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Spyder12s
| | Posted on Friday, April 09, 2004 - 04:58 pm: | 
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that is the biggest problem there are none... |
M1combat
| | Posted on Friday, April 09, 2004 - 05:28 pm: |
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Is the coil delivering spark to both plugs when cold? |
Spyder12s
| | Posted on Friday, April 09, 2004 - 05:37 pm: |
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it runs fine cold...sorry for the confusion |
M1combat
| | Posted on Friday, April 09, 2004 - 05:41 pm: |
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Is the coil delivering spark to both plugs when warm? (the more likely coil failure mode anyway  ) |
Opto
| | Posted on Friday, April 09, 2004 - 05:49 pm: |
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Downunderbueller had a bad cyl head temp sensor that wouldn't throw a fault code, but would occasionally make the ecm think the bike was cold when it was hot, ran real bad when that happened. Took the dealer a few goes to find the prob. I presume your dealer checked also for air intake leaks when hot?
Fullpower, maybe Spyd meant to say "0.5V" not 5V. Have you fitted your race ecm yet? I can't wait... |
Spyder12s
| | Posted on Friday, April 09, 2004 - 05:56 pm: |
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yeah the race ecm is in it. the thing ripps!! I mean ripps, the tech that is workin on it did all the same mods to another 12s and he even said mine seems nastier than that one. but does not like to idle. |
Blake
| | Posted on Saturday, April 10, 2004 - 12:15 am: |
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Spyder,
Sorry, I forgot what I was planning to say. |
Spyder12s
| | Posted on Saturday, April 10, 2004 - 12:41 am: |
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thanks man I feel the love ...really I do  |
Spike
| | Posted on Saturday, April 10, 2004 - 10:31 am: |
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I definitely have some stumbling issues with my XB12 race ecm as well. It's new trick is not idling until the engine is warmed up. Even when it's 60 or 70 degrees out the bike has to be started multiple times before it will idle. The bike will actually start up easily and sound like it's running fine but then it will stumble and stall. Also, mine will stumble for the first few miles until the bike is completely warmed up. It feels like an intake leak. I would love for it to be something as simple as a TPS issue, but I've had the TPS reset multiple times on the digital tech following the latest service bulletin from HDnet.com. Also, the bike ran fine with the stock ECM after being reset in the same manner.
The good news is that one of our techs at Ray Price just got back from the XB school and seems confident that he can now dial in an XB perfectly. I was only able to talk to him about it for a few minutes, but he certainly has learned a few new tricks.
Mike L.
'04 XB12R |
Spyder12s
| | Posted on Saturday, April 10, 2004 - 11:41 am: |
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as far as the new tricks they learned at school ...My tech wsa there too an they did learn alot from what I understand, but its not helping so far ... |
Spike
| | Posted on Saturday, April 10, 2004 - 08:47 pm: |
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I'm certainly hoping we can get mine tuned right with the stuff our tech learned. Otherwise I'm going back to the stock ECM and the stock air cleaner.
Mike L.
'04 XB12R |
Charlieboy6649
| | Posted on Saturday, April 10, 2004 - 08:51 pm: |
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Spike, did you check your idle speed. Mine was doing the same when idling at 850, upped it to 1050 and she's cured! |
Spike
| | Posted on Saturday, April 10, 2004 - 11:54 pm: |
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Idle speed has been adjusted to no avail. I'm hoping the static timing is off just a bit. There isn't much left to adjust.
Hopefully we can tune this thing right. I'd hate to think that the entire race kit was a waste of money.
Mike L.
'04 XB12R |
Spyder12s
| | Posted on Sunday, April 11, 2004 - 01:41 am: |
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good luck, let me/us now how your tuning went ...
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Al_lighton
| | Posted on Sunday, April 11, 2004 - 06:28 pm: |
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One of our customers just put one on his and it is doing the exact same thing...runs great, but won't idle well until completely warmed up.
The shop XB9S has a race ecm and it runs great. Must be a 12 thing... maybe a bad batch of ECMs? Does anyone have a race ECM equipped 12 that is running great over all RPM ranges at warmup?
Al |
Spyder12s
| | Posted on Sunday, April 11, 2004 - 07:23 pm: |
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mine runs great !! better than it should except at Idle ... |
Bads1
| | Posted on Sunday, April 11, 2004 - 10:20 pm: |
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Mine seems to stumble just alittle when its cold,but will idle.After it warms up its fine. |
Opto
| | Posted on Monday, April 12, 2004 - 01:49 am: |
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I can't help but say something here - with XB12, Drummer, K&N and race ecm I had no joy at all after 2 tps resets. Bike would start and idle and then stall, I had to keep my hand near the throttle for about a minute. Bike ran great from 3/4 to full throttle, but had flat spots and definite hesitation around 3000 - 4000rpm. I refitted the stock ecm and haven't looked back.
All this was about 2 months ago, but since few people were running Drummers on 12's mostly because of snow, I have been patiently sitting back waiting to see what will come out in the wash. I've had the AFV checked twice since refitting the stock ecm, once without the K&N and once with the K&N, both times 100% was told to me by the service manager (using Digital Technician).
I had no problems with idle when warm with the race ecm, the main problem was that it was running too rich and could not lean out enough, which is a different problem to some of the ones posted above.
Maybe I have a bad race ecm, but to test it it must be fitted to another bike which requires another tps reset just to fit it to the donor test bike.
I am looking forward to some answers on this XB12 race ecm issue.
It would be interesting if any brave souls with XB12's would experiment with refitting their stock ecm (no tps reset required) so we could get some more info. At this stage I only know of myself and fullpower to be running stock ecm's with a Drummer on a 12, and neither of us have any problems with this set-up (fullpower is doing it involuntarily waiting for snow to melt so he can get to a dealer for the race ecm tps reset). |
Opto
| | Posted on Monday, April 12, 2004 - 01:59 am: |
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Umm...just 2 more things, 1st, the service manager told me that the race ecm's on 12's will not hold a cold idle like a stock ecm and 2nd, my ignition timing was way advanced from the factory and was rectified by the dealer on my request after some pinging issues. |
Spike
| | Posted on Monday, April 12, 2004 - 10:26 am: |
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Wow, it really sounds like there's a bad batch of XB12 race ECMs floating around.
My stock ECM is sitting right in front of me on my desk, and I'm seriously considering putting it back on the bike. My only concern would be the air/fuel ratio of running the stock ECM along with the "race" air cleaner and the Drummer pipe.
. . . on the other hand, I have been told there are ways to manually adjust and set the adaptive fuel value on the stock ECM when using the digital tech. 
Mike L.
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Fullpower
| | Posted on Monday, April 12, 2004 - 02:22 pm: |
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opto:update on XB12, DRUMMER, stock ECM. warmed up into the 30's last week, got 400 miles over the weekend. still running great, no problems. i have clear roads to the harley shop, but weather was so good saturday i wanted to keep riding, so did not have race ecm reset. it will be real nice to have it set, and have the stock one ready for back up. so far i have 1000 miles on the drummer, running good, AND IT SOUNDS GREAT. |
Opto
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 13, 2004 - 05:03 am: |
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Excellent news Dean, and the actuator simulator is working no probs.
Spike, no-ones saying there's a bad batch of XB12 race ecm's out there, just a few are having issues and nothing is tested and proven yet. Just have to wait and see what happens.
My only concern would be the air/fuel ratio of running the stock ECM along with the "race" air cleaner and the Drummer pipe.
Umm, fullpower and I am doing that already, read my post...I was worried too, and so was the service manager, so I took it in for AFV readings. |
Blake
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 13, 2004 - 06:53 am: |
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Resetting the AFV (Adaptive Fuel Value) to a lower level might work for a while, but the ECM self adjusts the AFV based upon 02 sensor output. |
Spike
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 13, 2004 - 05:13 pm: |
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Opto,
What was your air/fuel ratio with the stock ECM, race intake, and drummer? I'm sure the bike would run fine with that setup, but it has to be on the lean side. When my XB12R was stock the air/fuel ratio tapered from ~14:1 on the low end to ~13:1 up top. I dynoed the bike again with the stock ECM and the race air cleaner and the air/fuel ratio had leaned out to ~15:1 on the low end and tapering to ~14:1 on the top end. Assuming the Drummer moves more air than the stock pipe, the bike will only get leaner by adding the Drummer. The bike may run fine with that setup, but it certainly won't be making the power it should be making.
Also, this may not be a batch of bad ECMs, but what we do know is that the race ECM causes the 12s to run poorly and so far no one has been able to fix them yet.
Mike L.
'04 XB12R |
M1combat
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 13, 2004 - 06:17 pm: |
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Well, the ECM should be able to adjust the AFV so as to be able to keep the same mix after the addition of the filter and drummer. Unless I mis-understand the entire point of the AFV, or the stock ECM is not capable of adding enough fuel to the mix to keep it there (basically "pegging" the AFV at one end). |
Bigbird
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 13, 2004 - 07:31 pm: |
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} Well, the ECM should be able to adjust the AFV so as to be able to keep the same mix after the addition of the filter and drummer. Unless I mis-understand the entire point of the AFV, or the stock ECM is not capable of adding enough fuel to the mix to keep it there (basically "pegging" the AFV at one end).
Using the data provided by the O2 sensor the ECM will properly compensate and keep mixture in line, BUT ONLY IN CLOSED LOOP! It is important to understand that. In almost every closed loop fuel injection system I've ever seen (20 years as an Auto Tech prior to becoming Service Manager of a Harley/Buell dealer) the fuel injection system goes into open loop if you are past 1/2 throttle, and in many systems it goes into open loop even earlier than that. When a fuel injection system is in open loop typically it is using the mapping data that was pre-programmed into the ECM, and it is largely discarding O2 sensor data. What this means is your engine has the potential to run lean in open loop if you have done mods that increase airflow through the engine. Even though the system is capable of adapting to that increased airflow in closed loop it may not be capable of adapting in open loop. I haven't done enough experimentation with DDFI to see if it takes the adaptive fuel value into it's open loop equations or not, but perhaps someone else can shed some light on the subject?
BTW the quickest way to richen open loop mixture is to trick the ECM into thinking the engine is colder than it really is. A resistor in the ET circuit would do the trick, but I'm sure it would take some experimentation to get it right. |
M1combat
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 13, 2004 - 08:01 pm: |
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"Even though the system is capable of adapting to that increased airflow in closed loop it may not be capable of adapting in open loop."
I'm pretty sure that the Adaptive Fuel Value is indeed applied to the fuel map in the open loop mode. I think it DOES discard the O2 data, but the O2 data was used to set the AFV while in closed loop. Maybe if you took a run up a mountain at full throttle you would lean out as you go higher as the engine wouldn't have a chance to enter the closed loop mode and relearn the barometric conditions. I think that's the entire point of the adaptive fuel value.
YMMV - I'm not a Buell tech. I did sleep at a Holiday Inn last night though... J/K. |
M1combat
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 13, 2004 - 09:58 pm: |
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The AFV correction is only applied to the fuel mixture during OPEN loop operation. During closed loop operation the O2 sensor signal is the primary compensation method.
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Bigbird
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 13, 2004 - 10:17 pm: |
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The AFV correction is only applied to the fuel mixture during OPEN loop operation. During closed loop operation the O2 sensor signal is the primary compensation method.
Logically speaking it would seem that is the way it should work, but does anyone know for sure? If so, what other data is the ECM relying on in open loop operation, and what data besides the O2 sensor data is discarded? I suppose I could call Tech Services and find out, but depending on who I get on the other end of the phone it can be more fun to communicate with you folks 
I guess the good news is I don't NEED the answer because I am not a wrench, nor do I plan on making any mods that would require the answer. But inquiring minds need to know... |
Opto
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 14, 2004 - 07:02 am: |
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M1 where do you get your data from?
Spike, good point about the leaning out. All I can say is the bike runs great, I'd need to put it on a dyno with sniffer to get air/fuel ratios. The dealer (and I) was concerned about the bike running lean with the stock ecm and the Drummer, and the K&N, after I took it in and they checked the AFV they were happy with the setup. Did you let the ecm "learn" after fitting the race filter, or did you fit it with the bike still on the dyno? Just wondering. The leaning out with the race filter would be expected if you fitted it with the bike still on the dyno. Hope you and Spyd's bikes get sorted soon, I'm putting my energy into another FI system, and waiting for more info from Buellers, and still actively searching for answers.
Bigbird you just opened another can of worms! the really interesting question is does the DDFI apply the AFV to open loop. I am really hoping that that would be the case, but read in your post that it is not likely.
Next project is fitting a LED bargraph to monitor the O2 sensor voltage, hopefully I can learn where the transition point/s is/are between open and closed loop operation, and the relative difference between the air/fuel ratios in open and closed loops, and try to work out if the AFV affects open loop air/fuel ratios.
One little bit at a time...
edited by opto on April 14, 2004 |
Spike
| | Posted on Saturday, April 24, 2004 - 07:11 pm: |
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The GOOD news: I still love my XB12R!
The BAD news: The XB12 race ECM still sucks . . . bad.
As many of you know, I've been having trouble with the race ECM on my XB12. I got our Buell tech here at Ray Price to go over my bike last week. He found the static timing to be off by quite a noticable amount. He set the static timing, reset the TPS, and reset the AFV (100%). Initially the bike ran perfect- started easily, idled smooth, and felt nice and strong. 300 miles later the bike is back to running like poop. It takes a few turns to start, refuses to idle until it's warmed up, and spits and sputters at part throttle settings. Also, it's developed a nice popping through the exhaust on decelleration.
The first few days after the TPS reset and AFV reset the bike was running great, so I don't think it's outside the race ECM's potential to actually make the bike run good. For whatever reason the race ECM seems to "de-tune" itself over time. I had previously hoped this was a timing related issue, but it doesn't seem to be. The bottom line is that the race ECM causes the bike to run poorly and I'm sick of dealing with it. A TPS/AFV reset every ~250 miles isn't practical. We've been complaining about this for a while now and not even the Anonymous' have anything to say about it. I'll be putting the stock ECM back on until something better comes along.
I'm quite frustrated about this. I spent ~$500 on a factory race kit only to lose power and driveability. As far as I'm concerned, the K&N filter was the only functional piece in the whole kit.
Mike Luddy, Jr.
'04 XB12R |
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