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Gregtonn
| | Posted on Saturday, October 10, 2009 - 01:18 am: | 
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Question:
Did Cathcart throw it away on a left or right hand corner?
I'm working on a theory.
Seriously.
G |
Sparky
| | Posted on Saturday, October 10, 2009 - 02:16 am: |
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Well, if he ran it out to the curbing coming onto the front straight at Barber, I believe that would be a left hander.
Is the theory about the rider, the bike or the track? |
Vagelis46
| | Posted on Saturday, October 10, 2009 - 03:26 am: |
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"Busted .
Yes it is. You're just not smart enough to see why."
It seems that you have no clue about motorcycles, and you are being very rude and arrogant. Is this a way to make you feel better??
M1combat, it seems that you have never ridden a modern big V-2 and a 600IL4 to understand the difference. The difference in traction of the slow revving V-2 against the high revving IL4 and the instant thrust, makes a huge difference regardless of the state of tune.
But on the internet, anyone that has not the slightest idea, could claim that is as smart about racing motorcycles as Jeremy Burgess, or has the abilities of Ben Spies.
Racing the 1125R against highly tuned 600IL4, might be fair, I don't care. But it certainly is not the way to tell the motorcycle world that "Buell has built a great sportbike". It makes the motorcycle world say "Buell needs an extra 600cc to be competitive". Be smart enough to understand it.
"Why would you demand Buell, a company of 200 people, be forced to adopt those same idiotic (my view) standards for their street bikes. It would harm them significantly."
OK. Bimota, a smaller company with less resources, chose moto2 to make a point for their chassis design. They did not choose to race their DB7 with the 1098 motor agaist 600cc IL4.
http://www.bimota.it/db7.html |
Ducbsa
| | Posted on Saturday, October 10, 2009 - 05:58 am: |
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Were you racing BOTT at Daytona in 1983?
No, not exactly, I was volunteer pit crew for another Brit in a group Cathcart had organized from the UK. Ha-ha, maybe the next year, I entered my street BMW, just for garage access as a fan. Man, that was expensive, with the mandatory AMA insurance. However, in the signup line for one hour plus, I was just behind Don Vesco and had a great time talking to him. |
Blake
| | Posted on Saturday, October 10, 2009 - 10:36 am: |
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"Racing the 1125R against highly tuned 600IL4, might be fair, I don't care."
You've expend a lot of effort arguing to the contrary for someone who doesn't care.
"But it certainly is not the way to tell the motorcycle world that "Buell has built a great sportbike". It makes the motorcycle world say "Buell needs an extra 600cc to be competitive". Be smart enough to understand it."
Like was already explained, the Japanese 600cc repli-racers are as close to street legal MotoGP machines that exist. They are absolutely incredible racing machines, developed and optimized over decades for the best possible performance on a race track. Beating them with a first of its kind bike designed for the street in a head-to-head racing series is a HUGE accomplishment. Be smart enough to understand that. Instead of sinking to the lowest common denominator of ignorance, spread the truth and be proud of a truly significant achievement by one of your favorite motorcycle companies.
You don't just throw a big engine into a chassis and win races.
Buell and all Buell enthusiasts should be incredibly proud of this David (Buell) slays Goliath (Japan Inc) success story.
Congratulations to Buell Racing and to everyone at Buell Motorcycle Company! |
Blake
| | Posted on Saturday, October 10, 2009 - 10:47 am: |
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"It makes the motorcycle world say 'Buell needs an extra 600cc to be competitive'."
Again, only the ignorant share that idiotic view.
The knowledgeable folks understand very well that the Japanese approach of losing money building 600cc racing machines and making them legal for the street is their strategy to dominate racing to the exclusion of all other forms of sport bike.
Not any more. American motorcycle racing, thanks to DMG, has shed its ignorance and is bringing true street bike racing back to the AMA. |
4cammer
| | Posted on Saturday, October 10, 2009 - 10:49 am: |
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"OK. Bimota"
Thanks for the link, have not looked at those bikes for a while. When did Bimota adopt the "let's make it look as much like a preying mantis as possible" styling? Ick. |
Diablo1
| | Posted on Saturday, October 10, 2009 - 12:10 pm: |
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The knowledgeable folks understand very well that the Japanese approach of losing money building 600cc racing machines and making them legal for the street is their strategy to dominate racing to the exclusion of all other forms of sport bike.
How would you or anyone else know how much the Japanese are losing or making on a specific model? Do you know how much Buell is losing or making on the 1125? This is not public information. No one can verify or disprove your claim, other than top management. They'd get their ass fired for making this information public. } |
Vagelis46
| | Posted on Saturday, October 10, 2009 - 01:36 pm: |
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"The knowledgeable folks understand very well that the Japanese approach of losing money building 600cc racing machines and making them legal for the street is their strategy to dominate racing to the exclusion of all other forms of sport bike."
So there is a Japanese conspiracy. This is truly idiotic.
I cannot see how Yamaha-Honda-Suzuki-Kawa are loosing money from selling thousands of 600cc IL4s all over the world. |
Elvis
| | Posted on Saturday, October 10, 2009 - 04:20 pm: |
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Why is it that every time someone starts a thread about the 1125RR . . . Buell's SUPERBIKE . . . we get mired in a discussion of Sportbike?
The whole point of this thread is that Cathcart got injured on Buell's new Superbike, which, by the way, he said performed right up there with other Superbikes.
Buell isn't twiddling their thumbs. They're not sitting back and saying "well that Sportbike championship was pretty sweet, now let's just sit back and collect the money".
They're at the track refining their Superbike.
That's pretty exciting. Buell is clearly moving ahead. Why are we still discussing the same tired topics over and over again?
Cathcart suggested that he thought teams might be riding the 1125RR in IDM next year. That's big news . . . isn't it?
Why does a bombshell like that pass without a comment while the same Sportbike comments are restated over and over again. Is Sportbike really that fascinating?
I have to admit that after waiting 25 years to see Buell on TV contesting a major class, 2009 Sportbike was a lot of fun, but it seems the topic of the moment is the 1125RR |
Imonabuss
| | Posted on Saturday, October 10, 2009 - 05:08 pm: |
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The only conspiracy is the Japanese banding together to claim the bikes they are racing are stock. That is so ridiculous and untrue, and could be challenged in a heartbeat by any journalist who wanted to take them on. Hell superimposed photographs would start the job. But what would be in it for the journalist? No magazine would hire him or her for fear of losing advertising, and the motorcycling public who have been buying this stuff hook line and sinker for years wouldn't listen anyhow. |
Diablo1
| | Posted on Saturday, October 10, 2009 - 06:22 pm: |
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The only conspiracy is the Japanese banding together to claim the bikes they are racing are stock.
Go ahead and prove it. Show one link where any of the manufacturers claim they are racing stock bikes in DSB. Everyone is racing stock bikes that are modified within the class rules. It's DMG's job to have teardowns to keep everyone honest.} |
Blake
| | Posted on Saturday, October 10, 2009 - 08:35 pm: |
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"How would you or anyone else know how much the Japanese are losing or making on a specific model?"
You no read good. I don't know how much they are losing, only that the 600cc repli-racers are money losers for the factories. They themselves have have made the information public. |
Blake
| | Posted on Saturday, October 10, 2009 - 08:39 pm: |
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The names of the series in which they race include "Superstock" and "Supersport", and yes "Daytona SportBike", all of which require the use of stock motorcycles that are allowed a specified limited amount of modification.
Someday maybe John Ulrich will be able to set the record straight on the issue. He's one man that certainly knows the situation and who when he does talk, does so with credibility. |
Blake
| | Posted on Saturday, October 10, 2009 - 08:42 pm: |
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Why is it that every time someone starts a thread about the 1125RR . . . Buell's SUPERBIKE . . . we get mired in a discussion of Sportbike?
The whole point of this thread is that Cathcart got injured on Buell's new Superbike, which, by the way, he said performed right up there with other Superbikes.
Buell isn't twiddling their thumbs. They're not sitting back and saying "well that Sportbike championship was pretty sweet, now let's just sit back and collect the money".
They're at the track refining their Superbike.
That's pretty exciting. Buell is clearly moving ahead. Why are we still discussing the same tired topics over and over again?
Cathcart suggested that he thought teams might be riding the 1125RR in IDM next year. That's big news . . . isn't it?
Why does a bombshell like that pass without a comment while the same Sportbike comments are restated over and over again. Is Sportbike really that fascinating?
I have to admit that after waiting 25 years to see Buell on TV contesting a major class, 2009 Sportbike was a lot of fun, but it seems the topic of the moment is the 1125RR
Here, here! Thank you Elvis!  |
Backcountryme
| | Posted on Saturday, October 10, 2009 - 08:59 pm: |
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+1 Elvis. I couldn't agree more. |
Jimidan
| | Posted on Sunday, October 11, 2009 - 11:45 am: |
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In the November 2009 Cycle World, Kevin Cameron (who I used to respect for his vast knowledge) stated in his "Roundup" article entitled "War of the Words" that DMG's Superbike Series efforts to put "more bikes on the podium than just Japan's big four plus Ducati" has resulted in DMG doling out "favors" to the smaller companies, like Buell. He then poses the question: "That leaves us with this question: Are racing rules like laws, applying equally to everyone? Or are they just a way for those making the rules to get what they want, adding 'interpretations' as they go? The appearance of unfairness hurts and offends just as much as deliberate unfairness itself."
The initial implication that I derived from reading this was that Cameron doesn't understand the DMG ruling that allows for the 1125RR in the Superbike class...but because of his technical background, I am sure that he does. So armed with that reality, WTF is he talking about? What is really important here? The appearance of unfairness by those who are ignorant and lack the basic understanding of what makes a competitive series? Or those who DO understand and implement them in a series to create the ultimate proof of fairness...that would be a series that would rival the Daytona Sportbike Series that was the most competitive series in motorcycle racing's recent history?
Or is Cameron perpetuating the myths and politics of the "offended parties" (Big 4) as perceived by the uninitiated and ignorant masses? Is he doing so for his own personal gain, or some other agenda? Funny, but I always thought of him as being more objective than that.
(Message edited by jimidan on October 11, 2009) |
Sparky
| | Posted on Sunday, October 11, 2009 - 12:43 pm: |
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Don't forget, Cycle World exists because of it gets paid big bucks from advertisers such as the big 4 from Japan, et al, unlike certain other magazines such as Motorcycle Consumer News which does not have paid advertisers and thus can be totally objective in what they publish without fear of reprisal from Japan's big 4. I'm sure Japan Inc. pays more for advertising than BMC.
Who knows, Cameron may well have been "persuaded" {arm-twisted, threatened with furlough,etc.} to write a piece favorable to Japan Inc's agenda regarding DMG's tactics, IMHO. |
Blake
| | Posted on Sunday, October 11, 2009 - 01:08 pm: |
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I still have a lot of respect for Kevin Cameron. I'd not read too much into his personal views. Until he comes out and actually writes about specific issues and names names, it's all just talk. The question he asks is a fair one that deserves more discussion.
I may write a letter.  |
Imonabuss
| | Posted on Sunday, October 11, 2009 - 01:56 pm: |
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Maybe Kevin Cameron isn't the man he used to be. He is getting older and may have lost the fire to take on BS, especially with a mostly uneducated audience. He could have explained to the average rider what a formula class means, and educated them as to the fact it isn't unfair. He could have explained in layman's terms what running a heavier bike with high torque and a high inertia crank on tires designed for low torque 600's means. He could have said, what do you mean, small companies, Aprilia is quite large, as are other companies invited to run in the class with larger displacenets (BMW and KTM for example). But he didn't, and that makes me sad. |
Doerman
| | Posted on Sunday, October 11, 2009 - 02:19 pm: |
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The 2009 season was banner year for AMA racing.
The landscape totally changed from what we had come to expect from AMA in years past.
Some people "get it" and appreciate the change.
Other people look at the change and can only say WTF. The easiest time to criticize is when things are new and in flux. Also keep in mind that journos are paid skeptics. I do not know what motive Mr. Cameron might have had; if indeed there is an ulterior motive behind his article at all. He strikes me as writing what he thinks and not what others thinks he should write.
We here on BadWeB know that discussion between Buell and AMA/DMG lead to a decision to create the RR rather than go through and homologoise a bucketfull of parts. It makes sense in terms of creating a race ready superbike and make it available to any team that wants to field it.
I believe that detail is lost on a lot of people, including journos. That detail was not lost on Suzuki, who verbally accepted doing the same thing. I do not know if they have followed through or not.
Be that as it may. These articles do get under our skin. Keep in mind, there is a next year! With the 2009 DSB championship in RMS/Slick/Buells hands and promising developments regarding the RR, the 2010 season is already exciting. Once wheels start turning in March in Daytona, these writings will be long forgotten. |
Reepicheep
| | Posted on Sunday, October 11, 2009 - 02:57 pm: |
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Cameron (who I like) is invested in the Japan, Inc, inline four / hp per displacement means everything design philosophy. He was (if I recall) a tuner for an inline four Japanese bike at the professional racing level.
The inline fours are an amazing achievement of durability and power, there is lots to respect there.
Change is hard, there will be some good people unhappy. |
Gregtonn
| | Posted on Sunday, October 11, 2009 - 07:37 pm: |
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"Turn, hell-hound, turn!"_MacDuff in Macbeth...or possibly Alan Cathcart at Barber. |
Gaesati
| | Posted on Sunday, October 11, 2009 - 08:44 pm: |
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"Oh dear, this is going to hurt" Gaesati in Turn one at Easterm Creek or possibly Cathcart... |
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