| Author | Message | ||
     Vagelis46 |
The factory Yamaha team have stated officialy that Rossi gets the new parts a few weeks earlier than Lorenzo. Rossi "armchair racing" fans say that Rossi and Lorenzo get the new parts at the same time. Who should we actually believe ?? Lorenzo clearly is very carefull with his interviews so that he does not get Yamaha against him. He has to play by Yamaha rules, otherwise he gets the Honda - Biaggi syndrom. Honda seems to keep Pedrosa and Dovi so he has to be very - very careful. I guess it was his mistake to ask 6 mil Euros from Honda. He should have asked something more reasonable. He would have got #1 status in HRC in 2 races. Now he seems to have lost the Honda option, and the Ducati option is much more difficult. Just ask Hayden...... Lets hope the rumours that Stoner is actually OK are true but he wants to leave Ducati. Lets hope he finds a way to join HRC along with Ben Spies.........Then we will see who is the faster rider in the 2010 season. I am afraid that if Lorenzo stays in Yamaha and Stoner gets well and stays in Ducati, the 2010 season will be Rossi's once again. | ||
| Jaimec |
Vagelis, ROSSI himself stated that the new engines (modified to meet the requirement that just five engines have to last the final 7 races) is "softer" than what he had previously. Lorenzo wasn't the only rider to complain. Part of recovery is admitting you have a problem. Your pathological hatred of Valentino Rossi has been quite obvious over the past two years of your posting here. Valentino wins because he's the best damned racer on the grid and that's the ONLY reason. He gets the parts from the factory first because he is Yamaha's development rider. Lorenzo gets the parts after they've been proven to work. It's that simple. Remember in 2006 when Nicky won the championship? His bike was VERY different from the bikes the other Honda riders had because it was the "development bike." He had TONS of problems (specifically in the clutch/transmission) that none of the other riders had. He won by being consistent, not because he had the better equipment. Fact is, he might've done better if he had the same bike Pedrosa had that year. Having the cutting edge isn't always an advantage, because you're also the first one to experience the problems. | ||
| Trojan |
Lets hope he finds a way to join HRC along with Ben Spies.........Then we will see who is the faster rider in the 2010 season Do you think that HRC can make a bike to beat the Yamaha next year? HRC not only signed Pedrosa/Dovi this weekend, but made a special mention that they WOULD NOT sign Lorenzo. I think that is pretty final. Stoner rode a Honda in his first year in MotoGP. If I remember correctly he crashed a lot  I am afraid that if Lorenzo stays in Yamaha and Stoner gets well and stays in Ducati, the 2010 season will be Rossi's once again. Funny how Rossi is capable of winning on pretty much any bike, but his team mate is somehow always at a disadvantage? When he left Honda the Yamaha was a long way behind in terms of speed and development, but he won on it first time out. 2010 will be Rossi's year unless somebody else improves their riding enough to beat him, simple. No conspiracy theory, no special orders, just talent. Lorenzo knows that he has the best bike in the paddock at Yamaha, and he will stay there. There ar eno HRC places left on the grid for next year now that LCR and Repsol have signed their riders, so where would he go anyway. As for signing at Ducati, that won't happen if he has any sense at all. I have serious doubts that we will see Stoner back in MotoGP this year or next year, whether on a Ducati or any other manufacturer machine. I don't know where you ave read that Lorenzo gets updates after Rossi. I read pretty much everything regarding MotoGP and have never heard anything similar about the Yamaha factory team. If anything they always stress exactly the opposite to be true. Both riders get exactly the same treatment and parts, and both have access to data. The only thing they don't share are garage space and crew. | ||
| Jaimec |
The only Yamaha riders who DON'T get the factory updates immediately are Edwards and Toseland. | ||
| Trojan |
The only Yamaha riders who DON'T get the factory updates immediately are Edwards and Toseland. Agreed. Which is why it made no sense for Tech 3 to be at the tests today in Brno...nothing to test and neither rider will be there next year  (or will they....?) | ||
| Vagelis46 |
Jaimec, stop throwing helenic(greek) words at me. "Pathological" is a very strong word, and it more or less means illness in english. There is no reason for me to hate Rossi, and I am not ill in any way about that. He is a very good rider, probably the best ever. But he is well supported by the motoGP "system" that has a big profit when he wins. Everybody from Dorna, the media, the t-shirt sellers, seems to benefit from Rossi's success, so they will support anything that keeps him winning and them making money. What happened in '06 ?? He got beaten by a consistent rider (Hayden), that the "system" said that he got lucky, and almost everybody hated because he did not deserved it. What happened in '07 ?? He got beaten by a young extremely fast rider, but the "system" said that he got "too many" electronics and "better" tires. Stoner is also hated by 99% of the people that watch motoGP. What happened in '08 ? Rossi got the title and the "system" said that he did so because he is the "best" rider there ever was and ever be and he will win on any bike and under any circumstance, which is total rubbish. There was no mention for the agility and braking performance of the Yamaha, its improved power electronics, Burgess' setup mastermind, or Fusosawa's "special"-"long bang"-"reverse rotation" crankshaft. Everything was perfect since Rossi won, right ?? Now in '09 ?? Only his teammate can challenge him. What make you think that the "system" will not push for an extra "edge" for Rossi, now that his main rival is in the same team ? The good news for the "system" is that Rossi is now extra happy since he is well above the opposition and he is thinking about racing until 2013 !!!! Whow think about all the money that the "system" will make !! People that watch motoGP are also happy so they will keep watching, the media will make money from ads, and millios #46 t-shirts, flags and caps will be sold !! Life for motoGP is Great !! But not for hardcore racing fans......People that want to see "real" battles and racers reaching the limit of their machines. If someone cannot see that Rossi's bike was faster in Sanchesring and in Brno should see an optician, which Jaimec my friend is another helenic word for you. | ||
| Blake |
Blah, blah, blah... you're making stuff up. Lorenzo ruefully commented, “I got a bad start and had to get by some people, and then I just didn’t have the same pace that I’d had all weekend. I was slower than in the practices and it really wasn’t what I was expecting. Unfortunately for me Valentino was just as strong as he’d been all weekend and I had to push very, very hard to stay with him. Towards the end I began to close the gap and after I passed him I was doing everything to stay in front, but then I made a mistake and crashed.” | ||
| Jaimec |
Hmmmmm... I saw Jorge Lorenzo catch up and pass Rossi. Nothing wrong with my eyes there. Now, how would that be possible if his bike was slower? He and Rossi were also trading "fastest laps" all around. In fact, it was only when Jorge overcooked the corner and crashed that Rossi's win became a foregone conclusion. Even Rossi says it's stupid to count Jorge out even now. "Pathological" appears to fit. | ||
| Blake |
It's funny that some people see one racer and machine performing better on the racetrack and immediately leap to the conclusion that the bike must have some unfair advantage. I wonder why they don't consider that maybe that bike was setup with a better final drive ratio. I wonder why they don't consider that maybe that bike had its fuel mapping more optimally tuned for the race conditions. I wonder why they don't consider that maybe the racer is simply more skilled and getting better drive out of the turns. I wonder why they don't consider that maybe one racer might benefit from a longer more aerodynamic torso versus another who is shorter and stockier. I wonder why some racing fans are so damn ignorant about racing. For all we know one team may use a different rev limit, different mapping, different gearing, and even different tires. But for the armchair race critic it always comes down to THAT RACER I DON'T LIKE IS FASTER, SO HIS ENGINE MUST BE UNFAIR! Valentino Rossi has nothing to prove to anyone. The man is by far the best, most skilled, smartest motorcycle racer on the planet. This is not debatable by sane men. | ||
| Jaimec |
Interesting. The circuit record was broken yesterday by a Yamaha rider... but it WASN'T Valentino Rossi. The circuit record lap was set by Jorge Lorenzo. Slower motorcycle indeed. | ||
| Smoke |
this is similar to the argument a few weeks ago about DSB concerning how the I4 rider crashed because he had to ride so much harder due to the Buell having an unfair power advantage. Valentino Rossi is the most skilled motorcycle racer in MotoGp at this time. who is the next one that can challenge for this title? we will have to wait to see. tim | ||
| 46champ |
Vagelis I might not completely agree with your conclusion but I would have to agree with your reasoning to get their. If a person were to just follow the money what you say is true. The vendors and everyone else makes a ton of money when Rossi wins but I'm not sure a conspiracy can be deducted from it... yet. | ||
| Blake |
"The vendors and everyone else makes a ton of money when Rossi wins" You'll have to explain how that is supposed to work. More money from T-Shirts? Sorry, I'm not buying that. Can you imagine the class five shit storm that would ensue if ANYONE leaked that such a fix was in. Rossi's reputation would be obliterated along with the entire sport. The whole idea is preposterous, ludicrous, unfathomable, beyond the pale, out in left field, outlandish, for the tin foil crowd. Wait, is Bush behind it? | ||
| Diablobrian |
Doh! | ||
| Trojan |
Stoner is also hated by 99% of the people that watch motoGP. The person responsible for that is Casey Stoner. If he refuses to sign autographs, is rude to fans and fellow competitors and then makes every excuse under the sun when he gets beaten (except to say he was beaten fair and square) then he will never be popular. If and when he comes back maybe he will have learned a little humility and realise that the fans ultimately pay his wages and be a litle more forthcoming with them. Until then, I am one fo the 99% (although I prefer to say 'dislike' rather than 'hate') As for the stuff about T shirt sales. That is just rubbish. The people who make money from T shirt sales would just print Dovi/Lorenzo/Pedrosa shirts if they were winning exactly the same as they did before Rossi arrived (I still wear my Barry Sheene T shirt ). Do you really think that the MotoGP accessory/clothing market will collapse when Vale retires? One thing that Valentino has done is to bring motorcycle racing to a huge new audience that would never have considered watching bike racing in the past. Not just by winning, but by being a BIG personality that the media loves. He is one of the bigest sporting characters worldwide now and recognisable by people who have no interest in motocycling at all. If Rossi wasn't there do you think there would be the same attention given to any of the other riders? This means that, even though he costs MotoGP a lot of money, he is also responsible for bringing a huge amount of money into the sport from TV companies, sponsors and paying fans. MotoGP will be a much poorer place (both financially and in every other sense) when Rossi eventually retires, and it is hard to see who will take his place as an ambassador for the sport at the moment. | ||
| Trojan |
From crash.net today: It seems to have been a case of one door closing and another opening for Jorge Lorenzo during the Czech Republic Grand Prix weekend, when HRC announced that it would not sign the talented young Spaniard - but a new avenue of interest opened at Ducati. Rumours of Lorenzo switching from Fiat Yamaha - with whom he made his MotoGP debut in 2008 and has taken three wins, 14 podiums and eight poles - to Repsol Honda next season have circulated since round two in Japan. It is hard to establish exactly how serious Lorenzo had considered an RCV move, but the comments by HRC president Tetsuo Suzuki at Brno seemed to end any chance of it happening in 2010. “We spoke with Lorenzo, but we eventually concluded that Dani Pedrosa and Andrea Dovizioso would be the best line-up for us and there are no plans to provide another bike to Lorenzo," said Suzuki. Perhaps Suzuki came to the conclusion, as had many in the paddock, that Lorenzo was now using Honda as a negotiating tool to reach a better arrangement with Yamaha. Lorenzo has openly stated that the YZR-M1 is the best bike in MotoGP and that he is happy with his team, but appears to want more financial equality with team-mate and reigning six time MotoGP world champion Valentino Rossi. According to Spanish sportspaper AS and Riders magazine, Rossi earns 14 million euros from Yamaha, compared with 2 million for Lorenzo. The new offer on the table from Yamaha is reportedly for 4 million. Honda's public withdraw from negotiations with Lorenzo looked like bringing the uncertainty over the double 250cc world champion's MotoGP future to an end, with a new Yamaha contract looking like a formality. However, Casey Stoner's withdraw from the next three rounds, and uncertainty over the Australian's MotoGP future as he battles a mystery energy-sapping illness, has prompted late interest in Lorenzo from Ducati. Heavily dependent on Stoner for its MotoGP success - the top Ducati after Stoner is only 14th in the world championship - the Marlboro backed team is said to be prepared to offer Lorenzo between 6.5 and 8 million euros a year, for a two-year contract. To put that in perspective, Stoner's wage is reported as 3.8 million a year. Lorenzo would be mad to move to Ducati just for the money, and it would be an incredibly risky move for him (although I think he would make a more competitive rider on the Duc than either Stoner or Hayden). If Ducati are willing to offer that kind of money who would be replaced, Stoner or hayden? (Or both maybe?) | ||
| Vagelis46 |
"I wonder why some racing fans are so damn ignorant about racing. For all we know one team may use a different rev limit, different mapping, different gearing, and even different tires" Rossi and Lorenzo are on the same factory Yamaha team. So their bikes have the same rev limiter ( lets hope) and the same control Bridgestone tires. If someone do not know this is 100% ignorant about motoGP. "Can you imagine the class five shit storm that would ensue if ANYONE leaked that such a fix was in. Rossi's reputation would be obliterated along with the entire sport. " There is no fix, just the FIAT yamaha team decides to give its #1 rider a little bit of extra hp. I can accept that. What I cannot accept is that everyone is too "I love Rossi" blind to accept it. I think Lorenzo has less to loose by joining Ducati than staying with Yamaha at the moment. If he stays Yamaha and get beaten by Rossi this and next year (which for me it is a 100% thing for engine-Burgess-electronics-chassis advantage that Rossi will always have) his confidence will be finished and he will end up as the next Sete Gibernau. If Lorenzo joins Ducati and fails to beat Rossi, it could be the Ducati problem. If he beats Stoner then he is a hero. If he fails to beat Stoner then he could move to another team. It seems from the last motoGP events, that Suzuki have benefited mostly by the new "endurance" engine rule. So far "not enough" power was the main problem for Suzuki. Now that everybody else have detuned their engines, Capirex could stay with tech3 M1s and Hondas on the race and was 4th on Monday test. I wonder what Stoner and Lorenzo could have done with that bike. It seems that Suzuki had not a super tuned engine, maybe to keep their costs down. Maybe Suzuki is not a bad option for 2010, after all. Maybe Bautista made a good choise, since there will not be the same expectations as for Simoncelli. If Suzuki keeps Loris then there is another seat gone for Ben Spies. | ||
| Jaimec |
I suppose then Ducati gives more horsepower to Casey over Nicky? That would explain why Nicky isn't competitive. I'm sure that Spanish-owned Repsol gives Dani more horsepower than Italian Andrea Dovisioso, too! Frenchmen Poncharal has a deep-seated hatred of the English, so naturally he makes sure Colin's bike is more powerful than Toseland's... Hey, this explains a lot! It's got NOTHING to do with the rider! It's because the TEAMS are sabotaging the careers of half of their riders! BRILLIANT! Let's alert the media! (Message edited by Jaimec on August 18, 2009) | ||
| Trojan |
I think Lorenzo has less to loose by joining Ducati than staying with Yamaha at the moment. If he stays Yamaha and get beaten by Rossi this and next year (which for me it is a 100% thing for engine-Burgess-electronics-chassis advantage that Rossi will always have) his confidence will be finished and he will end up as the next Sete Gibernau. Hmmm, Lorenzo just said that he can't believe how many new parts he has already receieved this season from yamaha. He was fastest in practice on Friday and Saturday (except qualifying) and fastest in the race on Sunday before tripping himself up. On Monday he was half a second faster than Rossi, yet you still think he is under a disadvantage? It is not in Fiat Yamaha's interest to have Lorenzo slower or on inferior equipment to Rossi, simply because they want to win the manufacturers and team championship in addition to the riders championship. In fact, the constructers championship is more important to the Japanese factories than the rider series, and they would want nothing better than to finish on top in both championships too. Don't read too much into the testing times for Suzuki. You never know just what is being tested and by whom at any one time. Yamaha spent most of the test with both Rossi and Lorenzo testing 2010 parts for development and some 2009 parts such as new clutches and electronics versions. We don't yet know what spec the Suzuki was in that Capirossi or Vermeulen tested, although Vermuelen was nearly one second faster in the test than he was in the race (which won't make him any more popular in the team!). Wait until Indy before making any judgements on performance increases from Suzuki (or anyone else for that matter) I think Spies has very few options left in MotoGP for 2010, with only Tech 3 being a competitive package that still hasn't got its riders ready for 2010. They have a growing list of riders wanting to ride for them, and I would think that Spies isn't top of their list as they may not want another GP rookie in the team next year (although he may be top of Yamahas list, which will count for more of course). Tech 3 need money for 2010 and if a decent rider comes along with a budget then I wouldn't be surprised to see them hire someone that we don't expect (Elias/Kallio or even Aoyama maybe) and that has a season or two in GP's behind them. Looking ahead, it is quite hard to see where Spies would fit into the Yamaha GP organisation if Lorenzo and Rossi stay where they are. Yamaha are unlikely to supply another factory bike for Spies in the Tech 3 team, and he is unlikely to be happy to stay in the second string team indefinitely until Rossi decides to hang up his leathers (whenever that will be) or Lorenzo decides to move on (which may be longer than you think). | ||
| Vagelis46 |
Lap times and racing another rider on a more powerful bike are 2 completely different things. This Ducati offer to Lorenzo might prove that Ducati and Stoner are not "in love" any more. Or that Stoner has a pathological (expression dedicated to Jaimec) issue that makes his considered finished from racing..... Idealy we could see Lorenzo and Stoner change bikes...... | ||
| Vagelis46 |
Or Lorenzo and Hayden change bikes, which sounds really good too..... | ||
| Jaimec |
That would work out better for Nicky than for Jorge, I think. Nicky's teamed with Valentino before and they genuinely like each other. | ||
| Trojan |
I think that if Lorenzo did leave Yamaha (which I don't think he will at all) then that leaves the door open for Spies. If Lorenzo stays at Yamaha then they will be very happy to keep him and Rossi for as long as they can and then there is little room for Spies after all. Maybe they will take him into Tech 3 just to stop someone else grabbing him and to give themselves an option for 2011 if either Rossi leaves or Lorenzo plays hard to get again. I can't see Yamaha giving Nicky Hayden a ride in the factory team simply because they don't need him and have too many other attractive options available to them. I don't think the situation would last long at Ducati with Stoner and Lorenzo in the same team! There is a rumour that Stoner and Ducati have fallen out 'big style' after Donington, and that the illness is a cover for him just walking out on the team. Stranger things have happened before now, but I wouldn't give it too much credence unless Ducati suddenly start hiring again My prediction: Rossi and Lorenzo stay at Yamaha Kallio moves to the factory Ducati and partners Hayden next year. Elias joins Pramac (again) to partner Chris Vermeulen. Ben Spies misses Mat Mladin so much he goes back to AMA racing and persuades Mat to partner him in Moto-ST (riding a factory Royal Enfield). Colin Edwards and James Toseland swear undying love for each other and run away to get married, with the service being carried out by the born again Casey Stoner who has turned his back on racing to become an Anglican minister. Randy de Puniet stops crashing....... This really is the 'silly season' now. (Message edited by trojan on August 18, 2009) | ||
| Vagelis46 |
Why Stoner and Lorenzo would not last long on the same team ?? Is there a problem between Stoner and Hayden ?? And after all if there is a problem , Ducati could follow yamaha's example and build a concrete wall between them. I wish Lorenzo joins Ducati and get the 2010 title. I wish that Stoner leaves Ducati and joins a small team like Suzuki, or he persuades Kawasaki to re-enter motoGP, or even better rides a Suter-Ilmor X3. He has no psychological stress to get results and he turns any of these machines to winning bikes. | ||
| Jaimec |
"He has no psychological stress to get results and he turns any of these machines to winning bikes." More than likely he'd turn them into 2010 Buell Blast replicas... | ||
| Vagelis46 |
That was a great ad by the way........ | ||
| Blake |
>>>Rossi and Lorenzo are on the same factory Yamaha team. So their bikes have the same rev limiter ( lets hope) and the same control Bridgestone tires. If someone do not know this is 100% ignorant about motoGP. The rev limit may well be set by each team, as they wish, where they wish. I don't know. Neither do you. Bridgestone provides multiple tire grades and each team and rider are free to choose whichever grade they like. The point is that there are a myriad of factors, some already listed, that account for one rider being faster than another on the same machine. To proclaim that it is due to one being intentionally given an advantage in engine performance is out of line and irresponsible; it is libelous and doesn't belong on this discussion board. You are wrong. The facts clearly show it. You just have some kind of queer dislike for Rossi, one of the most affable and likeable men in the MotoGP paddock, similar to his good friend and fellow MotoGP racer, Colin Edwards. On the subject of Lorenzo, I'd like to see him move to Ducati with Nick Hayden just to see how he would do. The Ducati machine seems to be somewhat of an enigman. It would be interesting to see if another world champion becomes befuddled by the Ducati or if he is able to adapt to it like only Stoner has been able to do so far. I'm still routing for Nick to get a better handle on the Duc. He seems determined to do so. (Message edited by blake on August 18, 2009) | ||
| Trojan |
becomes befuddled Blake, what has befallen you? Thou seems to have come over all Victorian old chap Seriously....Lorenzo on a Ducati won't happen in a million years. He is far too analytical and calculating to take such a huge risk on such a poison chalice as that. I would love to see Lorenzo and Stoner as team mates though....he would eat Casey for breakfast | ||
| Vagelis46 |
I am sure Jorge would prefer to "eat" Adriana ....... "The rev limit may well be set by each team, as they wish, where they wish. I don't know. Neither do you. Bridgestone provides multiple tire grades and each team and rider are free to choose whichever grade they like. " Bridgestone brings just 2 tire grades for each event. Basicaly 90% of the racers start the race on exactly the same tires, so the tire is out of the equation. Rev limiter ? I am sure Jorge would like to set the limiter 1000rpm below Rossi's bike just for the fun of it........ It was announced that Lorenzo just used this week the cluch system that Rossi was using the last few weeks. I could not be much, but just an extra help in corner entry or out of the corners could make a difference at GP level. There are other parts that are not the same on the factory M1s. How about the "new" and advanced electronics he tested on Monday ?? A potential world champion should never assume #2 status in any team, because it will wear him. Lorenzo should be bold and join Ducati. | ||
| Trojan |
It was announced that Lorenzo just used this week the cluch system that Rossi was using the last few weeks. I could not be much, but just an extra help in corner entry or out of the corners could make a difference at GP level. There are other parts that are not the same on the factory M1s. How about the "new" and advanced electronics he tested on Monday ?? Both riders get to choose the setup of their own bikes, so I'm sure there is stuff on Lorenzo's bike that Rossi doesn't use and vice versa. The big teams usually have a lot of parts to test at the rare test days that they are allowed to carry out these days, so tend to split the workload between the riders to get the most information and track time. This means that while Lorenzo was testing a new clutch and electronics Rossi was testing the 2010 chassis and some other parts. No conspiracy theory or better treatment for Rossi, just simple expediancy and practical measures to test as much kit as possible in a short space of time. I am sure that when they line up for practice they will both have access to all of the latest kit. As for Lorenzo joining Ducati...He has said himself that the number one option is Yamaha, so he is just using Ducati as a bargaining tool to try and get more money from Yamaha. If he isn't careful he'll find himself without a ride at all |
