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Chessm
| | Posted on Thursday, October 29, 2009 - 08:21 pm: | 
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the 250 racing is closer due to the fact that there isnt as much of a performance difference between the bikes. unlike the 800s where there is a huge disparity in the performance of the bikes. |
Fast1075
| | Posted on Friday, October 30, 2009 - 09:39 am: |
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Thanks for the vid Brumbear...that brings back memories. |
Er_rn
| | Posted on Sunday, November 01, 2009 - 10:55 pm: |
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OMG! I love Rossi! I'd have have his children... |
Jraice
| | Posted on Sunday, November 01, 2009 - 11:05 pm: |
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Yeah Rossi is an easy guy to like... his style is pretty sweet, wait till the last second and then pass aggressively for 1st.
Most of the time I get the vibe that he is a kid just having some fun, while Biaggi is out to win and pushing himself much harder (tests show Biaggi's heart rate maxing out at 170 while racing and Rossi's is in the low 100's tops)...
But there was a part in Faster and Faster (the 2nd disc) where you see a side of Rossi that is less friendly, when his position is actually threatened. Sete (Cant recall last name, starts with a G I believe) gives him a solid run for his money winning three races all in the wet. He is said to just be a great wet rider but then at the next dry race he comes up hard on Rossi, who slows in the straights to challenge Sete and basically watch how he rides.
Rossi waits until the last minute to pass for the win and cant make it, giving Sete the victory. I believe he comes and wins a few more races afterwards... I stopped watching the 2nd disc at that time.
Funny thing is I never heard of him, yet I knew almost every other name in the movie who wasnt really talked about, just said little tidbits (Lorenzo, Hayden, etc...) |
Jaimec
| | Posted on Monday, November 02, 2009 - 07:18 am: |
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Sete Gibernau. I always liked him. He was a moose compared to the other riders on the grid and he could push Rossi HARD. They started out as friends, but after an incident where Honda forced Rossi to start from the rear of the grid for cleaning his starting position, Rossi blamed Gibernau DIRECTLY and swore he'd never win another GP.
Gibernau, by the way, is his MIDDLE name. His last name is "Bulto," and any hard core dirt riders will recognize that name for sure. |
Iamarchangel
| | Posted on Monday, November 02, 2009 - 09:41 am: |
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Yep. old enough to remember when the terrorists strapped a bomb to the senior Bulto's chest. He had a heart attack and died, after the rescue I believe. He was the brains and the heart of the organization and Bultaco collapsed after that. |
Fed
| | Posted on Monday, November 02, 2009 - 01:22 pm: |
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think I heard one of the motogp commentators say that Rossi told Gilbernau
that he will never win another gp race. I think that was at the same race Rossi kind of nudged him offline on the last lap...
but I’m old and memory is shot |
Jaimec
| | Posted on Monday, November 02, 2009 - 01:47 pm: |
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Close. The race occurred some time after that vow Rossi made, though.
And that was a tough call. Gibernau went wide, Rossi dived into the opening as Gibernau went to close the door. The two touched, and Sete ran off into the gravel.
Since the race was in Spain, and Gibernau was Spanish, there was a huge uproar over that move. |
Deanbush
| | Posted on Monday, November 02, 2009 - 10:18 pm: |
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Everybody needs to read the article in the December 2009 issue of Bicycling Magazine,page 21, article with Ben Bostrom, very "ENLIGHTEN"! |
46champ
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 03, 2009 - 12:08 am: |
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Which is faster? Thru the whole 990 era if you wanted to you could ride a 500 two stroke. Not sure anyone did after the first year. When the 800's came out the 500 two strokes were banned. In retrospect I'm not sure they needed to but you can see the fear was there that the 500's with traction control would be competitive. That of course would not be permitted by Honda. |
Brumbear
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 03, 2009 - 07:51 am: |
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I know for a fact the 990's were more usable not such a terror ride as the 500 duece so I guess that makes em faster by proxy but the 500's were the bikes to watch they were really just raw raw raw power |
Jaimec
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 03, 2009 - 08:56 am: |
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The important thing to remember is that the riders now are lapping faster than they ever have in HISTORY with the 800 four strokes on the same tracks. There's your answer right there as to which bikes were faster.
The reduction to 800cc was SUPPOSED to slow the field down. Best laid plans and all that... |
Jraice
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 03, 2009 - 10:31 am: |
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What makes the 800's faster?
Better handling? Then why werent the 500's as fast...
Around the same time the 800's came about was there a breakthrough in computer aided rider control etc... etc...?
Anyways I think I found my answer in the movie. Straight line speed's of 200mph were fast in the two stroke era but all the racer's say it was rather slow when the 990's came about. At first they were doing 210mph. The bigger teams with the fastest riders quickly pushed that to 215mph.
Also many of the riders, specifically I recall Biaggi, said in interviews that they liked the increase in power of the 990. |
Jaimec
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 03, 2009 - 11:59 am: |
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The 800s also benefit from over half a decade of frame, tire and suspension development. Its not just the engines that get changed from year to year.
Have you seen the lean angles these guys attain during a race?? I'm simply amazed the tires still grip the track at those speeds and lean angles. |
Fed
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 03, 2009 - 01:06 pm: |
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Jraice
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 03, 2009 - 07:03 pm: |
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Seen crazier lean angles then that for sure! It is pretty impressive...
But those guys leaned pretty hard on the 500's as well...
I do understand that the 800's are mostly faster because of other advances though. |
Aptbldr
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 03, 2009 - 07:15 pm: |
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"New" bikes have traction control.
Data-logging for chassis & power.
Mo' better tire technology. |
Brumbear
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 03, 2009 - 07:24 pm: |
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the straighter the bike the better leaning isn't always good the bikes today are surely impressive but I love the old untamed machines no realtime data no heat sensors on the brakes no lean angle sensors no instant run time mapping its getting to the point where we don't need the riders not really but you get my point. The bike the rider and the track its pure I like it best
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Jraice
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 03, 2009 - 07:37 pm: |
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I agree...
I think the end of the 500 era should've been the cutoff point tech wise.
Sure, move to I4's that are wickedly fast and just as brutal as the 500 two strokes were, and fine, make the tires way stickier but I think we could do without all the electronics.
Bike should consist of the bikes power, and the riders ability to tame it at race pace, not the techs ability to tame it. |
Brumbear
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 03, 2009 - 07:48 pm: |
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HUSAAAAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
Jaimec
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 03, 2009 - 08:40 pm: |
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Jraice, you ARE aware that there are only two IL4s in MotoGP (and next year there will be only one), right? |
Jraice
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 03, 2009 - 09:45 pm: |
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Just meant to say 4 strokes...
On that topic though, are there any twins?
(Message edited by jraice on November 03, 2009) |
Jaimec
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 03, 2009 - 10:41 pm: |
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Nope. All four cylinders. For twins, look to World Superbikes.
There are no rules prohibiting twins, mind you... just everyone is running a four. In the 990 era, Honda ran a V-5, and Aprilia tried a triple, but in the 800cc era, they're all fours. |
Jraice
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 03, 2009 - 11:06 pm: |
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So your saying most of the bikes are V4's?
Any reason why the Japanese Superbikes are still I4's if the "hottest bikes in the world"... MotoGP... made by them, are V's? |
Jaimec
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 04, 2009 - 10:09 am: |
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"Anonymous" posted a response to a similar question I made a few years ago on the MotoGP thread in the racing forum.
At the RPMs that MotoGP bikes attain, the longer crankshafts of the IL4 bike experience a "whip" effect of which the shorter crankshafts of the V4s are more resistant.
The "Long Bang" crankshaft of the Yamaha avoids this by spreading the firing order around the crank at 90 degrees instead of 180 like a traditional IL4 engine. The only bike using a traditional IL4 crank in MotoGP is the Hayate (Kawasaki), which will not be competing next year (Kawasaki has decided to concentrate their racing efforts in World Superbikes).
At the RPMs street bikes attain, it isn't as much of an issue.
This is from memory, affected by age and time so take it for what it's worth. |
Jraice
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 04, 2009 - 10:22 am: |
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So besides the whip effect are their other differences between the I4 and the V4 in racing applications?
I always thought the I4's were used on a lot of street bikes because thats what the racers were using, and thats what people like... rather then because an I4 is a good street based motor (you cant really argue that it is, atleast not compared to other variations).
A V4 seems like it would be a better street motor, and considering all the GP bikes run it I am surprised they arent making V4 production bikes as well. |
46champ
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 04, 2009 - 11:23 am: |
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V4's cost more to make than I4's. There is a price conscious consumer out there. |
Jaimec
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 04, 2009 - 11:49 am: |
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46champ: There ya go! Compare the price of the Yamaha YZF-R1 to the new Aprilia RSV4 non-factory and you'll see.
Also, compare the price of the Honda VFR (non-ABS) to the Suzuki GSXR-750 for another comparison. |
Jaimec
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 04, 2009 - 11:54 am: |
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AN IL4 is also more compact with fewer moving parts and fewer cast parts than a V4. They can be easily tuned to produce a wide powerband (as BMW does with their K engines), or a peaky screamer with a narrow powerband (like most 600cc sportbikes).
Really, since no current streetbike revs in the neighborhood of 20,000 rpm, the advantages of the V4 don't serve much of a purpose for the street. |
Jraice
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 04, 2009 - 01:00 pm: |
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MotoGP rev's to 20,000rpm? Crazy! |
Jaimec
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 04, 2009 - 01:15 pm: |
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Have you watched the races on Speed? They often show you the telemetry of the bikes including speed, engine rpm, lean angles, etc. Fascinating stuff to watch!
Last round at Valencia this weekend. GO BEN SPIES!! |
Chessm
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 04, 2009 - 01:57 pm: |
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just to add to to why you don't see too many v4's out there are costs and balls. It costs a lot more (in money and time) to design a new motor from scratch than it does to use an existing design and just improve on it.
One place that you can see this is in the xb engines.
The second reason is that the major moto makers usually don't have to balls to step out of their comfort zone. This leads to bikes being designed by committee. While there are exceptions, bikes generally follow a cookie cutter design process where instead of revolutionary innovation, you get bikes that are exactly the same but just have slight improvments.
This is why buells are so f'n cool and harley the ball-less no imagination bastiches they are decided to stop making buells... So they can concentrate on making more of the same crap.
Yes i'm bitter. |
Fast1075
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 04, 2009 - 02:00 pm: |
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An interesting, but not successful GP engine was the Honda NR-500 oval piston four stroke...technically a V-4....in all actuality, a V-8 in disguise.
If your bank-roll permits using unobtainium, unrealmium, unknownmium and air for valve springs...you only have the laws of physics between you and the upper limit...if you get the stroke short enough and can control the valves, and afford the exotic materials along with their exceedingly short life...you got it. |
