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Buell2001b
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 20, 2009 - 11:17 pm: | 
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Guys I have a feeling that HD knows what they have with Buell, this is why they will not sell it, they know that without Buell. The japanesse are going to do a Pearl Harbour on HD.
Just look at the sales that the 4 jappanese brands have gained in cruiser market share over HD.
I figure give it 2 quarters of consecutive gains and BUell will be back. |
Toecutter
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 21, 2009 - 12:09 am: |
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"Make it a Harley-Davidson Ulysses 12X or Lightning 12S" - Transmaniacon_mc
Great... a Ulysses in chrome, and a Lightning with tassels.   |
Transmaniacon_mc
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 21, 2009 - 12:18 am: |
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Well I had heard of Buell but I thought they were just Harley road racers and drag racers. BMW,KTM,Ducati,Suzuki I looked into buying to do adventure riding but knew nothing of Buell. I am a very old dirt bike loving ex-motocrosser off-road cross country enduro riding rider that is now into adventure riding a Buell Ulysses. I had know idea what a Buell Ulysses xb12x was until I sat on one, Satan's Hog was the first thing that came to mind after I rode it. Even after I sat on one and knew I want it I had a hard time finding things about about the bikes. That harley aftermarket companies make almost nothing for Buells. BMW 1200 gs adventure was what I was going to buy before I sat on a Ulysses. So much lighter great handling beautiful riding Ulysses is so much better than the BMW adventure. KTM, Ducati, and BMW are junk compared to Buell in performance. |
Doylejj
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 21, 2009 - 09:51 pm: |
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Salbrechtnh has touched on some of the probable realities that drove HD's decision to shut down rather than sell. Unfortunately, it takes more accounting knowledge than I have to fathom it.
HD may have wanted to recognize a loss this year even though it has no profits to offset it against. If they can carry over these losses it's like having built-in tax savings in future years to bolster earnings.
Also, since HD had such a tough year it may be helpful to management to have Buell to blame some of it on. Not the new CEO's fault!!!! The less the earnings reported this year the lower the base to report % gains in future years. |
Salbrechtnh
| | Posted on Thursday, October 22, 2009 - 05:27 am: |
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Good point Doylejj, the new CEO who came from Johnson Controls can take a large beating within the 1 year and not be credited with the hit. Since Willie G still sits on the Board it would be unwise to blame him. Buell is an easy target. Plus if you shut down the product you have eliminated the positions and have an easier HR process. I would imagine they are considering the same process with the union contract in PA. If they move the factory to a different state that is far enough away, the positions are essentially eliminated which makes the process easier. Good financial decisions but, but horrible human decisions. I hope he realizes making motorcycles is different from making thermostats. People care more about their bikes than the thermostat on the wall. |
Crackhead
| | Posted on Thursday, October 22, 2009 - 07:08 am: |
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the thermostate at my office works as well as and HD bike. i swear it can't tell the difference between 65 and 85. All it shows is 72.
(Message edited by crackhead on October 22, 2009) |
Blublak
| | Posted on Thursday, October 22, 2009 - 11:47 am: |
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Don't panic.. I think I see the strategy in all this...
ONE - The 'modern' business exec type can only 'see' 3 months ahead. The 'real leaders' look all the way to 5 years.. Erik only looked out 200 years, they couldn't understand it..
TWO - Loss is the new 'Profit'. In keeping with the traditions of the dot com bubble and current Federal thinking, one must loose money to be successful. Buell made money.
THREE - I have no clue why they would want to purchase MV/Agusta, but they did. If it was to mass market the machine, well a quick check on Discovery Channel would have told you that was impossible. 1 designer who can't be rushed. Engine builders that can take as long as they feel they need to build a motor. Etc. etc. etc. So that's a positive loss in the making.
FOUR - Introduce even more models to the market, costing God knows how much to not sell. Then start reducing staff and facilities until you get rid of all that stupid Motorcycle thingy business.
FIVE - The new CEO can then show as much loss as possible, then project how much less he will loose with no employees to pay, facilities to maintain etc. He will shift to selling only Tee Shirts, Doggie Thongs and trinkets produced in some 4th world nation by a child workforce. Showing his projected multi-billion savings will get wild enthusiastic cheers from the 'financial gurus' for 'saving the company' (which they can tell by looking at the numbers that show they will loose much less money and are therefore a raging success once again) and that will let them see almost three months into the future of the company. CEO can now collect his obscene bonus, grab his diamond studded platinum parachute and bail a super success!
F - move on to new company to make them the same kind of raging success.
End of theory. |
Greg_e
| | Posted on Thursday, October 22, 2009 - 12:30 pm: |
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You forgot SIX - moves manufacturing to India since that is where their big market opportunities or for selling bikes, they can then pay the workers $10 a week to crank out bikes for the world and be able to bring them back to the USA and sell them for prices that might actually make people want to buy them again.
And maybe SEVEN - brings back AMF and makes pedal powered bikes again. |
Trojan
| | Posted on Thursday, October 22, 2009 - 02:11 pm: |
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THREE - I have no clue why they would want to purchase MV/Agusta, but they did. If it was to mass market the machine, well a quick check on Discovery Channel would have told you that was impossible. 1 designer who can't be rushed. Engine builders that can take as long as they feel they need to build a motor. Etc. etc. etc. So that's a positive loss in the making
Buying MV Agusta could have been a brilliant move. IF they had managed to secure the services of Massimo Tamburini, and IF they could have waited to reap the rewards of their investment over the past year. However, Tamburini slipped the net and now their knee jerk reaction to sell sell sell sell at any cost probably won't recoup the investment that they have put into MV over the last 12 months.
MV is set to release new Brutale models and the new 675 triple, in addition to a redesigned F4 in the next few months. Their future seems far more rosy than Buell or even H-D at the moment (providing they can be financed of course). H-D should have hung in there for the long haul but have panicked into selling without it seems any coherent thought or policy. |
Rambuell
| | Posted on Thursday, October 22, 2009 - 05:16 pm: |
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MV/Agusta could have offered them a readymade location in Europe to manufacture bikes. It would be much easier for many to stomach a European built HD, than a Russian or Asian built bike. But with the money hemorrhaging in the USA, anything to show the bankers that they could possibly reduce it was sacrificed. I keep seeing on the blogs that Buell was making money, but the latest HD statement does not show or justify that assumption. IMO, HD marketing screwed the pooch; failure to get the word out and convince the sport biker that Buell was a realistic alternative. Then the potential customer walked in the local HD/Buell shop and they realized what a bastard step child Buell was considered by the sales, parts, and service staff.
As the management at HD changes from the 1980’s buyout group to outside non-HD inbreds, I can only see the company going back to the AMF days. Companies that are run by engineers who understand what they are building and want to make a product that their customers will buy, are losing out to bean counters that are serving the fiduciary duties of their stockholders. Erik was one of those. Just IMHO. |
Transmaniacon_mc
| | Posted on Thursday, October 22, 2009 - 11:05 pm: |
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Look at H-D Corp. and their 3Q numbers they are bleeding money like GM and Chrysler were before going bankrupt as Harley is going broke. Harley-Davidson is just trying to save there own ass from being closed by creditors. They also need to rework there union labor contracts so closing plants and moving things around makes workers nervous about just keeping jobs. Next thing you know H-D will need bale out money. H-D is in a panic acting the way the board of directors did just closing Buell and wanting to quick sell MV. Sales have dropped 24% for H-D but over 80% loss in cash money. $115 million in bad loans from HD financing. 240 million dollar write off for closing down Buell manufacturing which seems like a lot of money. Does anyone think Buell is worth anywhere near 240 million? |
California
| | Posted on Friday, October 23, 2009 - 02:15 pm: |
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Don't panic.. I think I see the strategy in all this...
ONE - The 'modern' business exec type can only 'see' 3 months ahead. The 'real leaders' look all the way to 5 years.. Erik only looked out 200 years, they couldn't understand it..
Here's a little quote to go with this sort of thinking.....
"management is doing things right, leadership is doing the right thing" |
Goldrush
| | Posted on Saturday, October 24, 2009 - 01:53 am: |
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Here is an idea from Steven Covey: Management in a logging company would be sharpening the saws, dealing with h&r issues, payroll; Leadership on the other hand would climb the tallest tree in the forest and realize they are in the wrong forest! |
Want_a_buell
| | Posted on Sunday, October 25, 2009 - 02:17 am: |
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Does anyone on here think that HD saying they won't sell the Buell brand, is a bunch of B.S.. Here's my point. I think HD knows they have a winning product in Buell, and thus holding onto the company to help peak interest in selling it. Allowing them to sell the company, not for the 123 million they say it is worth, but for more. I think they're waiting for a very good bid. Then they will sell. |
Trevharding
| | Posted on Sunday, October 25, 2009 - 09:12 am: |
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I think "want_a_buell" is right on the money here. HD is all about the $$$, Buell is all about the rider. Someone buy it and make more riders happy please. |
Jetjock
| | Posted on Sunday, October 25, 2009 - 11:16 am: |
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For what it's worth: my local HD/Buell Sales Mgr just returned from a trip to HD HQ & came back with the impression that the Buell shutdown may not be permanent. Said from what he heard them say he thought they might sell off the surplus bikes, wait a couple years & reopen? Everyone in our dealership thinks they will have good parts & service for years to come (maybe as good as it is now; but, that hasn't been so great in my experience) & other Buell dealers will also. In the meantime they are uncrating all their previously stored Buells & planning to sell them as fast as they can. |
46champ
| | Posted on Sunday, October 25, 2009 - 11:43 am: |
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With the Buell sales this month HD can go to the suits on wall street and tell them how much they have increased market share in the sport bike market. I wonder how much the Japanese and European dealers sales are down in the last 2 weeks? |
Sparky
| | Posted on Sunday, October 25, 2009 - 12:11 pm: |
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H-D re-opening the Buell brand may be a possibility down the road and I sure hope that happens. But H-D would have to change the way they market the bikes.
It's been said that H-D sells every Buell motorcycle that's been made, but they distribute and sell them to the dealers in the dealer network.
The problem all along with Buells not selling has entirely been the fault of the dealer network that H-D assumes will work to sell sport bikes. Well, it doesn't work.
IMHO H-D would need a core of dedicated, enthusiastic Buell "Elves-type" dealers to sell and service the brand. Granted there are some very good H-D/B dealers out there are doing all the right things and making it work. All we need is more of them. I believe that's what has been missing and is what H-D would need to improve upon if they were to re-up Buell Motorcycle Company and start turning profits. |
Buell2001b
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 27, 2009 - 01:24 pm: |
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I have talked with HD mechanics and they hate buells. "Buells are too comlicated""They are not easy to fix like HD"
you see the pattern. This is the metality of redneck education. Its too hard Ican't fix it. |
Rightpecial
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 27, 2009 - 02:52 pm: |
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How in the hell are they hard to work on. A whole lot of us on this site work on our own Buells and we don't have the benefit of an education in motorcycle repair. I don't know much about the 1125, but the XB, blasts, and tubers are dirt freakin' simple. |
Mmmi_grad
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 27, 2009 - 06:06 pm: |
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If someone said they are hard its because they are too old and set in thier ways. Most of you boys dont know jack about whats its like to work at a dealer under the clock. You have to get things done in the amount of time you are given, if you run into snags, •••• soomething up, somethings breaks for no good reason, i dont have the part because our dealer isnt a Buell warehouse, Customer changed their mind, or some physical reason. Wrenching on bikes is not some easy or fantasy gravey job. Guys gota put up with dum customers and smart ass customers.
What we have here is a bunch of mechanics dealing with a sort of problem that....uh this is a ford and you just brought to a gm dealer. There is alot of this and that, and oh this is different. You see its not that the actuall work is hard, its dealing with all the out of "syncrosees" of switching back and forth from one make to another. I totally understand it to, just like I dont work on FORDS. However, I dont have a problem wreching on jap bikes either.
So Ill agree with the service guys that it is a challenge to switch back and forth with the brands, tools and ways to do things. Its doable but we ALL only do whats worth it to us right? Pay me $60 k and Ill work on HD and Buells 5 days a week. |
Toecutter
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 28, 2009 - 12:57 pm: |
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I used to do all my own wrenching on my Kawasaki. Now I have a Buell, and it's so different, what with all the fancy T-27 fasteners, and the requirement for imperial tools. It is still "lefty loosey, righty tighty" isn't it??? I give up... this is way too freakin' hard for me! - LOL
These service technicians are a bunch of crybabies! What about the guys that service Ducati, Aprilia, and Suziki in the same dealership? How about the ones that service Kawasaki, Honda, and Victory? IDK... maybe they are just better mechanics than the guys in the H-D shop.
(Message edited by Toecutter on October 28, 2009) |
Redneckbuellboy
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 28, 2009 - 05:24 pm: |
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I have a 1125r and a service man. that tells me how to fix whats wrong with it. I use to go to the dealership that i bought it from but they always gave me a hard time about fixing it. How ever i have found a dealership that is more about BUELLS then HD and most of the people have a Buell there. The place is called Fletcher's Harley, and i travel 46 miles to get there one way but it is worth it.
HD needs to do the right thing and give it back to E. Buell and let him run his own comp. and own dealerships with all the parts that he needs. |
Ferris_von_bueller
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 28, 2009 - 07:56 pm: |
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I think Harley dealers would scream, and rightly so, if none Harley dealers had access to Harley parts,
I can go down to my local Yamaha/Honda/etc dealer and get my Buell completely serviced. In fact, they have a tech that used to wrok up the road at the HD dealership.
For what it's worth: my local HD/Buell Sales Mgr just returned from a trip to HD HQ & came back with the impression that the Buell shutdown may not be permanent
Odd, I heard the same thing. Perhaps, there is a ring of truth to it, although it wouldn't be the same Buell, would it? I mean, wouldn't EB and the elves have long since moved on by then? |
Cyclone00
| | Posted on Thursday, October 29, 2009 - 10:27 pm: |
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If you own a sell a product. Then your service people should be trained on how to fix them. Whats wrong with this picture???
Frankly I don't give a rats behind on if the tech guy does'nt want to work on it. I work in a service department. If I complained about working on one of OUR products then it would'nt look good for me. If you cant fix it then you havent been trained, or you lack the intelligence.
My Dad runs a garage and works on every type of car on the road. Fords, Chevy's, Lexus, Honda's, BMW's, Mercades... exc. exc.
You mean to tell me a Harley Mechanic cant repair two brand's of bikes??? Gimmie a break. |
Mmmi_grad
| | Posted on Thursday, October 29, 2009 - 10:37 pm: |
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Its simply not desirable to switch back and forth on methods, part numbers, means and ways, paperwork, customers, noises, etc etc. Its for sure doable and this is where the guys in the service dept really deserve more support, training and $$$$$ to pull it off. I have seen people quit for alot LESS than having to put alot more effort in their job to learn the Buell ways. Just ask them and dont mention anything Buell.} |
Toecutter
| | Posted on Friday, October 30, 2009 - 01:24 pm: |
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So the service techs at my local Kawazukiyamonda dealerships make more money that the H-D techs? |
Rbbiggs
| | Posted on Sunday, November 01, 2009 - 03:34 pm: |
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""""MV/Agusta could have offered them a readymade location in Europe to manufacture bikes. It would be much easier for many to stomach a European built HD, than a Russian or Asian built bike. But with the money hemorrhaging in the USA, anything to show the bankers that they could possibly reduce it was sacrificed."""""
A ready made location in Europe may not be too far off, but not what you think. HD's are fairly popular in Europe especially Germany. Importing used HD's was a big business prior to the recession, since they are not taxed like new product is. Exporting New Bikes is the problem. With protectionist import taxes in the EU, HD's are WAY too expensive. MV may have provided MOCO with a way around the tax issue. |
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