort to make it exciting again. Changing colours won't be enough. MotoGP was the king of motorcycle racing, but until it gets its act together it is becoming the F1 of motorcycle racing in terms of excitement and close racing. Thankfully Moto2 is better maybe a chage to a one make engine rule in MotoGP as well would improve the sport  | ||
| Glitch |
http://vimeo.com/16528486 | ||
| Vagelis46 |
OK , so lets keep the best 4 riders in the world vanished in a deserted island so that other people start winning in motoGP. (Do not forget to include Adrianna and Uzzio , so that all of them are sexually pleased  ) Rossi , Doohan , Rainey .... and the rest of the top riders of the past used to dominate the series , so what can we do ?? So what do you prefer , close racing between average riders ??? You could turn up on any local track and watch that any weekend and for free. Not me !!! This is motoGP !!!! And this year was really great. Watching Lorenzo chasing Stoner down in the last race, was as exciting as the whole WSBK season for me....... Elias dominated moto2 , but he will not make the top10 in motoGP. The level between motoGP and everything else , well there is no comparison. | ||
| Jaimec |
So having four or maybe five riders vying for wins is boring? To me, that sounds better than the "Good Old Days" when you only had TWO riders vying for the title (Rainey/Schwantz, Roberts/Spencer, etc). | ||
| Trojan |
So having four or maybe five riders vying for wins is boring? But most weeks they aren't vying for wins are they. What we get is one or two riders clearing off with 5-10 second gaps between riders right down the field except for the occasional mid field scrap. We very seldom see a fight for the lead between even two riders that lasts more than a lap or two. The same combination of 4 riders have won EVERY race of the 800 era except for a couple of freak weather races. The same 4 riders are also at the front every practice/qualifying/race regardless of track etc. Now THAT is boring. I am a fan of Valentino rossi and like to see him win, but I don't like to see anyone cruise to an easy win because that isn't racing to me, its a procession. Until we get more equal machinery throughout the grid and more riders it will be the same and won't change, regardless of uniform colour or bike underneath the top 4-5 guys. The only thing we have to look forward to next year that is in any way differnt to this year is that 3 or 4 guys will be on different bikes, but the order won't change much I can promise you. You can almost guarantee that the testing times at the end of day 2 will reflect the same old order withmaybe the additon of Spies/Simoncelli somewhere in the mix occasionally. You mention the days of Rainey/Schwantz etc but you must remember that the sport was in a similar crisis back then with diminishing grid numbers and sagging attendance figures. They tried to bolster things by licencing Harris and ROC to make chassis kits but that just added riders to the back of the field and didn't make it any more competitive up front. This situation was eventually one of the reasons for ditching the 2 strokes and running the 4 stroke GP bikes because Honda reckoned they would attract more teams and be easier for a manufacturer to run more 'factory' bikes (Ha Ha!). The sport really needs a big shakeup and not just the addition of some more backmarkers on home built privateer bikes to bolster the grid numbers at the back, and until it does it will gradually lose its attraction and status for many people including me. Moto2 has shown that a competitive world series can be run affordably and competitively and MotoGP should take a good look at it and learn lessons from it. | ||
| Jaimec |
Day 1 Test times: http://www.motogp.com/en/TestResults/MotoGP+Valenc ia+Test+2011 |
