| Author | Message | ||
     Rokoneer |
Finally had a chance to get the 9R to the "local" (1 1/2 hours away) dealer to do a TPS reset after installing the race ECM, XB12 airbox lid and a DRUMMER. I wasn't able to take it myself so I had my Father trailer it down and explained to him it was a real quick deal to do and that they'd probably charge me 1/2 hour labor ($30) to do it. When I got home I checked and my Dad had dropped the bike off with the bill sitting on the tank. The bill came to $70 and was broken down into 1 hour labor ($60), $2 for parts, and $1.20 for shop supplies, plus tax. I called up my Dad to see what the deal was and he said the TPS reset was done in 15 minutes tops but the rest of the labor, and parts, were from when they checked the timing, which they told him they have to do any time they reset a TPS. The $2 for parts were for the 2 rivets they had to replace from pulling off the timing cover. He didn't know what the billed for shop supplies were and they weren't itemized on the bill. I know this is pretty small beans in the scheme of Buelldom, but I think I'm as well versed in TPS reset procedure as this board allows me to be and I don't recall ever seeing anywhere that the friggin' timing had to be checked after a TPS reset. I called the service manager the next day and she assured me that it is "definitely" Buell procedure to check the timing after doing a reset. She was also nice enough to tell me that the timing on my bike was "perfect" and "couldn't have been any better" when they checked it and didn't need to be adjusted. Gee thanks....need any more of my money? | ||
| Kds1 |
Roko, At least now when you are burning the tire off you won't have to worry about detonation!!!KEVIN | ||
| Chainsaw |
print this for the service manager, verbatim from the manual. Doesn't mention anything about checking the timing: Throttle Position Sensor (TPS) Inspection: 1. Connect vehicle to Digital Technician 2. Select data monitor screen. 3. Select TP degrees on screen. 4. Ignition and run switch should be in the on position with the engine off and throttle in closed position. 5. If closed throttle TP degree reading is not between 5.2 - 5.6 degrees, TPS should be recalibrated. See adjustment below. Adjustment: 1. Connect vehicle to Data Technician. 2. Select data monitor screen. 3. Select TP degrees screen. 4. See figure 1-60 (shows the idle adjustment screw, position is also shown in the owners manual). Back off the idle adjustment until TPS is at 0 degrees and then continue to back out one to two additional turns. 5. Open and SNAP SHUT throttle control grip 2-3 times. Note: This is to ensure that the throttle plate is completely closed before beginning recalibration. 6. Select calibrations screen. 7. Select Buell calibrations tab. 8. Select the Zero TPS function. Note: When calibration is complete, dialog box will appear on Digital Tech screen with message to display "Command Sent Successfully" Select OK to continue. 9. Select data monitor screen. 10. Select TP degrees on screen. 11. Turn idle speed screw in until the TPS degree reading is between 5.2 -5.6 degrees. 12. Select RPM/Speed and Temperature on screen and start vehicle. 13. Run vehicle until engine temperature is 270 degrees F. 14. Set idle to 1050 - 1100 RPM 15. Adjustment is complete. | ||
| Chainsaw |
In addition, the SM, section 1-44 says Check Ignition Timing • At every 10,000 mile service • After each removal of the cam position sensor it also says • Do not remove the timing inspection cover to check static the timing. If the timing must be corrected, the inspection cover plate will them be removed A plug above the cover is actually used to inspect the timing. | ||
| Opto |
yeh why pull the timing cover if the timing's "perfect"? They owe you 2 rivets and half an hour the descriptives thieving dogs and friggin idiots come to mind. Sorry had to say that. So how does the bike go now?  | ||
| Fbolt |
The two local dealers told me to drop it off and they'll get to it in a couple of days!!!  | ||
| 420at145mph |
WAAA least u guys GOT a local dealer my local harley shop wont touch my bike they said they had a buell in there once n it took em 2 days to get the tire off i have to ride 300 miles ONE WAY to my dealer that charged me 260$ for the 1000 mile service that took no more than 25 minutes | ||
| Mikej |
If it takes them two days to take a tire off then they probably can't scratch their own ass without giving themselves a blackeye. | ||
| 420at145mph |
either way 260$!!! for basicly an oil change cant imagine what they gonna say / charge when i bring it in with the d&d pipe and k&n filter and need the ecm put in and tps reset | ||
| Misato |
they charged me 1hr labor, I called back and told the service manager I would not be returning, he asked why and I told him. He said it should have only been 1/2hr for a tps reset and gave me a credit. | ||
| Curtyd |
So you're complaining that they rechecked your timing after all these MODS and a reset of your throttle. Sounds kind of responsible to me! I think I wouldn't object to having the timing rechecked. Maybe I don't know nuthin...You'd sure be bitching if they didn't and it came out running like crap, don't you think? | ||
| Wyckedflesh |
Curtyd, if you read above you will notice that checking the timing wasn't neccessary at all. And the fact they took the timing cover off is listed in the SERVICE MANUAL as a no no unless you actually have to adjust the timing. You only need to adjust the timing if you change the cam position sensor, which was not a mod that Roconeer did. It was a waste of time to do. | ||
| Curtyd |
Checking the timing is just a pretty minor basic maintenance item. Yes they have to take off the plate to change it and they probably decided just to do that to make it easier to adjust if they had to. I guess I am of the old school where we were always adjusting timing, points and all that, you know. I actually think they were being good mechanics and 1/2 hour labor doesn't count as a rip-off, but heck, the tech will now, for sure, make it back on him the next time, TRUST ME. | ||
| Wyckedflesh |
If I can't trust a mechanic to do a basic service that I ask specifically for, then how do I know when it comes down to a major service down the road I am not having extra unnecessary services being done? Half hour right now as you say is no big deal, but what about 2 hours of extra work that was unnecessary cause they wanted to pad the bill down the road? | ||
| Captainplanet |
And a half hour is a big deal to a shop owner when they overcharge lots of people for work that was not necessary. Lots of extra income for them, at our cost. | ||
| Chainsaw |
Checking the timing is just a pretty minor basic maintenance item Yes it is very basic. It's checked by removing the plug above the inspection plate. Removing the inspection plate requires getting a drill, appropriately sized bit, extension cord, and drilling out two rivets. Why would you do this if you didn't have to? I'm with the Captain and Wyked on this one. If they steal $35 from you now, I sure wouldn't trust them in the future. That said... I would give the tech the benefit of the doubt (betting on his inexperience with Buells), and I would give the Service Manager a chance to make it right. If the SM doesn't, don't go back. FWIW | ||
| Rokoneer |
I appreciate all the feedback from you guys. My mindset was the same as Wycked, Chainsaw, and Captain on this. I feel that they checked the timing to pad the bill with unnecessary labor charges. I have never used a dealer for any service on any of the motorcycles I have ever owned because I've never had to (I only have seven on hand now). I have been able to do any service, from minor to major, that any of them required. I am a life long pessimist and that attitude is applied to motorcycle dealers and service departments. With the Buell I had no choice (yet) but to go to a dealer for the TPS reset. Curtyd, I wasn't bitching about the whopping $35 it cost me, I was bitching about them doing something that I did not ask them to do and that is not required to be done with a TPS reset. I would have expected a call from them asking me if I wanted the timing checked before they went ahead and did it on my dime. It's not a money thing it's a principle thing..... I believe I will write them a letter and express my thoughts on this to them.......... | ||
| Leeaw |
I would hold off on the letter in case you need them for something. Express concern and appreciation for the refund, and keep open the channels. | ||
| Curtyd |
Removing the inspection plate requires getting a drill, appropriately sized bit, extension cord, and drilling out two rivets. Why would you do this if you didn't have to? I think for mechanics who do this every day, that qualifies as pretty basic. That's how Buell/HD designed it if you need to adjust it. It's real impt to personally make the deal with them before you sign on the line approving service. Any contract you can write in your terms and have both parties initial it. It is the only way you can control it before letting go of the bike or any other service you are contracting for. It looks like they did right by you when you talked to them, why wouldn't you trust them after that? Personally I like seeing the techs, dealers and everybody making their money as long as I get what I bargained for and find responsible people to deal with. Remember every business deal has the potential for a successful long term business relationship. In the long run when I treat them right like they treat me right I always get taken care of later if not sooner. That's why they gave you the credit. It can be a two-way street, it's Capitalism, ain't that GRAND?! | ||
| Rokoneer |
Just to clarify, I have not spoken to them since I got my bike back and thus I have neither requested a refund nor received one. There was no contract signed for the work performed. I made contact with them on the phone and told them I needed a TPS reset and that was it. As mentioned I was not able to take the bike to the dealer myself. If I had been there I would have interrupted the tech when I saw him start to drill the rivets out, asked what he was doing and dealt with it at that point. I can only take the blame in that respect for the work that done performed. It was the dealer who decided that a timing check was part of the TPS reset procedure, when according to Buell it is not. I'm not hating the dealer that did the work. I have not heard their side of the story and thus am giving them the benefit of the doubt. Once I see how they handle me, as a customer who has a concern about what I perceive as unnecessary work being performed, I will then be able to pass my own personal judgment about them. With all the negative posts about Buell dealers I went into this expecting the worst (pessimist, remember?) and while things could have been A LOT worse than something that costs $35 I still came away from the experience (at least so far) feeling disappointed. I'm not pissed off, I'm disappointed....... | ||
| Opto |
OK, so how does the bike go now? Are you happy with the mods? Did they do the tps reset properly? Does the Drummer sound good or what? How about a short report? Are you smiling more? | ||
| Reepicheep |
Just as a data point, from somebody who has some genuinely bad experiences with dealers (more often then not as a matter of fact)... If the same thing had happened to me, I would probably have mentioned it, but not complained. Dunno about the XB's, but with the tube framers, many of them have the timing off from the factory, you never know. So 7 out of 10 times, people drop $35 and get nothing, but 3 out of ten times people drop $35 and pick up 5 horses. All in all I think it is a net gain. Heck, I have been trying to find a dealer around here that will help me set it on my Cyclone. I would not complain about a dealer going above and beyond, even if it cost me a little extra (probably up to about $100). It shows they care about doing good work. But it was work that was not by the book, so I understand if others don't feel that way. I am just saying I would be happy the dealer was being very thorough. | ||
| Chainsaw |
I'm all for being thorough and professional, but from my perspective, they doubled the bill to perform unnecessary work contrary to specs in the service manual. | ||
| Yeahcmon |
Bottom line......Follow the Manual. They wouldn't print it if your not supposed to follow it. Do what it says and cover you ass, anything extra is a waste of time and money | ||
| Yeahcmon |
Oh yeah, thank them for the broken off rivet butts in you gearbox!!!!!! | ||
| Glitch |
I wouldn't have minded if they had checked my timing when I went for a reset. I just found out that you have to use the Digital Technician to just check the stinking timing... What ever happened to using a timing light? | ||
| Opto |
The timing is done statically, don't need any timing light, or digi tech either.. How about an LED wired across the hall effect sensor? (with suitable resistor) My XB12 was shipped and delivered with the timing out, advanced. edited by opto on April 24, 2004 | ||
| Reepicheep |
Better just using a DMM set to measure voltage Opto, less chance of cooking something. Is there both a static and dynamic timing setup procedure? Maybe it's an XB thing. Gotta go check my manual. I know there was some dynamic check on my cyclone... you have to put in a clear plastic plug to keep from spraying oil everywhere... | ||
| Glitch |
Opto, Reepicheep, The manual says to: 1. Raise rear wheel 2. Remove timing plug 3. 5th gear 4. Raise kickstand 5. Connect DigiTech 6. Select Static Timing screen 7. Turn on ingition 8. Turn tire to move flywheel TDC mark at very edge of inspection hole 9. If your on compression for front cylnider Digi will read LOW-0 volts with mark at left edge of window 10. Bump flywheel a little at a time 11. The static timing is right if when the mark is straight up and the Digi reads HIGH-5 volts 12. Turn wheel one revolution if on compression stroke LOW-0 volts This of course is abreviated... There is no mention of Dynamic Timing... I'm thankful for any help ya'll can give. | ||
| Glitch |
How about an LED wired across the hall effect sensor? Better just using a DMM set to measure voltage Opto, less chance of cooking something. How would I do this? Where is the Hall Effect sensor? I can't find it in the parts book or repair manual, is it called something else? Once I get this all figured out, I'll make a post in the Knowledge Vault (or should I do it now?). Thanks for ya'll's help. | ||
| Opto |
Glitch the hall effect sensor is the Cam Position Sensor. If we could work out a simple timing check setup then anyone could check their timing, I think we'd all be surprised at how many bikes are out. Reep the DMM sounds good, just got to be able to tap into the output wire. You really need 2 people, one to bump the rear wheel around and one to check the timing hole. I have read a description on the net that made sense to me of how to wire an LED across the hall effect sensor, I might have to look back into it, just thought an LED would make it easier for one person. | ||
| Glitch |
Opto, thanks, man, I feel like I'm getting somewhere now. Do you have the link to the LED you were talking about. I have some drawings of the wiring harness and the ignition system if they'll help you explain things to me. I can e-mail them to you if you'd like. Thanks again! I owe ya'll. | ||
| Opto |
Glitch I found the info re the LED doing a search for "hall effect sensor" I think on Google. I have the FM with wiring diagram, but need time, was riding today and will be riding tomorrow, then back to work, fix helicopters, come home, do the dishes, cooking washing ironing bla bla bla. Would rather nail this timing checking! Such is life... I like the new Bridgestone back tyre | ||
| Glitch |
Any idea where to hook up the DDM or LED?  | ||
| Opto |
Glitch, using a DDM put the red lead on the GN/W wire and the black lead to ground/earth/negative battery lead. You should get a readout of zero or approx 5 volts, depending on position of cam sensor. You need the ignition on to get the reading. There is a connector just behind the timing cover casting under the sprocket cover that has the three wires in it. Hopefully you can get the red DMM probe into the back of the GN/W wire there. Ping me offline if you have any probs or questions. | ||
| Glitch |
Thanks Opto!  Now if I could just sneak out of here... | ||
| Trenchtractor |
You guys might wanna be a little careful, make sure you use a DMM with 10 meg impedence... I know some cars spac out if you don't... Just a precaution... |
