| Author | Message | ||
     Trojan |
The BMW seems worse than the Suzuki at this point. Remember that this is very early days for 2011 testing so we don't know what they are working on or testing in particular yet. The advantage that BMW have is that they are continuing to develop the bike and have a full factory test team in place, whereas Suzuki carried out no improvements to their bike since the start of the 2010 season and don't intend to support their team next year from the factory. By the time the 2011 season starts I fully expect Leon Haslam to be at the sharp end of the times along with Biaggi, Rea and Laverty. Melandri could be the surprise package but he has been so inconsistent in recent years that it is hard to see how he will fit in at Yamaha. | ||
| Blake |
The only deficiency in the 2010 Yamaha R1 WSBK effort for 2010 versus 2009 was the absence of Ben Spies and his crew chief. | ||
| Blake |
BMW finished 11th in the championship this year. The reality of what it takes to run at the top in professional motorcycle racing is much, much more challenging than most imagine. The BMW factory is learning a very tough lesson. | ||
| Trojan |
The only deficiency in the 2010 Yamaha R1 WSBK effort for 2010 versus 2009 was the absence of Ben Spies and his crew chief. That would be true had Yamaha not carried what turned out to be very poor 'upgrades' over the winter that ruined the bike as it was last year, and the introduction of the new spec Pirelli tyre that the Yamaha just didn't handle well on. The problem is that comparing last years bike to this years racer really isn't that simple. Crutchlow was consistently faster at every track this year than either of last years Yamaha riders yet only managed a couple of wins and didn't win the series. Last year Haga pushed Spies all the way to the last round for the championship and this year never looked ike he was in the hunt. Things change in a very short time in racing so comparisons are flawed unfortunately, and you can only really compare riders compaeting in the same season on the same bikes. | ||
| Blake |
Spies would have won no matter. Losers make excuses. Winners find ways to win. WSBK lap times improved significantly due to the new better gripping tires. Pretending Crutchlow is faster than Spies is not being honest, and you know this. It's telling how you choose to forget the DNFs thrust upon Spies through no fault of his own, or that he'd not seen the tracks before. The difference in Yamaha's WSBK performance this year versus last was the lack of a Ben Spies. Ask Tom Sykes. What position did he finish last year as Ben's team mate? I guess that was due to his bike too? Your bias is showing mate.  | ||
| Trojan |
WSBK lap times improved significantly due to the new better gripping tires. Pretending Crutchlow is faster than Spies is not being honest, and you know this. Not quite true. Yamaha found that their bike didn't work AT ALL on the new Pirelli rubber and only found improvements later in the year on the older rubber re-introduced after complaints by numerous teams. However Crutchlow in practice/qualifying was faster even before the change of tyres but they couldn't make the new tyres work for a race distance. Arguing who is faster between riders in different years is pointless. I have lost count of the Rossi vs Hailwood vs Roberts etc discussions that have gone round and round without any definitive answer simply because everything changes year by year. Next year Cal and Ben will be in the same series on ostensibly the same bike, but even then we won't know what the difference in spec will be and Ben has a year start on Cal so maybe we won't know for 2 years or more, if ever. Ben Spies is certainly a very talented racer, as is Cal Crutchlow. However Yamaha did well before either of them arrived and will do so again long after they have retired. As for Spies DNF's 'thrust upon him', I always thought that if you crash it is usually your own fault. | ||
| Jaimec |
They weren't ALL crashes, Matt. He had some stupid mechanical failures as well... which is why he cleaned house and brought in his own tech people. | ||
| Trojan |
My overall point was that it is very difficult/impossible to compare riders from different seasons. Just take Nori Haga as a good example. 2009 he is in with a shot at the title until the very last race but in 2010 he struggled toget into the top 5 most weekends. Does that make the people who beat him 2010 better than the people he beat in 2009? No it just means things like bike specs and tyres were different so you can't draw any conclusions from it. Comparing riders on the same bike during the same season is pretty much the only way to do it fairly, and that doesn't happen very often as you usually get a A and a B rider of different abilities/experience in a team. | ||
| Blake |
Spies pedigree and accomplishment so far outshine anything that Crutchlow has accomplished, it's silly to try to equate the two. Ben suffered running out of fuel on the final lap while running well in the lead and he was crashed out by Fabrizio in nothing less than a true boneheaded maneuver. Neither of those was Ben's fault. Only one was a crash, one that Fabrizio fully admitted was his fault and that shouldn't have happened. Was there another mechanical failure as well? As a rookie to the WSBK series, running a bike completely new to him, on tracks completely new to him Ben Spies took almost all the poles and won 14 races. The other Yamaha rider finished 8th in the championship and never set foot on the podium. Crutchlow is simply not in the same league as Ben Spies. What Yamaha lacked this year was Ben Spies, nothing else. That Crutchlow and team took all season to figure out the bike is a poor excuse. | ||
| Jaimec |
Blake, I seem to remember a race where Ben had to pull out because the bike wouldn't shift... | ||
| Lightstick |
There was the race when Spies ran out of fuel in the last corner while leading, also. | ||
| Jaimec |
Blake already mentioned that one above. | ||
| Trojan |
Crutchlow is simply not in the same league as Ben Spies. I think I'll wait to see if that is true  Cal is still very inexperienced compared to Spies and has only been racing 'properly' since 2003 (he had some outings in Aprilia one make 125 series prior to that). Since then he has pretty much ridden a different bike and in a different series every year but has consistently shown he can run at the front on any bike at any circuit. You will not find a tougher competitor than Cal and I think he will put a few noses (and egos) out of joint when he arrives in MotoGP. You say that Spies had to learn a new bike and new tracks for 2009 when he won the WSB title, well so did Cal in the same year to become WSS champion in far more emphatic style than Spies, but was overshadowed by the bigger class. 2009: SUPERSPORT WORLD CHAMPION 2008: 3rd, British Superbike Championship 2007: 9th, British Superbike Championship 2006: British Supersport Champion 2005: 3rd, British Supersport Championship 2004: 10th, British Supersport Championship 2003: 2nd, Virgin Mobile Yamaha R6 Cup | ||
| Blake |
Thanks for making my point Matt. Ben Spies is so much more experienced? He's one year older than Cal and started racing at the national level 3 years before Cal did. Cal has demonstrated nothing remotely as impressive as Ben Spies on a big bike. One supersport championship is nice, but it is minor league compared to Superbike and amounts to little compared to what Ben Spies has achieved. Ben Spies: 2010 MotoGP: One pole position, 2 podium finishes 2009 1st WSBK Championship: 11 pole positions, 14 wins, 17 podiums 2008 1st AMA SBK Championship 2007 1st AMA SBK Championship 2006 1st AMA SBK Championship 2003 1st AMA FX Championship (Message edited by Blake on November 04, 2010) (Message edited by blake on November 04, 2010) | ||
| Jaimec |
Blake, wasn't there a year Ben won both the AMA Superbike and AMA Superstock championships? | ||
| M1combat |
Cal Crutchlow? Seriously Matt? Ok he's fast but he's also "average" in the fast guy group. Like Lewis Hamilton. They're fast but they aint no Schumacher/Rossi... Spies on the other hand... | ||
| Jaimec |
Confirmed: In 2007, Ben Spies took both the AMA Superbike title with 12 podiums (seven wins) and pole position nine times. He won the title from Mat Mladin by 1 point. That SAME year he took the AMA Superstock title with seven wins, seven pole positions. | ||
| Jaimec |
And a reminder, the LAST person (before Ben's arrival to the Superbike paddock) to beat Mat Mladin in AMA Superbike went on to become the MotoGP World Champion in 2006. Nicky only did it once, when Mat was arguably having an "off year." Ben beat Mat head to head three years in a row and when Mat was at the top of his game. The two of them so dominated AMA racing that the real competition was for third place. Put Ben on top flight factory equipment (like he'll have next year) and let's sit back and watch the fun. | ||
| Trojan |
Cal Crutchlow? Seriously Matt? Ok he's fast but he's also "average" in the fast guy group. Like Lewis Hamilton. They're fast but they aint no Schumacher/Rossi... Spies on the other hand... On what evidence? Spies had it reasonably easy for years in AMA because it was a two man race between him and Mladin. Even if Spies had a bad year he would finish second simply because the depth of talent/equipment was far lower than other championships I'm afraid. Crutchlow has been through the most competitive national racing series in the world and won the WSS series in his first year. To say that WSS is less competitive or somehow lesser than WSB is absolutely wrong. They are just different bikes that's all. Crutchlow absolutely dominated WSS in 2009 and the only rider to even get close was Eugene Laverty (another world class rider). I was never a fan of Crutchlow until this year because I found him to appear arrogant and maybe too straight talking/aggressive for top flight racing, but this year he has shown that his arrogance is actually just supreme cofidence in what he can do and I have no doubt he will surprise a lot of people next year in MotoGP. Ben Spies has done well in his first full year in MotoGP but it is hardly earth shattering. Rossi finsihed 2nd in his Rookie year as did Lorenzo, and even Niall McKenzie finished 5th in his rookie year in the allegedly harder days of Rainey, Schwantz, Doohan etc Spies hasn't yet shown that he can bridge the gap to the 'aliens' on a regular basis in MotoGP but maybe he will on the factory bike (He has no excuses left if he can't!). | ||
| 46champ |
maybe he will on the factory bike (He has no excuses left if he can't!). This is a true statement. On the faster tracks Stoner will either win or crash, Honda will give him more horsepower than anyone else. | ||
| Jaimec |
The level of competition Ben had with Mat was reflected in how Ben practically steamrolled through WSBK in his only year. If he didn't have those mechanical problems, it would've been NO contest. Eleven out of Fourteen pole positions. He won 50% of the races (14) for the season. He set some records that may not be beaten for a very long time. Other than Haga, there was nobody in WSBK even CLOSE, Matt. He steamrolled through that series almost as easily as he did in AMA Superbike. Remember, Neil Hodgson (former WSBK champ) didn't amount to a whole helluva lot of ANYTHING when he came here to race in AMA Superbike. Neither did Jamie Ellis. Don't kid yourself over the level of competition over here... it's as strong here as it is in Europe. | ||
| Vagelis46 |
Spies is top motoGP material , in WSBK he was a lion among zebras. I personally think that Cruchlow is moving to motoGP mainly because Dorna wants a British rider in the series , and Yamaha is willing to play this game. Comparing Crutchlow to Spies is a joke , that makes everybody but some British fans laugh. | ||
| Trojan |
Neil Hodgson (former WSBK champ) didn't amount to a whole helluva lot of ANYTHING when he came here to race in AMA Superbike. Neither did Jamie Ellis. Neither Hodgson nor Ellison ( who is nowhere near the same level to be honest) had competitive machinery due to the AMA tech rules hobbling the Ducati when Hodgson first arrived (Ellison never had anything close to competitive machines with Honda). I'm pretty sure that Hodgson would have done a lot better had he been on the dominant Suzuki that Mladin and Spies had the pleasure of for years in AMA Superbike. Hodgson then suffered what turned out to be a career ending injury after being messed around by Honda, so never had a chance to race on really competitive machinery. Ellison is a journeyman racer who was just lucky enough to marry the daughter of a big sponsor | ||
| Jaimec |
Not too shabby: Marco Melandri faster than Noriyuki Haga's record lap in his first test: http://www.worldsbk.com/en/news/latest-news/4705.h tml | ||
| Jaimec |
First practice of the new year starts tomorrow, with everyone but the BMW Factory squad. No factory Ducati, Haga on an Aprilia and Toseland on an S1000RR. The rider I'm most interested in at the moment is Marco Melandri on the R1. How will he do? And will Max be able to hold on to the Number 1 plate? Should be an exciting season! | ||
| Trojan |
The rider I'm most interested in at the moment is Marco Melandri on the R1. How will he do? And will Max be able to hold on to the Number 1 plate? It appears to be a very close prospect this year, with the BMW's being the unknown factor really since Haslam arrived there. It will be interesting to see how they perform with all the changes they have made (although the factory BMW squad are not at this test apparently). Toseland and Badovini will be there on the BMW Italia bikes so this may give an impression? I think Johnny Rea will give the Aprilias a run for their money and the new Kawasaki looks to be a very good bike so far, so hopefully they can get their injured squad up to speed quickly on the new bike. Hopefully Tom Sykes can finally step out from Spies shadow and show that he is actually a very good racer. I think the factory Kawasaki team will be leaning heavily on him for results until Vermuelen and Lascorz are fully fit. Haga? Who knows how he will go this year on the Aprilia? He certainly doesn't sound too confident when interviewed last week and said he had a lot of work to do yet. Melandri will be the dark horse and if his shoulder is fixed could be the man to beat | ||
| Trojan |
You can see live timing at www.worldsbk.com/livetiming/ It seems that Rea and Biaggi have already established themselves at the top and as th eguys to beat, but here are a few surprises in the order after them | ||
| Trojan |
Final first session times are just in, with a last minute surprise edging into second place! As usual this is just testing so we don't know what was being done by whom with what etc, but it does seem as though both the Yamahas and Carlos Checa are initially strangely off the pace (although Melandri is still nursing his serious shoulder injury). Although I would of course add the caveat that this is just the first session of a full 3 day test schedule, so not indicative of final test times. I would think that Friday afternoon session will give a much better indication of early season form and a statement of intent from certain riders 1 4 Rea J GBR Honda CBR1000RR 2 96 Smrz J CZE Ducati 1098R 3 3 Biaggi M ITA Aprilia RSV4 Factory 4 84 Fabrizio M ITA Suzuki GSX-R1000 5 111 Xaus R ESP Honda CBR1000RR 6 41 Haga N JPN Aprilia RSV4 Factory 7 66 Sykes T GBR Kawasaki ZX-10R 8 2 Camier L GBR Aprilia RSV4 Factory 9 17 Lascorz J ESP Kawasaki ZX-10R 10 121 Berger M FRA Ducati 1098R 11 50 Guintoli S FRA Ducati 1098R 12 52 Toseland J GBR BMW S1000 RR 13 86 Badovini A ITA BMW S1000 RR 14 58 Laverty E IRL Yamaha YZF R1 15 7 Checa C ESP Ducati 1098R 16 33 Melandri M ITA Yamaha YZF R1 (Message edited by trojan on January 26, 2011) | ||
| Jaimec |
Any idea why they're still racing 1098Rs when the 1198R has been out for two years now?? | ||
| Trojan |
No idea  Checa has the Xerox bikes from last year in his garage, so I suspect that the model designation for the factory race bikes hasn't changed even though the bike is actually the 1198. These stats are from the WSBK web site so I would have thought they would get it right. |
