| Author | Message | ||
     Bud |
There’s a very good dealer only a 5 min. drive away from me, ( he has never charged me for a loose tps ( just to check things ) ) But still I want a tps thingy, just to play with ,  I have already made a brake out box as well  Gr,b edited by bud on May 11, 2004 | ||
| Henrik |
from the dealer and motor company's perspective a little bit of proprietary technology is good business, and there is absolutely no crime in that. Not yet ... I think someone here posted about a pending suit against some of the car manufacturers?? Something to the extent of: since the diagnostic tool is proprietary to factory authorized dealers, it's taking away business from the small mom/pop shops who is not allowed to purchase the tool. Otherwise, great discussion! I'm sincerely hoping someone at Buell/MoCo is keeping track, copying/pasting and sending this up through the channels. Hopefully to accomplish more than a few laughs Henrik | ||
| Henrik |
Ah, yes - Glitch - that was the "case" I was referring to. Henrik | ||
| Bigbird |
Besides, if a bike is pinging, why should I have to make an appointment, give up my bike for a couple of days (at the dealers convienance), just to get the timing checked and if that be the problem, have it set? You don't! Based on some of the stuff I've read there will soon be some aftermarket alternatives. Again, if I had known that I wouldn't be able to do my own maintenance, I might not have bought an XB.... ...Yes you do have to take it back to a dealer. Who else has the tools needed to do the work needed to keep the warranty?... ...What I meant was that the technology is already there. They don't have to re-invent the wheel to come up with a "home version". Perhaps we need to take a step back and compare Buell to other makes and models. I can't speak for all of them, but I can speak about BMW motorcycles. Buell bikes need DT for setting TPS and AFV. It is arguable, but there may be feasible ways to get around the timing issue but I haven't tried. Now let's look at BMW. Their DT equivalent is called "Moditech". It's a computer deal just like DT. It is used to retrieve trouble codes and perform various aspects of vehicle diagnostic and service. Since I own a 2004 R1150 GS I can tell you from my research that it seems the Moditech MUST be used to analyze data from the engine computer, it MUST be used to properly bleed the brakes (it runs a bleed test-I'm not kidding), and there are a whole host of other proprietary things that it does that I can't do at home. Even worse, for 2005 BMW has come up with a fuse-less electrical system, and all lights, acessories and instruments are controlled by computers. If a computer detects a short in a circuit it simply shuts that circuit down. And yep, you guessed it, you need the Moditech to diagnose the entire system. So what about Honda? Kawasaki? What about ANY other modern injected motorcycle currently sold as new today? Are you suggesting that they are COMPLETELY serviceable without proprietary tools, computers, and equipment? I already know the answer, and it's a resounding "NO". Just what new motorcycle would you have purchased had you known that Buell bikes need 30 minutes worth of dealership work every 10,000 miles prior to your purchase? I'm not trying to pick on you but I am trying to make a point. It isn't Buell that's causing this. It isn't Harley, either. IT IS THE ENTIRE VEHICLE INDUSTRY! Cars, Trucks, Planes, Motorcycles, they are ALL moving to computer controlled injection which creates the exact same kind of service issues. It is unfair to single out Buell and represent the situation like Buell has done something so wrong. What Buell has done is create a modern, reliable motorcycle that meets present and future emissions standards. One of the drawbacks is it very occasionally needs a couple of things reset, and the aftermarket hasn't quite caught up with this issue because the Buell is a niche product that doesn't sell in huge numbers. One of the things I like about BMW motorcycles and motorcycle discussion boards is that they are some crafty bastages. They really put their heads together and figure out how to effectively work around some of the issues, and then they write tech articles and share the information. I've learned quite alot about my beemers from them, and a couple of years ago I even got to help with some of the fuel injection system investigation. Lots of fun! IMO one of the things HD has done wrong is introduce the race tuners kit for sale. Don't get me wrong, I think it's a fantastic kit and I also think it's awesome that you can buy it. But from a Buell perspective it pisses people off. I can't count the number of times I have heard someone rant about the lack of a Buell equivalent. If HD had never released it for their bikes the Buell owners wouldn't be pissed about not being able to get it for a Buell! I'd be willing to bet HD has done nothing at a loss without the expectation of getting something out of the deal. Of course they expect to get something out of the deal, but there are many instances where they actually lose! I'm talking about a corporate level, not just a dealer level. Here's a fact sheet. It's automotive based, but I was told it was all vehicles included in the act. That is a grass roots proposal. It's not all bad, but it contradicts itself. It claims that the manufacturer does not unconstitutionally lose their rights to their intellectual property but at the same time it demands that car owners and independent shops have FULL ACCESS to all tools, information, and equipment to work on their cars. How is that NOT infringing on the manufacturer's intellectual property rights? My suggestion would be to vote with your pocketbook. If you are unhappy with it from this perspective, don't buy it! Instead purchase something that doesn't fall into this "trap". However keep in mind that you won't be able to buy most of the vehicles offered today. I still want the tool, so I can do it myself. I want to do it myself. I understand. If it were up to me you could buy it. When I've had customers ask to see how DT works I've taken them back to it and shown them. But I can't rent or sell it to them. | ||
| Bomber |
Bird -- you've been extremely patient with us (and goodness knows it ain't always easy or warrented) . . . . .thanks . . .. btw, My daughter gos to Miami of Ohio in Oxford -- you anywhere near there? I've love to drop by and pick up a tshirt (I try to spend at least a few bucks at each good dealer I know, becuase I full understand the profit motive, and I want all you guys around when I'm ready for my next scoot) | ||
| Mikej |
"If HD had never released it for their bikes the Buell owners wouldn't be pissed about not being able to get it for a Buell! " Yes they would still be pissed about not being able to get one. And I think a new BMW just fell off of my future radar screen. No home brake bleeding, no fuses, all computer controlled circuits? Having just experienced a GMC computer controlled circuit fiasco I'm thinking points and rotor might be worth revisiting again.  ps, and yes, thanks for being here. | ||
| Glitch |
Gregg, I think we are on the same page, we just read it from different perspectives. I've not singled out Buell, it's just that I own a Buell and not one of the others. If I did, I'd want one of their tools as well. You don't! I know, and thanks to the BadWeB, we've found a work around. It was just an example to show that the DT is not just a TPS reset tool. IT IS THE ENTIRE VEHICLE INDUSTRY! Exactly! But I can't rent or sell it to them. Rent?, now there's a compromise, even if that's as unobtainable as the tool. It would be a beginning. Thanks for all your time in opening my eyes to another's perspective.  I truly hope I've not Thanks again! edit:My lust for an S1W grows ... edited by Glitch on May 11, 2004 | ||
| Fst_tyms |
ok, so I went to the dealer this AM and had them reset my TPs and AFV. The tech that worked on it said I needed it and that we did the right thing. It then ran great! THEN, Buell warrenty gets involved and they now say, after I talked to Buell Cs yesterday on the phone, that they won't cover a TPS reset and that it wasn't even needed. I told the guy he was smokin crack and that it was in fact needed. After about an hour of conference call time with the service writer, the 2 Buell techs and me, they FINALLY decided to cover it, though he said that they shouldn't. Said that if it went off in another few hundred miles, that the throttle body/TPS itself might need changing. Also suggested that the ECM might be bad. But he said they would cover it, but normally, TPS adjustment ISN'T covered by warrenty! WTF?! They know this is a crappy system to begin with, they know it needs to be reset often., why are going to even question it? I am very upset with Buell / HD right now. I am really considering getting rid of my bike and getting a jap bike! GOD I feel ashamed saying that, but I bet they would NEVER have that problem, and if they did, there would be no question fixing it! | ||
| Bomber |
FST -- sorry for the troubles you've been havin the last part of your statement, however, is inaccurate. Japanese brands DO have similar problems, and their owners DO have trouble getting redress just data for ya | ||
| Yeahcmon |
Bigbird, you tell me what voltage the tps sensor is puting out at 5.2 and 5.6 degrees and I'll reset that TPS sensor with a voltmeter or I'll eat my boxers. Use some imagination, what do you think the DT is doing with the tps sensor- it's converting a voltage signal into degrees of opening. After I have mine reset I'll measure the volts with a wire clip and come up with a plan of action. I don't work on bikes and this can't be that hard. | ||
| M1combat |
I don't think it's as easy as that Samuel. I think the DT will ask the ECM to enter a TPS mode where it will start reporting things pertaining to the TPS. After that, it will then send a signal the the ECM to tell it that the voltage it is receiving NOW is "zero". I don't think a simple jumper would have any effect (well, maybe it would have SOME effect ). | ||
| M1combat |
"They know this is a crappy system to begin with" FST - That is a very inaccurate statement. The EFI on the Buell is one of the VERY best. "GOD I feel ashamed saying that, but I bet they would NEVER have that problem, and if they did, there would be no question fixing it! " Don't bet on it. Have you ever tried to synchronize a quad carb setup? Also, on a quad EFI setup you have nearly four times as many parts that can break. | ||
| Darthane |
FST - we all feel for you, but you're overreacting. Calm down, take a step back. No, a TPS reset shouldn't be covered under warranty unless there is a problem with the sensor itself. It's a maintenance labor procedure, not a 'part'. If you continue to have such problems, then possibly it IS a bad ECM and/or TPS sensor/throttle body. I would think that that indeed would be covered under warranty. But if you truly can't handle this, then go buy your R1 or whatever - just don't expect anyone to have any sympathy when you come up against a similar problem with it, and I guarantee at some point you will. As several people have noted, this is a pervasive issue for all vehicles, not just Buells, and quite frankly you should be happy that this is the one and ONLY one instance of you absolutely needing to rely on a dealer for some type of service. FWIW - I'm inclined to believe that there is indeed an underlying problem in your instance. My TPS was reset when I got the Race ECM for my XB9R, and hasn't caused any problems since in over 12,000 miles. | ||
| Glitch |
I must agree, if it needs more attention than regular maintenance than something is wrong. And as noted by Bigbird they have a record of more than enough resets to get it right, so they should have asked you if they could look into it further. Don't feel ashamed for being frustrated, we all get that way. I hope this is all you needed to get your bike right. On another note Bigbird said we should keep the throttle body clean. Is there a procedure for this? | ||
| Bigbird |
Wow, so many comments to address... Bomber-Oxford is probably about a hundred miles from me. But if you are ever in the area just drop by and introduce yourself! MikeJ-the one thing I can say about BMW is their electronics are pretty darn good for the most part. Not really very failure-prone at all. As for the brake bleeding issue, notice that in my last post I said the Moditech was necessary to PROPERLY bleed the brakes, as in according to manufacturers recommendations. However, those same crafty BMW riders I was talking about before have come up with a way to bleed the brakes without the Moditech. It still involves purchasing a part from a BMW dealer and then fabricating it into a special kind of funnel. I have purchased the part and will do my first brake bleed next month so as of yet I can't tell you how good it works. Don't get down on BMW-like Buell they make a unique and well-built motorcycle, even if service procedures aren't always ideal. I'm glad I have both brands in my garage Glitch - you aren't pissing me off at all  Fst_tyms-sounds to me like you have other issues going on. The TPS should not need to be reset very often at all. I just finished the 10,000 mile service on my XB-9 this afternoon (at work), and when I reset the TPS I found that it was exactly on the mark. You need to get your dealer to investigate the problem further, or find another dealer who is willing to help. Yeahcmon-I'm not sure you fully understand how a TPS reset/adjustment is done, but you're gonna eat your boxers. The TPS doesn't ever get touched, physically speaking. When the throttle plate is completely closed the DT sends a COMMAND to the bike's ECU, telling it to reset it's internal TPS value to zero. How are you going to send a command to your bike's ECU with a volt meter? | ||
| Bomber |
bird -- wilco . . . .what dealer you with? (Map quest shows no hide away hills in ohio) | ||
| Glitch |
Cool, if yer ever in the Atlanta are I'll buy you a beer. Or if ya make it to the RtR. I'll be glad t' meet cha. | ||
| Henrik |
It's interesting to see the warranty reaction to the TPS reset - exactly the "knee jerk" reaction that owners are unhappy with. Instead of denying coverage for the reset, someone at some point should have said exactly what Gregg said: "if you keep needing TPS reset, there is likely something else going on - let's look into it." This "something else" *would likely* be covered under warranty, which is something dealer or Customer Service should have come up with. That scenario would have made CS and dealer look like heroes. Instead we have an unhappy customer. Like Daves said; why is that so difficult to understand...?? Henrik | ||
| Fst_tyms |
ok ok ok. You guys are RIGHT. I love my Buell! I just went on a ride. 140 miles through the canyons and oopps. Needed a new tire. So I had to go do that too. The TPS thig, is really not that bad. Just a hastle really. And oh yeah I know. ALL BIKES HAVE PROBLEMS. I am soory. Didn't want to offend, I was mostly venting. As for it being covered under warrenty...? I think it should be covered. FOR LIFE! The damn thing needs resetting every 10,000 miles at least. Mine seems to need it more like every 7500. The tech @ Buell said something interesting. It might be from altitude changes, that causes it to get stupid. Said to give it a couple days and it might correct itself. Well I had given it a couple days and it didn't. But I did start to notice the problem when I was on a rie taking me toward higher altitudes, but it stayed that way too long. Would disconnecting the battery reset the computer, like on a car? That might solve the problem. I think, personally, that my bike needed to be put in learn mode manually. Henrik - the tech @ Buell did say, if it goes out of whack again, go deeper. He said he was personally interested. To make sure to let the dealer know when and if it got stupid again. AS for the tech @ the dealer, he said he has seem it many times and just a simple reset will make it happy again, and guess what.•••••••• did. Bike is back to normal. I am happy, and I didn't get charged for it either. Unluckily, my warranty is up real soon and if it don't go soon, I will have to pay for it myself. I am not REALLY an unhappy customer, just frustrated. There IS a difference. I love my bike. Would rather be riding IT than a jap bike. But with the belts and the TPS and trying to keep tires on that damn thing. It makes it difficult, untill you go on a 140 mile day through the canyons of course | ||
| Darthane |
I'll say this again. A TPS reset is MAINTENANCE LABOR. It uses no parts. I challenge you to find a vehicle company that applies a warranty to routine maintenance labor costs. If yours needs resetting every 7500 miles (and there is no contributing factor other than normal wear and tear), well, sorry, your bike is a fluke. If your TPS sensor or throttle body or ECM have a problem, by all means get it in there before the warranty runs out and fight hard if they try to tell you that replacing it is not a warranty claim. But trying to get them to warranty labor on a maintenance item is a losing battle, no matter how hard you try. What you really want is for the TPS reset to be part of a service contract or incentive, similar to the gas for a year thing they've got going on now, NOT a warranty. However, even that doesn't address the fact that we want to be able to do this in our garage along with all our other maintenance. That PDA thing mentioned above, should it come to fruition (I received an e-mail telling me that they are indeed working on the Buell version, but with no release date), then you get your wish. You can reset your TPS and AFV every 500 miles if you want. | ||
| Thepup |
my XB has had the TPS reset 3 or 4 times now and it only has 9300 miles on it.According to owners manual TPS should have been reset at the 1k and then the 10k mark,so do you think it should be covered under warranty?,I do. | ||
| Thepup |
also it is acting like it is due for a reset again,do you really think that this is normal?,I don't. | ||
| Bigbird |
On another note Bigbird said we should keep the throttle body clean. Is there a procedure for this? Not a specific procedure that I am aware of, but remember I am a Service Manager, not a HD/Buell Tech. I simply used the same method I used when I was a tech in the car biz: 1)Wrap a shop towel around a long phillips screwdriver and soak the towel with carb cleaner. 2)GENTLY swab out the throttle body while holding the throttle wide open. If you had any appreciable build-up in the throttle plate area your idle may be higher than it was before. Adjust the idle adjuster accordingly. That's all there is to it. bird -- wilco . . . .what dealer you with? (Map quest shows no hide away hills in ohio) Centennial Park Harley-Davidson/Buell, Pataskala Ohio. Hide Away Hills is a small community about 10 miles ESE of Lancaster. Cool, if yer ever in the Atlanta are I'll buy you a beer. Or if ya make it to the RtR. I'll be glad t' meet cha. I used to live there in the late '80's. I worked for Brumos Porsche Audi in Smyrna. I lived in Smyrna for 10 months, then moved to Woodstock for a couple of years. Finally moved to Canton before moving back up north. I have great memories of it all. Is the 3 dollar cafe in Roswell still around? If so maybe I'll meet ya for beer & wings one weekend. I used to love that place! As for it being covered under warrenty...? I think it should be covered. FOR LIFE! The damn thing needs resetting every 10,000 miles at least. I certainly hope you are kidding. This is the kind of attitude I find so disturbing. I'm not saying the following story applies to you, but I see it all too often. It goes kind of like this: Customer reads about Buell. Customer decides to go look at Buells. Customer demo's a Buell. Customer decides to purchase a Buell. Customer refuses to pay retail for a Buell (most of them, anyway) and hammers dealer to death on price. Dealer is paying floor plan on said Buell and comes to the realization that (hopefully) making a lousy couple hundred dollars and moving the Buell out the door is better than sitting on it, paying additional floor plan while hoping the next guy would let dealer make an additional hundred or so dollars. Right now the meager profit in the sale would at least pay the floor plan for the 3 months it's already been sitting on the floor, and if it sits another 3 months there's almost no way dealer would even be able to break even on the bike. So dealer sells the bike to customer and figures that perhaps he will sell some accessories and/or service in the future as a result of putting another bike on the road, and dealer hopes to turn a little bit of profit at that time. Customer, on the other hand, now feels that the dealer owes him the world because he purchased a bike from him. Service should be free, or at the very least substantially discounted. That Buell tank bag that Mr. Customer wants should be discounted 20% at least. Nevermind the fact that after discounting it 20%, paying for shipping, and paying employees to handle it, merchandise it, etc., he's now losing money on that item too. Then Customer is unhappy because the tires wear out too quick, the TPS needs reset, the oil needs to be changed, and services need to be done. THIS BIKE IS DEFECTIVE!!! I WANT IT REPLACED!!! Shortly thereafter dealer gets a call from HD customer service. It seems customer is unhappy with the treatment he's received, and now dealer has to spend at least an hour with customer service and customer trying to defend himself and attempt to make customer happy. When dealer gets home that night and logs onto his favorite DB he finds he's been lambasted by customer on a public forum for selling a "defective" motorcycle, and he's already been tried and convicted without getting to say a word. He sustains damage to his reputation as well as an onslaught of insults and attacks, all because he tried to sell and service motorcycles for a living. Ok, so I exaggerated the story for humor's sake. But sometimes it really isn't too far from the truth. I am well aware that there is a public misconception about massive profits in the motorcycle biz. You don't have to believe me if you don't want to, but I can tell you the streets here are NOT paved with gold. The people I work with work extremely hard for the money they make, and they have put up a huge investment for a comparably meager return. Historically the market has yielded a much better return on investment than a typical motorcycle dealership. And now we should reset TPS's for LIFE? What's next? Pay for your gas too? Oops, I forgot, Buell is already doing that  Look folks, I love what I do for a living. The people I work with are in the business to make a living and a business profit, but they are also there because working with motorcycles is much more fun than simply putting money in the market and watching it grow (or shrink as the case may be). A decent dealer will go to great extremes to make sure you are happy, provided you are being reasonable in your requests. TPS resets for life? Reasonable? I think not... | ||
| Koz5150 |
You know if you take your car to a dealership they charge you $75 just to hook it up to the scanner do-hickey to see whats wrong. Autozone will do it for free. So when do we get an Autozone bike shop??? Wouldn't that be nice??? | ||
| Opto |
I think what Yeahcmon has in mind is something like this: You get your tps reset at the dealer. Bring bike home, measure the tps voltage with trusty DMM with the idle speed screw wound out and throttle plate fully closed (say 0.921V). Write this voltage down on a piece of paper as this value is what the ecm will have had downloaded to it at the dealer to represent "zero" throttle opening. Now when there is a suspected tps problem one can pull out the DMM and check the voltage (with throttle plate closed and idle speed screwed out) and see if it's still the same. If it isn't, Yeahcmon might come up with a way to physically move the tps pot (or something) to restore the original recorded voltage. Then he won't have to eat his boxer pants and if I'm lucky he'll tell me how he did it! | ||
| Henrik |
Henrik - the tech @ Buell did say, if it goes out of whack again, go deeper. OK, so there *was* discussion of that possibility, and an offer made to help you if that was the case? That paints a rosier picture than your initial description. Henrik (for life - No Way!) | ||
| Bomber |
I don't know about anyone else, but I wouldn't let any Autozone employee I've ever seen TOUCH my bike (or my car, for that matter) btw, just for the record, Capitalism Rocks! Keep on keepin on, bird . . . .. . let's hope the example your employer and you are setting (along with Daves and others) is catching! | ||
| Davefl |
I purchased both of my Buells used so the dealer did not make money off of me in that sale. The dealer does not make much money from service work from me because I do most all of it myself. I do however spend at least $100 every couple of months on parts so the dealer is not losing out. The dealer I deal with seems happy to have me even though I did not buy the bike from them. If they had a basic ECU maintance tool that I could purchase from them at their profit then I would. It seems to me from this thread that the people that want to be able to reset the TPS themselves work on their own bikes and the people that say we should not be able to work at Harley dealerships. | ||
| Koz5150 |
Just to clarify, I let Autozone find out what the errorcode is for free. then I will buy and install the fix myself. It's just nice that I don't have to go to a dealer to findout the car runs like crap due to a faulty injector that would have taken me hours to find. | ||
| Bigbird |
It seems to me from this thread that the people that want to be able to reset the TPS themselves work on their own bikes and the people that say we should not be able to work at Harley dealerships. This is simply not true. I'm not saying you shouldn't be able to reset your own TPS. I'm saying you can't reset your own TPS because the tool is not currently available to you. Furthermore, I'm saying that as a dealer we can't do it for you for free, and we are not allowed to loan, rent, or sell you the equipment. If an aftermarket company makes the equipment to perform TPS resets available to the public, go ahead and buy it and do your own TPS resets! It really doesn't matter to me. Harley has not made this equipment available to the public for reasons that have not been explained to me. I suspect THEY might not want you performing your own TPS resets, but on a dealership level believe me we are not getting rich performing 30 dollar TPS/AFV resets. ...Yeahcmon might come up with a way to physically move the tps pot (or something) to restore the original recorded voltage. That's what it would take, assuming the ECU never gets significantly scrambled and assuming there is enough throw (travel) in the TPS pot to accomodate moving it from it's original intended position. If moving the TPS causes the wiper arm inside to extend past it's intended stop at either end of the throw the TPS will be junk. However, after devising a way to physically move the TPS and performing the calibration in that manner, what happens if the ECU gets replaced or for some reason the dealer works on the bike and resets the TPS in the traditional fashion. Now you've lost the actual base calibration point for good. He could possibly do it that way if he wanted to, but I wouldn't do it on my bike. If I were him I'd hang out a while and see what develops in the aftermarket world. |
