| Author | Message | ||
     Justa4banger |
Maybe i did get a bogus flash.... I know this issue can be resolved easily, it just needs to be tuned. I'm hoping it is as simple as mix up in tunes to resolve this issue. but i highly doubt it. Court i never asked anyone to take anything i say as gospel, but 2 things are certain. other owners will now be more inclined to test their bikes and see if their bikes run the same or not. If other owners come to the same results i have, then this will make EBR adjust the tune to help the bike run better, not worse. As for overlaying runs 13-15 sorry i cannot. i do not have the winpep program needed to see the run files i have. Maybe blake will be able to helpout the masses he has the run files and i believe i read that he could open the run files. | ||
| Ron_luning |
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aI3kDXonB1g | ||
| Dannybuell |
J4B YOU DA MAN! You did exactly what you said you were going to do. J4B tortured his bike so that we might get a clue, some sort of direction and he is criticized? J4B asked for help, so what! J4B's efforts were to help us! to those that find comfort in casting aspersions and/or making misleading statements. It only makes you look small, very, very small. Starting rumors, all that stuff will backfire and F%^$ you every time.  dannybuell | ||
| Ottobotz |
-J4Banger Thanks for the dedication and results. The info. is still great. Sorry about the disappointment, but all is not lost, we all have learned something. -When something does not come out to everyones liking, then all the critics start showing up. -Hopefully EBR does respond, that way we all can learn more. -Some people just love DRAMA, like a soap oprah........AS THE BUELL TURNS!!!!!! | ||
| Justa4banger |
Hey Court.... Would you have asked me the same questions above if i had come back saying the ECM rocked and i made 150whp.........?????? | ||
| Blackflash |
I agree with dannybuell .j4b did exactly what he said. I noticed anything that is posted negative toward buell on this site in any way or form is quickly attacked by the clan of flaming believers.I get sick sometimes over it.Some spit coffee on their screens?I most of the time  at most comments.But here j4b has posted good info . True factual info.Why be a hater. | ||
| Court |
>>>>and he is criticized? I am DYING to know . . . . having read all the posts. . . .
Please . . . where are you reading this? I know exactly how all this works . . .trust me . . the last time someone took my statements about a Buell to task . . and you can call me kinda a "out up or shut up" kinda guy . . . I took my Buell, took the challenge and circled the entire damn country. I suspect J4B can do very well standing up for himself. So fare I have seen nothing to cast any doubt on what he has done. He is ONE data point of a couple hundred ECM's out there . . . being the ONLY ONE to have the results he has reported naturally creates some questions. Then . . . when i see all the cheerleaders rushing, quite unnecessarily to his defense, who registered on the Buell boards, last week, yesterday and with profiles like this )call me old fashioned but I've always used my real name) . . well . . . you can certainly see that there are a LOT (beyond the mere dyno runs) questions.  When I see THAT profile . . . and then note that nearly everyone citing "drama" or thinking that the poor guy is being taken to task . . well, it only creates more questions. >>>Would you have asked me the same questions above if i had come back saying the ECM rocked and i made 150whp.........?????? Probably not since other people have. It was the fact that you got results that are precisely in contrast with what others have gotten and then when I see an entire group of folks rushing to the thread who just registered and haven't participated in the thread . . . it just looks odd when the guy attesting to your qualifications is named "asjdfkladsklf". Well . . it just looks fishy as hell. Again . . I have never questioned your results. I will now leave you guys to work it out and see if you can figure it out. But . . . lets be quite clear that at no point have I questioned you or your results. It's the process that looks very questionable. Knock yourself out and have fun . . . | ||
| Mac_inger |
If all it shows is that one individual ECM can have a faulty flash (or whatever the problem might be), then its a valid test. It means that it is not as plug and play as we'd thought and you should definitely plan for the extra money for a Dyno run to check if your ECM is actually working properly. And that's assuming that J4B's ECM is that one in a hundred faulty one and the other 99 are fine. | ||
| Blackflash |
Information given on the web is like shooting yourself in the foot. hmm lets take a example here court. Mike hunt has put a race ecm and a exhaust on his bike followed by a k&n.He encounters some problems with his bike.So he then takes his bike to the dealer and they say you have been abusing it.In the meantime you say no I havent.They then google your name and check badweb .They then use the search function and look over your statements.Oh wait he runs the race ecm.WARRANTY VOIDED. I also believe theres snitches on here that aid this. Never post actual names. Is this good enough reason court???Leave hellgate out of it.lol | ||
| Spyder12s |
J4B sent ya a PM you might be interested in | ||
| Dannybuell |
Court Posted on Thursday, February 11, 2010 - 09:20 pm: "What are your qualifications? (Again, I simply don't know and you are asking 15,000 folks to take what you say as gospel) . . this is kinda important and you may, from time to time, when someone asks about my impression of a motorcycle, see me quote that I've been riding Buells for about 23 years and have ridden in 44 states on Buells. It just gives them a sense that I'm not 3 months into this and trying to make a comparison I'm ill equipped to make. " Aspersions plain and simple. A&& time means nothing. The cred issue belongs to the dyno operator, thats who rules the roost in this situation. "Did you pay for the parts? (I always ask this because when I was testing professionally I either bought the parts myself or, when the test was complete, returned them) Tests with free parts are not tests, they are advertisements. " Aspersions. No he conned EBR and the muffler guys into giving them away so he could slam them into the dirt. No conflict of interest there! How many times have you offered your bike as a dyno mule? "How would you respond if 15 other folks all had very similar finding that were just the opposite of yours? Again . . . . the above are just my thoughts. No intention whatsoever to call you or your work into question. I am aware of a number (it's about 15) of folks who have used the same combination you have and have reported different results. " Aspersions and doubt. Don't mean to get academic but, cite your sources all fifteen, fourteen, or thirteen. Court Posted on Thursday, February 11, 2010 - 10:57 pm: "When I see THAT profile . . . and then note that nearly everyone citing "drama" or thinking that the poor guy is being taken to task . . well, it only creates more questions. " maybe he did not want your aspersions! If D&D, HMF, and the rest could post a better dyno they would. Barker and Torque Hammer are the only one's to show improvements and these have not been validated by any other parties. dannybuell p.s. What happened to that guy who knew all about Buell race mappings? Quit coming here just a short time ago. What was his name? | ||
| Ponti1 |
LOL...Could you use the word "aspersion" one more time please? You guys are awfully defensive over someone's comments to someone else. Maybe let those two talk to each other rather than trying to turn up the heat in a discussion of which you were not a part? No need for this to be turned into an argument. Ever hear of "looking at things from every angle"? I don't see any attempts at defamation or aspersion. Rather, I am reading questions of someone who has obviously had to put on a QA hat at some point or another. Take what is presented, and then examine it from all available perspectives...Nothing wrong with that. | ||
| D_adams |
Just leave my momma out of this. | ||
| Dannybuell |
sorry about that I just can't tolerate intolerance. when does the number of states riding on a bike qualify you for anything more than riding a bike? Some people DEMAND and GIVE RESPECT. That world is balanced. Some people DEMAND and NEVER GIVE RESPECT. That world is not balanced. Perhaps the next step up for all of us is to practice giving and receiving respect. Anybody know where I can get a good coffee table book? dannybuell | ||
| D_adams |
Yup, I got just the book for you. http://www.amazon.com/25-Years-Buell-Court-Canfiel d/dp/1884313744 | ||
| Blake |
"OK Say the O2 sensor sees 15:1 and the computer is demanding 14.7. So what your saying is the computer adds enough fuel to get to that .3 difference to be equal and then adds that same amount of X value to the map?" A narrow band sensor doesn't report voltage that coincides linearly with A/F ratios. Their voltage is much closer to a binary on/off or rich/lean scheme. But yes, the little I understand about how the ECM programming works, it does indeed adjust and shift the entire closed loop by the AFV factor coupled with all the other factors from all the applicable sensors. What else do you think the AFV is for? "that makes no sense... cruising at 90 mph is different from cruising at 45 mph due to loads, drag etc. the value would be different, and the sensor is not accurate enough." Sure it makes sense, perfect sense. The baseline mapping along with the other sensors take care of that via the programming of the ECM. "Look i have no idea honestly WTF buell has going on here." I agree. Yet you claim that removing the OEM narrow band O2 sensor and replacing it with the dynojet's wide band O2 sensor, which produces an entirely, wildly different output voltage scheme has no effect on the dyno testing.
I've never heard of anyone doing a valid dyno test comparison removing the stock O2 sensor, then using the bike to warm up the dyno for ten minutes. That would seem to be a massive variable especially given that with respect to the Buell ECM mapping you state that "i have no idea honestly WTF buell has going on here." Based on what I've seen, your intentions appear good, but your execution is flawed and leaves more questions than answers. I'm no dyno testing expert or Buell EFI expert, however I do know that when you start making assumptions about how the system works, you are making dangerous assumptions. Other questions: How is it that removal of an O2 sensor would not throw a code? Did you connect the ECM to the wide band sensor? If so, what effect might that have? Can you compare voltage output schemes for the range reported by your the dynojet A/F meter versus what a narrow band sensor would report? How does the accuracy and stability of a wide band sensor compare to that of the OEM narrow band sensor? | ||
| Justa4banger |
Blake the wideband O2 was installed just to monitor the ratio, there was no feedback given to the ECM. Also the system did not throw a code since the dyno operator purposely stayed out of the range in which the ECM would try to reference the O2 sensor. he would run the bike on the dyno at various speeds to keep the ecm out of closed loop. as for warming up the Dyno, that wasn't my idea, that is what the dyno operator wanted to do. makes sense to me, we don't go out and beat on our bikes when its flashing cold.. "A narrow band sensor doesn't report voltage that coincides linearly with A/F ratios. Their voltage is much closer to a binary on/off or rich/lean scheme. But yes, the little I understand about how the ECM programming works, it does indeed adjust and shift the entire closed loop by the AFV factor coupled with all the other factors from all the applicable sensors. What else do you think the AFV is for?" this comment is correct..i agree 100% with it... Remember though that under WIDE OPEN THROTTLE, the ECM is in Open loop, which doesn't reference the O2's it uses set parameters that someone wrote in the programming. the range in which o2 sensors are used is like 40% tps and less, X amount of load, and rpm range. now i do not know what values are in those blocks, but i do know that at WOT these requirements are outside of the "closed loop" range As for the ECM not throwing a code for the "missing o2 sensor" it technically wasn't missing, i had the o2 plugged in and the body of the O2 sensor grounded to the battery. it was just hanging in front of the engine. the ecm saw the O2 sensor, it was there. Then the trick was to make sure to not cruise or idle the bike to long and give the ECM a chance to utilize the O2 sensor. we kept it out side of the happy zone for the O2. as for the accuracy of a wideband O2 over the stock O2... do a google search for narrowband and wideband O2. you will easily see the difference. in short narrowband O2 sensors read from 14.2-15.3:1 a/f ratio. each 1/10th of a point in a/fis about .1 volts on the narrowband O2. the narrowband O2 is a 0-1 volt signal. Wide band O2 can read from 10:1-21:1 a/f ratio with a 0-5 volt output signal. the visual difference in O2 sensors is easy. 1-4 wire O2s are narrowband and narrowband with a heater. 5-6 wire O2 sensors are Wideband O2's. so obviously we have narrowband setups. Blake if you haven't read up on O2 sensors please do. once you see how they work and for what purpose they are used. you will better understand my point. Your last comment leads me to believe that you do not understand the different types of O2s, their capabilities or how they work in relation with the ECM. and for the record i'm not being a smartass i just want all of us on the same sheet of music here. I still don't understand why some people think that me having the stock O2 sensor out would change anything. this ecm can run without O2 sensors.........remember ? so really having O2 sensors in or out doesn't mean squat.. if the O2 sensors were disconnected the map would still be the same thus leading to the same lean conditions i was faced with... | ||
| Justa4banger |
Just keep in mind guys, i'm surely not here to discourage anyone from buying any product. AND i honestly have nothing to gain or hide by lying to any of you.... all that would do is dicredit me in the future, once people found out... why would i strive for that? (Message edited by justa4banger on February 12, 2010) | ||
| Hellgate |
Court, What I decide to put in the open is my call. I used to have a full profile out there but I decide to take it down. Unless of course it is a requirement? And I registered a year ago, not last week. Obviously you don't recall the phone call we had about a year ago. You were praising my service in Iraqi with the Army. You told me you and your father were patriotic and watch John Wayne movies which made you feel in touch with those of us who have actually pulled a trigger. | ||
| Jules |
Well, even though I never posted in this thread before or took part in this discussion I appreciate all of the time and effort involved. I'm still happy to use info posted on the web as a handy reference guide but will still apply my own knowledge and experience to the data presented (as I do with most things). It's a shame that this one series of tests has not answered every question but then again i never expected it to - it just adds to the collective knowledge pool. TBH I am not entirely certain if I'll ever dyno my bike... One blown engine incident has put me off that for the time being (not a Buell) and I'm more interested in SOTP results (my SOTP LOL) although obviously I am concerned about changes that make the bike even more lean than stock so that's a bit of a quandry for me at the moment... TBH like a few people on here I knew nothing about closed V open loop operation prior to buying the bike and I am on a steep learning curve. I just wish there was a night-school course available to me! Fortunately for me I have a tiny bit of disposable income and a very understanding wife, so I'll fit the Barker (when it arrives) and ride it for a bit and then go all "old school" and check the plugs to see how they look - and then I will buy a Race ECU and see if it feels any better.. it's not like I'd struggle to sell it on if it doesn't do what I want. At the end of the day I'm not interested in maximum power - just making the bike feel (and sound) the way I want it without compromising the longevity (much). I work on the principal that the only thing that would work to "prove" to me that a change in exhaust, filter, ECU and possibly fuel map ON MY BIKE is to do those things ON MY BIKE but seeing data from other similar configurations is handy. Thanks again for the data! | ||
| Jules |
You were praising my service in Iraqi with the Army Hellgate - when were you there? It's possible we shared some of the same sand & heat together! Of course you guys had prettier uniforms, but I won't hold that against you LOL | ||
| Hellgate |
I was in lovely Baghdad, Sept '06 until Oct '07. 1SG for a light infantry company. I also had a PLT in Al Kut at Camp Delta so I was doing the route Tampa thing every other week for LOGPAC. I LOVE Sadr City!!! : ) Where and when were you there Jules? | ||
| Mountainstorm |
Again the only cure for all this Hoo-Ha is to wait for EBR to get back with J_banger or for the GODDAM snow to melt so I can trailer my bike to the road and down to a Dyno. My bike is under ESP so I am very nervous about screwing myelf out of a warranty just to satisfy everyone's curiousity. Nonetheless I need to know if my machine is running too lean. Sucks that putting a Buell part on a Buell bike could void the warranty...but now that it's all HD I have fears that they would be more than happy to get out from under that ESP anyway they can. (Message edited by Mountainstorm on February 12, 2010) | ||
| Therealassmikeg |
Court got you reading glasses on? Hellgate appears to have registered in Jan 2009. J4B I realize you are trying to do a good thing here... A few of my thoughts. An ox sensor is an ox sensor, be it wide band or not. Knowing the parameters of the ecm, race or stock is an absolute necessity when tuning. Removing/disconnecting one ox sensor running/dyno tuning is not a good idea regardless of whether you think it has no effect or not, you really don't know. (again you must know the parameters of the ecu) As far as your reaction to the dyno results.. Well You probably would have been bashed either way, even if you said you were not happy, and won't post your comments/results until you get a response from EBR. $250.00 is not a lot of money... Re-dyno the tune with both ox sensors installed, and get your a/f readings a different way.. Cheers, Mike G | ||
| Jules |
I was in the Gulf for the first little activity. (showing my age now). Got out there about a month before it all kicked off properly (mid July 1990) and did some interesting things with a forward party. We started off in Riyadh just "watching" things develop and over the next 9 months we worked our way through Kuwait into Iraq. I have to say I had great fun out there, we definately saw some of the best firework parties in the world - and all for free.. Kuwait was horrible though, I nearly took up smoking, it would've been healthier than breathing the air there! King Khalid AFB was good for R&R though LOL we imported sand from Bahrain so we could truck beer in! Good times! (Message edited by jules on February 12, 2010) | ||
| Xelerator |
That would make the lean shift of all runs plausible. "Re-dyno the tune with both ox sensors installed, and get your a/f readings a different way.." | ||
| Therealassmikeg |
I don't know the parameters of the EBR ecu being used. We can only speculate.. After reading a bunch of these posts on the EBR ecm's, I think many things need to be clarified. What functions are disabled? IE: check engine light?, What parameters the ox sensors function under (now) etc... The most reasonable solution here is make sure the engine is tested with the correct configuration(ox sensors installed) before we make any other assumptions. Then contact with the provider of services/goods will be necessary if results are not as decribed/marketed. Cheers Mike G | ||
| Cptncreme |
Just like someone said prior, at WOT the Oxygen sensors are not used to adjust anything, the vehicle goes into open loop at WOT, so I don't see his test being flawed. I just think maybe EBR needs a little more seat time with the ecm to work the bugs out, because everyone also has a slightly different setup(slip-on brand, etc.). Maybe just change a few things to make it more tolerable on all the varying setups out there. | ||
| Duggram |
"dannybuell p.s. What happened to that guy who knew all about Buell race mappings? Quit coming here just a short time ago. What was his name?" His handle was Strongbad. He's the former Buell race engineer that wrote the maps for the AMA race bikes. He's also a member of the Ruthless Racing team. A very big loss for this forum. You can see his last post here. | ||
| Easyrider |
Therealassmikeg or MikeG, Can you explain why you say (you really don't know. (again you must know the parameters of the ecu) What if i DO, is it then making sense. The biggest problem EBR has to solve, that there is no Tuning manual with the EBR RACE ECM coming. I help a lot of world wide people to teach them the basics how to use EBR's product. I think I have dynoed the most Race ECM in the world as a external shop. It is not a big secret only, the product alows you to tune all parameter inside.. The first times people do this they will search and look and don't understand what to do. That is how mistakes come into the world. So, I don't agree and go on with disconnecting the 02 sensors and tune the bikes (-: |
