| Author | Message | ||
     Rickie_d |
The_italian_job, First - This is not about us (or me) educating you; it is about you educating us, or maybe actually comprehending the fact that EasyRider already addressed your observation/opinion. I quote him saying “I do not make miracles” and something about specific setups. I think I can say, we all understand what you did say, the confusion/problem is why you are saying it, over, and over, and over again. That is a rhetorical statement (it means I don’t need a response). Tip – you might want to research what the ECM program market targets (even the Buell Race ECM); not that it really matters the type of vehicle. Second - You can write your explanation in any language you want since it can always be translated; it just has to be relevant to the context of the topic and not repetitive. After all, if my 20 month old grandson can convey a thought without what I would consider fluidity, it should be a piece of cake for us adults. But then again, he never try’s to tell me about things he does not understand. | ||
| Easyrider |
The Italian Job, You somehow find something on the internet about ------ tell me that you can fine tune a bike even from miles away just knowing what pipe and air filter you have on ----- I only can program ECM for customers when I have the same setup on my dyno before different bikes, with preferable different mileage on the engines to see the need of the Fuel. So I don't know if you think I am some kind of wizard but I am not able to do that. If You go To a Ducati dealer and ask for a stage 1 Kit (I never did) They sell you 1 airfilter, 1 exhaust and a ECM, and you are ready to Go. We race with a lot off Ducati people in the same pitbox Nobody is complaining and nobody is putting the bike on the Dyno. I Know that more manufacturers are doing that, I don’t see the Problem here. Buell Makes 1 fuelmap, and let everybody in the world with the same engine ride it… But I also have to learn. | ||
| Oldog |
EZ-Rider, Good Job on that kit, I had my X1 dynoed bone stock best HP on that dyno (dyno jet) was 85hp peak, there was a similar dip in the output curve. with a low restriction exhaust, and a force winder intake no tuning best was about 87hp the "flat spot" was greatly reduced with about 12 hp added at one point at around 4500 RPM IIRC,, the curve is posted in the KV..... I can see a max of about 90 to 95, understand that there are variations in dynos as there are in tunes between 2 engines off of a production line. I have been following Ccryders test reports on the Torque hammer with interest. Thank you for sharing | ||
| Kalali |
"...best was about 87hp the "flat spot" was greatly reduced with about 12 hp added at one point at around 4500 RPM IIRC.." Sorry, I lost you there...Could you clarify what you mean by 12 hp added...? I am curious because I have the same set up on my X1. Thanks. | ||
| Oldog |
Kal at one point in the mid range there are 12 more hp than stock in the vacinity of "the hole", or dip in the curve, I posted the runs in the KV several years ago the engine milage was not even in the teens at the time | ||
| Buellisticx1 |
I have also had my X1 Dyoned a while back and also there was a similar dip in torque around 2300/2600 rpm range. 1250 kit, Hurricane Forged Piston 10.5:1 compression and Porting Heads from Dan of NRHS; C.F. oval air cleaner and D&D exhaust. The best runs pulled 98.6 HP and 114.3 Nm at the rear wheel. Torque peaked at 4300 rpm and HP peaked at 6900 rpm. Anyone with good knowledge could tell me how to fix the drop in torque at that specific rpm range? (Message edited by buellisticx1 on December 28, 2009) | ||
| Easyrider |
Buellistick1 What is the meaning when you say My X1 Dyoned?. Whit what software did they adjusted what inside the ECM?. This is what i have to know first.. | ||
| Buellisticx1 |
Hello Easyrider, Thanks for your interest, We made the adjustment (Tuner man and me) with ECMSPY software. I spent a great deal of time working on the fuel maps; Firstly, I worked on race Ecm, I made severals data logs and I started tuning with ECMSPY & Megalog viewer. And after, I took the bike on dyno and my bike was tuned with a wide band system. The tuner told me that most air-cooled V twins like to run at 14.0/13.5:1 AFR in the closed loop area so you can run the engine a little richer so that It was my target. It was increased all the values in closed loop area of the fuel map to get a AFR of 14:0, so now the engine runs smoother and better. So the O2 was turned off. I have yet got rid-off the infamous 2.300/2600 RPM torque drop. Only I have noticed a slight improvement subtracting fuel in WOT (at 2500 rpm) and that helped a bit. Now the torque drop is subtle and think it is the way to go but I am not sure because I know adding/reducing fuel blindly is a sure way to screw things up. In many cases, it will have the opposite effect. But the throttle response is very smooth and very strong and more linear through the rpm range but not low end. I also noticed a big top end and midrange power gain. The Bike is running VERY strong and smoother with the exception of the drop in around 2500 RPM area, Could be the exhaust the culprit? The entire EEprom parameters was changed: - O2 OFF. - WOT Enrichment set at 115. - Cold Start Enrichment. - Acceleration Enrichment (FULL ACCEL REVS IN 3). Accel enrichment is bound to RPM, I also increased the value from 20 to 25 in the 2500 rpm range. I'll have to get the bike again on a dyno to see the torque at that rpm range (2500 rpm). Here my dyno sheet; Numbers in left side of the dyno sheet are a bit wrong but you can get an idea of what I'm saying about the Torque drop in around 2.500 rpm. (Norma CEE)  REGARDS. (Message edited by buellisticx1 on December 29, 2009) | ||
| Easyrider |
Oke, can you take a picture of the air intake and the exhaust please... Did you use a air-conditioned Dynoroom or just normal dyno with blower, what where the temperatures in the dynoroom.. What was the amount of brake used on the dyno at measuring... (Message edited by easyrider on December 29, 2009) | ||
| Buellisticx1 |
Bike was tuned in a normal dyno with blower at 33.6 ºC temperature, Humidity on 31.6% and 993 mbar barometric/atmospheric pressure. I have not idea the amount of brake used on the dyno. I have the understanding that with Porting Heads and this setup it produces slightly less low torque, but significantly increases midrange and top end. I forgot to say still using the stock X1 Cams (497) The Tuner said me that Volumetric Efficiency Varies throughout RPM range with an exhaust with less back pressure and an improved intake system efficiency (bigger throttle body or low restriction air cleaner) and the volumetric efficiency depends largely on the geometry of the intake pipe (length, diameter, curvature, etc.). He said me maybe the Torque drop was because of this. Is this really true?........ The same as these pics (Hurricane Flow Air cleaner and D&D Exhaust:     Thanks so much for taking your time to answer my question, It’s very much appreciated. (Message edited by buellisticx1 on December 29, 2009) | ||
| Easyrider |
Oke, Good choice of air filter, The Exhaust I don't know never had it on the dyno before. You can program every exhaust to run good on a dyno. You shouldent look at the max HP and Torque graph as a rider because it says something about a situation, you don't copy on the road. The question is, when you are in 4-5th gear and open the throttle wide, do you feel the engine hesitation?. If the engine as you descripe pulls good, and feels good, that is the most important thing. It is impossible to say something without seeing the data. If you want a second opinion, You can send me a copy of the ignition and fuel table, and when I have some time left, I can have a look at it and see if I can make any suggestions for you. When that is not possible, i also let you know. (Message edited by easyrider on December 30, 2009) | ||
| Buellisticx1 |
I have not any problem to sharing the fuel and timing maps on here to everyone can to see them. After a few Dyno sessions these are the fuel and timing maps improved. FUEL MAP FRONT http://img407.imageshack.us/i/fuelmapfront1250kit. png/ FUEL MAP REAR http://img96.imageshack.us/i/fuelmaprear1250kit.pn g/ REAR&FRONT TIMING ARE THE SAME: http://img44.imageshack.us/i/timingtable.png/ As I said I increased by 3 Full Accel revs ( it will give more fuel for a longer time) and I noticed a slight improvement. I also increased the Acceleration Enrichment correction just in 2500rpm from 20% to 25% and helped. But still feel a little stumbling when you are in 4-5th gear and at very low rpm (around 2500 rpm) opening the throttle wide to try to give it some gas real quick to bring the revs up. It just happens in 2500 rpm range exactly where produces the torque drop (coincidence?....). Slow twisting works just fine. Thank you very much for sharing your experience with me. I appreciate it very much!. | ||
| Easyrider |
mmhhh, very strange... In my 1250 kits that I tuned on the X1 almost to simular builds, I have completly different fuel needs. What is really wrong is that with your fuel table and injector timing at WOT you can make it with only 115. Oke let's try something. What is the flash of your ECM (version) I need to know the TPS range and the RPM range. Give me a fuel sheet and mark the area where you feel the stumbling. I will give you then the new timing and fuel and you can put them in and test if it works. | ||
| Buellisticx1 |
No rush at all. no reason to rush on the bike. FIRMAWARE VERSION BUEKA210 (ECM RACE X1) CALIBRATION ID 68. To give you an idea of what I mean: "Stumbling" It just happens betwen 2400/2700 rpm range/WOT, exactly where produces the torque drop. RPM / TPS 175/255 (WOT): RPM: 2000 ------ 76,3 Nm de par RPM 2100 ------ 76,4 Nm " RPM 2200 ------ 75,1 Nm " RPM 2300 ------ 73,1 Nm " RPM 2400 ------ 71,5 Nm " RPM 2500 ------ 70,4 Nm " RPM 2600 ------ 70,7 Nm " RPM 2700 ------ 72,9 Nm " RPM 2800 ------ 76,4 Nm " RPM 2900 ------ 81,0 Nm " RPM 3000 ------ 85,5 Nm " http://img709.imageshack.us/i/copiadefuelmapfront1250.png/ I wish you a Happy New Year. REGARDS. (Message edited by buellisticx1 on January 01, 2010) | ||
| Kalali |
What do you mean by this statement? "...you can make it with only 115" What is your AFV? | ||
| Buellisticx1 |
115 WOT Enrichment. My AFV is always in 100 with the O2 turn off. (Message edited by buellisticx1 on December 31, 2009) | ||
| Easyrider |
Kalali, 130 at WOT, for a stock Engine.. (Message edited by easyrider on January 02, 2010) | ||
| Easyrider |
Buellisticx1 , AFV and WOT Enrichment, are 2 different settings We are talking about the amount of Fuell extra added at Wide open Throtthle (WOT) When you open the Throttle full. | ||
| Buellisticx1 |
Easyrider, the stock ECM (BUEKA210 INTERNATIONAL) WOT Enrichment is set at 110, the X1 Race ECM too. I've also seen WOT Enrichment at 110 for stock and Race ECM XB series (Race ECM XB9 Firmware Version BUECB050, 2003 year WOT Enrichment at 105), but never 130 as you says. I knew that the AFV and WOT are two different things, just trying to answer to Kalali about what is my AFV. Regards. (Message edited by buellisticx1 on January 02, 2010) | ||
| Easyrider |
Buellisticx1, With 130 WOT on a stock Engine, In some area's you almost out of injector reach.. I always try to keep the injector opening around 240... As i say before, 110 is to poor much to poor for a 1250 kit with stage 2 heads (Message edited by easyrider on January 02, 2010) | ||
| Buellisticx1 |
My WOT is set at 115 not 110 and I am running with stage 1 Porting Heads from NRHS. | ||
| Easyrider |
Buellisticx1, I still think the AF is too low for that.. | ||
| Buellisticx1 |
Bike running very strong and smoother and it is great on torque and power except in 2500 RPM range, anyway i'll try to add a bit of Enrichment in WOT as you say. I'll increase it to 120 and going to go for a test ride I'll let you know how it goes. Thank you very much for your support and your suggestions. Really appreciate your help. | ||
| Buellisticx1 |
Please Easyrider, I have a few questions for you: What do you mean: "In my 1250 kits that I tuned on the X1 almost to similar builds, I have completly different fuel needs". MORE OR LESS FUEL&TIMING IN ENTIRE MAP OR JUST IN A MAP AREA?...... "I always try to keep the injector opening around 240... " MAXIMUM OPENING OF INJECTOR IS 255, ISN'T? "I still think the AF is too low for that.. "WHAT DO YOU MEAN TO TOO LOW?.. RICHER OR LEANER AIR/FUEL? Thanks in advanced. | ||
| Easyrider |
Buellisticx1, In the entire map Yes the maximum opening time of the injector is 255. You stress the injector too much to keep it above 250 With too low, I mean there is NOT enough fuel going in, so Low means LEAN | ||
| Buellisticx1 |
Ok here an update: It has finally stopped raining here where I live in Spain and am went for a test ride (WOT ENRICHMENT AT 120). I'm very pleased with the outcome and with the way it ran. The engine pulls better then before at WOT from 3000 rpm to up. I also noticed a big top end and midrange power gain.But What's confusing me is that the stumbling in 2500 rpm&WOT is more pronounced now. I suppose due to the increased WOT enrichment. This behavior is becoming very annoying now! Could this be the main problema?.... It happens after the engine is thoroughly warmed up when I try to give it some gas real quick to bring the revs up from very low rpm (2500 rpm), slow twisting works just fine. "Stumbling" It just happens between 2400/2700 rpm range/WOT, exactly where produces the torque drop. Not getting yet get rid of infamous 2500 RPM torque drop...  | ||
| Easyrider |
Are you sure there is no manifold Intake leak somewhere on the 2 rubber gaskets from the manifold to the cylinders.. | ||
| Buellisticx1 |
I put new intake seals and injector o-rings along with the 1250 kit this last summer and from the beginning it happens. But I wonder if that were the case why only happens at 2500 rpm and at WOT??? But I think not because when engine is warmed up the idle hovers around 1000 rpm and the bike has no symptoms of leakage. Anyway I will check when I have time. I'll let you know how that comes out. Thanks for reply | ||
| Easyrider |
last summer is a long time ago (-: You always need to check this. (Do you know how) Why it happends at only 2500 because the pressure in the manifold is big at 2500. On idle and slow throttle you feel nothing, only when the manifold builds up pressure when you quick hit the throttle. | ||
| Alex |
Yes the maximum opening time of the injector is 255. You stress the injector too much to keep it above 250 1. The value 255 on its own doesn´t say anything about the actual injector opening time. Therefore it is pretty senseless to state that keeping it above 250 stresses the injector too much. 2. Most real torque dips result from interaction of exhaust and intake systems or reversions from exhausts and/or cam timing. You can not tune these away with fuel or spark maps. They are a result of insufficient cylinder fill. Regards Alex |
