| Author | Message | ||
     Rocketman |
If Biaggi were in Moto GP on a Fiat Yamaha it would be difficult not to imagine he'd be a title contender. It would be interesting to see Rossi racing a superbike. Rocket | ||
| Liquorwhere |
If Biaggi were in Moto GP on a Fiat Yamaha it would be difficult not to imagine he'd be a title contender. In fact he may be far superior on the 800 cc than he ever was on the 990, he was brilliant in the 250 class, I think the translation is closer to that class than the superbike he is riding now. I have read, because I don't know him personally, that he can be quite an a$$hat to work with, and he had a bin it or win it attitude that didn't set well with factory teams. I would like to see him come back to GP, just to see if I am right.... | ||
| Jaimec |
At one point, when Rossi rode for Honda, and Biaggi rode for Yamaha, Biaggi declared in an interview that if he'd had Rossi's bike, he'd win GPs. The next year, they switched factories... Biaggi to Repsol Honda, Rossi to Gauloises (now Fiat) Yamaha. Guess what? Biaggi STILL lost to Rossi. | ||
| Vagelis46 |
Biaggi had many chances to win a GP and a WSBK title, but he failed. He is a great rider, but he will not get a title for Aprilia. I guess Aprilia knows this, so they are looking for a talented new rider. DeAngelis or Camier ?? | ||
| Trojan |
If Biaggi were in Moto GP on a Fiat Yamaha it would be difficult not to imagine he'd be a title contender. It would be interesting to see Rossi racing a superbike. I think pretty much any of the top 6 could win on the Fiat Yamaha, which is more testament to the bike that Rossi has developed rather than to individual rider talent. It is undoubtedly the best all round MotoGP package right now and is THE bike to get on if you want to run at the front. Biaggi was incapable of developing the Yamaha into a winning package when he raced for them, but spent more time moaning about it than actually riding it. Next year it will be interesting to see if Honda can bridge the gap to Yamaha nad if Ducati can get their bike to work for anyone other than Stoner. Suzuki are making virtually no ground at all with their new bike and Capirossi sounded very frustrated after the tests last week  DeAngelis or Camier ?? Camier (unless all Aprilia are looking for is sponsorship money of course). | ||
| Rocketman |
Something I know little to nothing about. The development skills of Rossi and Burgess is phenomenal. Of that there is no question. We are told this many times in all forms of media, and the results would have us believe the explanations, therefore supporting that we are told this pairing is everything we are told it is. I would have little to no clue as to how good or not at all Biaggi or others are at developing their bikes. In the case of Biaggi, he might not be up there with Rossi (I wouldn't know) but I do know Yamaha would not invest the effort in all ways to Biaggi that they did for Rossi. When Yamaha took Rossi on they were basically in a shit or bust situation. Thanks to Rossi and Burgess and Yamaha putting their money behind the pairing, they turned their fortune around. I'm not sure how the RCV figured into Biaggi's effort when he finally got his bum on one, but if memory serves, Honda spread themselves a little thin in supporting several RCV efforts and not concentrating their primary effort into supporting Biaggi as their number 1 rider. Wasn't this something to do with Biaggi's criticism of Honda which led to him falling on his sword? Rocket | ||
| Liquorwhere |
Wasn't this something to do with Biaggi's criticism of Honda which led to him falling on his sword? Isn't that his career problem? Constantly blaming the bike for his inability to win? At least in the GP class? He is an interesting story for sure, didn't even ride a bike until he was 18 or so, his mother popped out for a smoke and never came home while he was young, he won his first race he ever rode, and he won his first GP race, first WSBK race, but there is something missing. Rossi is a superior talent for sure, but I think Burgess gets the most out of that talent as well, in the case of Rossi it is definitely a team effort. One could speculate that without Burgess maybe not so dominant? Still a world champion, still a star, but even though Rossi may be excellent at his feedback on the bike, you have to have someone that can take that feedback and get the bike to where the rider needs it. Burgess, if I am not mistaken, is a disciple of Erv Kanamoto, the pedigree is there for success. I think burgess is equally as important as Rossi when it comes to victories. Max seems to be a bit more subdued in WSBK, maybe that is his place, but I would still like to see him on an 800cc GP bike just to see how he does. He carries tons of corner speed and is not afraid of twisting that throttle, he may be able to ride that wicked Ducati....but I don't think we will ever find that out for sure. | ||
| Jaimec |
I think Max is finally maturing in World Superbike. That's what we're seeing here. He was "King of the Hill" in 125 and 250 GPs and everyone assumed he'd be the same in the premiere class. When he wasn't, he started blaming everything but his own ability. I think that year off unemployed forced him to face reality and he came into WSBK understanding a LITTLE something of humility. Of course, I could be completely off-base too... | ||
| Vagelis46 |
"Camier (unless all Aprilia are looking for is sponsorship money of course)." I looks that both Camier and DeAngelis will get a Aprilia WSBK ride. Aprilia gave up their moto2 project. Their WSBK racing program will get stronger. Aprilia racing with a Honda engine ? It sounds stupid. I am glad they decided to quit. Moto2 has many lateral benefits, it seems....Great! I have a feeling that DeAngelis will boost the WSBK racing. I expected more from Camier in his Aprilia debut in the rounds he raced. Is Camier the new Sykes-Byrne ?.....another "great" BSB rider that "fails" in WSBK. Or is Camier the new Haslam ?..... a BSB rider that does better than expected and greatly contributing in WSBK racing ?? | ||
| Rocketman |
How can you say Byrne failed? One season on an outdated Ducati much underfunded and lacking in development campaigned by a team with not enough budget. You need to state facts not your eyeballing of the goggle box theories please. Rocket | ||
| Rocketman |
Actually I think Haslam's been much overrated. He's great, but comes off second best more often than he should. And he's not set the world on fire in WSBK. Rocket | ||
| Vagelis46 |
It seems that you have not been watching WSBK races this season, or following the series lately. Haslam was the 2nd biggest pleasant surprise of the season, after Spies. He was running at the front in many races, and showed great fighting spirit. Byrne, who at the begginning of the season was considered a favourite for the title, was the biggest dissapointment of the season. | ||
| Vagelis46 |
"Rossi is a superior talent for sure, but I think Burgess gets the most out of that talent as well, in the case of Rossi it is definitely a team effort. " It is sad that Edwards is not given the right amount of credit in the success of developing the M1. It might sound "strange" to the Rossi lovers, but Edwards did all the shit-work in developing the M1. It was Edwards request to make the crank rotating in the "opposite" direction. But in the world we are living, all the glory goes to the "golden boys" ,and people that do the hard work get neglected. Is Edwards the best development rider ?? 1. VTR SP1 - SP2 got the WSBK title for Honda against the mighty Ducati-Bayliss. And he did it with a brand new designed V-2, when Honda had only experience with V-4s 2. M1..............No more comments 3. Yamaha is still paying Edwards salary.....Why ? Is he that fast ?..No....Are they afraid that he will be signed by a rival GP team, so he will work his "magic" on the development of their bike??.....Yes 4. I think the world will be surprised of what Spies will accomplish with a Edwards developed and set-up bike next year.... | ||
| Rocketman |
Haslam campaigned a works Honda, got beat by his teammate of much less superbike experience, and only scored 241 points all season. Byrne campaigned an out of date uncompetitive and troublesome satellite Ducati run by a team which dropped their second rider through lack of money during the early part of the season. Yet Byrne with the exception of Checa who was riding a more than competitive Ken Take Honda was only beaten by the might of the factory teams / riders. Haslam has had a gifted rise to WSB given he had top rides in BSB for several seasons where he failed under pressure to secure the title at least twice when it was in the grasp of his hands. Rocket | ||
| Vagelis46 |
Who was Haslam's teammate, that managed to beat Haslam ?#@??? No one is gifted a WSBK ride. Haslam earned his Suzuki ride for the 2010. Why you dislike Leon so much? | ||
| Trojan |
But in the world we are living, all the glory goes to the "golden boys" ,and people that do the hard work get neglected. I think you will find that the glory goes to the winners, not the people who spend a career coming 5th, hence Rossi gets more glory than Edwards. Also, Rossi did FAR more development of the M1 than Edwards, Checa, Lorenzo, Biaggi and the rest of the other Yamaha riders put together. This is why Rossi is so P*ssed that Lorenzo gets equal equipment when he has done all the work. Rossi was always happy to have Edwards as a team mate not because Colin was a great development rider, but because he was not a threat to Rossi's title aspirations. Without the input of Valentino Rossi and Gerry Burgess the M1 would still be an also ran and would certainly not have become the force that it currently is. Haslam campaigned a works Honda, got beat by his teammate of much less superbike experience, and only scored 241 points all season. Haslam's Honda was far less specified thana 'works' bikes of the Ten kate team (effectively the factory Honda team) and was hampered all year by lack of development and a severe lack of cash. By the end of the year the Stiggy Honda team had lost their major sponsor and were reduced to running just one bike for Haslam and cancelling their otehr WSB and WSS comittments altogether. Far from being beaten by his team mate, Haslam was faster than both of his (much overrated) teammates all year, and was certainly never beaten by either Hopkins or his predecessor Robby Rolfo as far as I can remember. Haslam is a very talented rider with huge experience given his tender years, and definitely deserves to be in a top factory WSB team or in Moto2, which would suit his style much better I think. He has in the past been hampered by some underfunded and uncompetitive machinery duringhis career (with a few notable exceptions) that he has made look better than it actually was. I hope that Suzuki can come up with a competitive package for 2010 that will show what he is truly capable of doing. | ||
| Jaimec |
Matt, you seem to forget that the years that Rossi developed the bike, only Rossi was winning on it. The year following the post season where Rossi did NOT participate in the testing/development (health issues), Colin did the grunt work and the next season EVERYONE riding the M1 was at the front. You seem to conveniently forget that. Of course, as the year wore on, Lorenzo and Rossi pulled ahead whilst Edwards and Toseland did not, but at the beginning of the year, all four riders were riding a bike that COLIN developed. And yes, Rossi has said on NUMEROUS occasions that he wouldn't be where he is without Jeremy Burgess. Before Rossi, Jeremy worked with a couple of other front-runners named Gardner and Doohan... so he knows how to put a bike on the box. But this is the World Superbike thread, so let's move this discussion over to the MotoGP thread where it belongs? Back on topic: During the testing season, I seem to recall it was Shakey Byrne who was opening up everyone's eyes setting the fastest laps. Don't know why he wasn't able to continue that when it actually COUNTED. | ||
| Trojan |
Matt, you seem to forget that the years that Rossi developed the bike, only Rossi was winning on it. The year following the post season where Rossi did NOT participate in the testing/development (health issues), Colin did the grunt work and the next season EVERYONE riding the M1 was at the front. Rossi has never missed a winter testing schedule since he started racing, so I don't know which year you refer to when you say that he missed testing due to health issues. Also, youhave to remember that Colin Edwards openly stated that he found Rossi's setup 'almost unrideable' so it is of little importance to Rossi how Edwards develops or sets up his bike, simply because he has his own tweaks and tricks that work only for him. If Edwards had developed the bike for other riders to race easier then why have none of them won on it apart from Lorenzo (who copies the setup of Rossis bike almost exactly). Back on topic: During the testing season, I seem to recall it was Shakey Byrne who was opening up everyone's eyes setting the fastest laps. Don't know why he wasn't able to continue that when it actually COUNTED. It is pretty widely accepted that Shakey surprised even the Ducati hierarchy with his testing performances last winter. To the extent that they pulled 'factory' parts destined for the Sterilgarda team in order that their Xerox riders were not embarressed? apparently so. The bike that SHakey did most of the season on was of lesser spec than the one he tested on Next year he and Checa have access to the very same bikes that won Byrne the BSB title in 2008, although they will allegedly be updated to be 'very close' to the factory spec bikes of Haga and Fabs. Somehow I don't think they will be THAT close. | ||
| Vagelis46 |
"If Edwards had developed the bike for other riders to race easier then why have none of them won on it apart from Lorenzo (who copies the setup of Rossis bike almost exactly). " !!!! How can Lorenzo copy Rossi's setup ??? There is a wall, that Rossi demanded! Also Rossi was riding a different spec M1, lets not forget that. But I personally do not feel sorry for Lorenzo about the way he is treated by Rossi and Yamaha. He had his chance to either go to Honda or Ducati, but he got "scared" of the new challenge. Now he can "suck" it....having to ride a lower spec bike than Rossi and get beaten. "It is pretty widely accepted that Shakey surprised even the Ducati hierarchy with his testing performances last winter. To the extent that they pulled 'factory' parts destined for the Sterilgarda team in order that their Xerox riders were not embarressed? apparently so. " So Byrne is faster than Haga to the extend that he would embarass Haga........... No further comments....... | ||
| Rocketman |
Matt, I will bow to your greater knowledge if you say Haslam had such woes. Though I still think he's had the equipment to do it in BSB, but accept there can only be one winner. Rocket | ||
| Rocketman |
So Byrne is faster than Haga to the extend that he would embarass Haga........... No further comments....... Who knows. But Byrne could have been a title contender had he been Haga's teammate. And with Haga's season not quite complete, we might have seen Byrne coming to the fore and taking to and / or from Spies. Rocket | ||
| Liquorwhere |
Who knows. But Byrne could have been a title contender had he been Haga's teammate. And with Haga's season not quite complete, we might have seen Byrne coming to the fore and taking to and / or from Spies Well that is a big who knows...I like Shakey, but even in the GP class he didn't seem to have the speed to stay at the front. Great in the wet, great in BSB, at times fast in WSBK, but I only saw a few podiums out of him. Maybe if he were on a factory ride that may have changed, but Ducati didn't see in him what they saw in Haga, so we won't know. I don't think he is of the caliber as Spies, I didn't Spies was the caliber of rider he has shown himself to be in the last year to be honest...after the GP races he did on the Suzuki, I didn't think he had a prayer in WSBK, definitely not in the first year. Happy to be proven wrong by him and I wish him well in GP, but I was stunned to be honest. | ||
| Vagelis46 |
You must be the first American I know that is not "crazy" about Spies. | ||
| Liquorwhere |
You must be the first American I know that is not "crazy" about Spies. I didn't say I didn't like him, I just didn't think he could stay with the European riders in WSBK. he proved me wrong, and that is fine. It was good to be proven wrong on that guy.  | ||
| Liquorwhere |
Could Shakey Byrne and Jacob Smrz be riding Aprilia's in WSBK next season??? The link is to the rumor mill..... http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2009/Nov/091124b17. htm | ||
| Vagelis46 |
Just wait and see what Spies will do to the GP riders next year. I thought Byrne and Checa will ride for Althea Ducati...http://www.motomatters.com/node?page=1 | ||
| Liquorwhere |
I think you are right, it looks as though that was the team he rode for in 2009....but either way another Aprilia team on the grid would be nice to see yes? I would be more excited if you had not pointed out Shakey is already on a Ducati, but I will live I would like to see what he could do with a factory set up Aprilia. | ||
| Vagelis46 |
I think Cal Crutchlow is the rider to watch for next year. | ||
| Liquorwhere |
Not Camier? I think Rea is the rider to watch personally, I think he is maturing quite well and will be wicked fast and hard to beat next season. Anyone think the A$$Hat John Hopkins will find a ride next season? Yes I am very much anti-Hopkins..... | ||
| Rocketman |
Byrne had a Lamborghini until recently. Surely that makes him better than Haga and Spies right there! Rocket |
