| Author | Message | ||
     Kazoom |
4 VALVE XL/BUELL HEADS... Anyway as some have requested from the other help thread here are a few pics of the $2250 complete 4 valve XL head kit I bought from Rich at RPMHEMI. Seems to be a good guy. This is crappy timing right now because I am realy not in the mood for tech right now but I can slowy transfer info to those interested from my thread on the XL forum where I started my search for these 4V heads. http://xlforum.net/vbportal/forums/showthread.php? t=38726 I am also involved with perf automotive stuff, heavy into canted valve cleveland stuff myself and also building/moding 2 sets of billet 4V Cleveland type 4Valve heads right now for blown and na sbf applications at this time. Anyway I got 2 X1 ones and a old chop originaly I was going to build a new 90" 4valve for a custom fat tire X1 I got planned but recently got a retired 114" prostock engine for it now so I was going to test this 90" 4valve build in my old chop for now.       (Message edited by kazoom on August 21, 2009) | ||
| Kazoom |
here is a show in tell pic of some of the lower end parts for this 4 valve XL build...  cast iron 90" axtell cly with flat top pistons, stock spec carrillo rods, se 551 cams, jims hydrosoild lifters, zippers crank scraper, tube kit, 4140 pushrods | ||
| Eshardball |
Holy Sh!t. Can't wait to see it together and a dyno sheet | ||
| Hugie03flhr |
That is trick!!! You gotta do some video on the build and the finish bike balls out!!!  | ||
| Kalali |
That is a work of art. Beautiful piece. | ||
| 46champ |
Has anyone but me ever thought that those Feuling heads would work better with the downdraft system the XB has instead of the side draft tuber/XL system. Then we could put a Holly 2brl carb they make them up to 500 CFM. | ||
| Kazoom |
Its been done 46champ, I also did have plans to move the carb mounts higher up to the top ends of the intake if possible, simular to this...  here are a few more examples... http://thekneeslider.com/archives/2008/04/07/harle y-davidson-4-valve-big-twin-sportbike/  I believe this is a 120" top gas bike with dual mikuni's on each side with a set of 4V Feuling heads.   (Message edited by kazoom on August 22, 2009) | ||
| Maru |
Glad to see you were able to get a set of heads for your project Kaz. Steve | ||
| Maru |
The controversy over the value of a 4 valve head is caused by confusion over a 4 valves benefit. The 4v does not necessarily flow more air than a good 2v head but they flow more air at low valve lifts, Since even the highest lift came has to start with zero lift the 4v starts flowing sooner. They work best with cams with moderate lift and duration and as a result are less likely to be affected by reversion. Reversion is the cause of that nasty dip in the torque curve you see on some bikes with radical cams. They will not make more power than a good set of 2v heads but they will make plenty of power with a really nice powerband. | ||
| 5liter |
What do they use on the Pro Stock Buell and Vrod bikes that run in the NHRA events? | ||
| Maru |
When Kaz first started posting on another forum I kind of poo -pooed the idea of a 4v big inch long stroke twin as a waist of money. The problem is, the Sportster/Buell engines are so prone to reversion when you try to feed an 88 or bigger. You need a very aggressive cam with lots of lift and lots of overlap even with the best 2v heads. The 2v will make plenty of power but the quality of the power could be improved with a 4v head. I am starting to wish I had a set myself. | ||
| Texastechx1 |
those heads look AWSOME!!!! remember... those pistons will need some new valve reliefs machined in. | ||
| Phelan |
Nick, he sent the pistons to "the man" to have them relief cut. In this case, "the man" is the kind you want to "stick it to". | ||
| Puddlepirate |
I don't know if you'll be happy with the .551 cams with that setup. You may want to consider a more aggressive option. | ||
| Court |
Those Feuling heads have been around for years . . . I've never seen anyone have any luck with them but will be eagerly watching to see if you find the formula. | ||
| Maru |
Kaz has done his homework and the .551 cams will probably work just fine. When Suzuki went to a 4v head around 1980 folks tried to run cam timing that worked in the 2v GS!000 based bikes and they were peaky and basically horrible. It did not take long to figure out that the 4v engines did not need or even like too much duration. Folks have not had much luck with them because they have not seen the number of man hours of r and d that the 2v Sportster heads have. With a long stroke engine they will not make more power than the best 2v heads but they will be close and the power will start sooner. The bike will have a better powerband if it is done right. The extra performance will not be cheap. | ||
| Kazoom |
Thanks with helping with some tech Maru. I got a list of most cam specs for XL's, none are the best to use with 4 valve heads as they are all designed for 2v. The two best off the shelf grinds with better timing events for 4v's I believe are the stock buell 551,s and the red shift 585,s which I will have to see later on if the 4v valve train setup can deal with the 585 lift. To try and make it easyer for some of you, 4 valve heads can move more air, simular to a supercharger without having a supercharger, this will hopefully tell some of you that a supercharger type 2 valve grind cam should work much better than any/most N/A type 2valve cams... now how many XL supercharger cams are made out there I can pick from?,I cant find any, but these two are close for timing. I am guessing this was one of the issues in the past with others trying these heads. I have seen posts of guys claiming 135+HP from there street 97" big twins on the dyno with the right parts. I believe this was at a much lower rpm from what the shorter 3.850?approx stroke XL engines can rev. We will have to see about the stroke thing on the XL's I have been in contact with Arao for info also as I was in the process of putting together a big bore (4.125), 3.850" or possibly a 4.00" stroker sbf using 4 valve pushrod heads also so I think I got my shit together on all this stuff. Here is one pick of the billet sbf heads welded up so I can convert the stock size sbf intake ports, water pass and intake bolt holes to that of the stock int port 302/351BOSS heads, these heads are going to be crying... FEED ME!!!. http://www.araoengineering.com/Ford/frdsmb.htm  http://araoengineering.com/Ford/clevelnd.htm (Message edited by kazoom on August 23, 2009) | ||
| Kazoom |
Some of you may also know Arao also has HD 4 valve heads although they are a bit diffrent in some ways. http://www.araoengineering.com/barley.htm | ||
| Blake |
I don't see the supercharger analogy. You're not going to be pressurizing the intake tract above ambient, so I don't see the connection. You might look at what the valve lift, duration, overlap specs are for the 1125R/CR. If you can relate that back to your air-cooled engine geometry, then you might have something. Also, what are you after, max peak HP or a good healthy powerband from 3K rpm on up? (Message edited by blake on August 23, 2009) | ||
| Phelan |
Blake, I believe he is after the "WTF?" look  . I can see where he's coming from though. Keep in mind, you have 2 intake valves per cylinder with ~1.5x more surface area than big valves in a 2v head, so the downstroke of the piston is going to fill the cylinder much faster than a conventional setup, so you don't need as much overlap. You do need more airflow, though, which is why there's a carb on each side (Kaz has 2 PSI carbs for this project IIRC). (Message edited by Phelan on August 23, 2009) | ||
| Kazoom |
sorry I tryed to make a comparision, I guess I didint do a good job lol. LSA, one of the things is blower cams have a wider LSA which is good for 4valve setups. (Message edited by kazoom on August 23, 2009) | ||
| Phelan |
Kaz, what is LSA? | ||
| Kazoom |
Lobe Sep Angle. The 551. I believe only has 107 where as I think the 585 has a better 112.5 The blower cam I got made from comp for the 4v sbf has a 114. lsa | ||
| Phelan |
I see. Is LSA what controls the duration then? (Message edited by Phelan on August 23, 2009) | ||
| Blake |
Less overlap, less duration then? What kind of engine are you looking for, max top end, or overall power (wide powerband), or a real torque beast down low and mid-range only? | ||
| Buellistic |
IMHO, these HEADS will put the POWER BAND where "i" ride ... | ||
| Kazoom |
Basicly less overlap yes, I will be doing a comparision to my white 01 X1 which has the so called factory "race kit"lol and NRHS stage 3 ported cnc heads , S-E 536 for now (will be changing to se 575 cams) with Revolution Performance 1.67 roller rockers and there 1250 cly kit running 11:1 comp and few other goodies wich runs best from 3000 to 7000rpm, this is the working range for the 4 valve engine so it should be a fun comparision.   (Message edited by kazoom on August 23, 2009) | ||
| Phelan |
Can't you have a company like redshift or some other re-grind a high-lift cam for more LSA / less duration so that it'd be better suited for your application? I thought I had read somewhere of companies willing to do so on XL and other HD cams. | ||
| Kazoom |
It was something I was going to look into with zippers or others when the right time came... http://www.coltcams.com/ Here is some good cam tech for you, 2v and 4v... http://www.elgincams.com/campaper.html (Message edited by kazoom on August 24, 2009) | ||
| Fast1075 |
4V heads have better thermal efficiency and better combustion efficiency...the pistons can be lighter because they need no or less dome...and flame propagation is better because of the low domes. The valves are lighter, requiring less seat pressure...the plug is centrally located...etc, etc. | ||
| Kazoom |
Heres an old artical on a Feuling 4valve efi build some of you will get a kick out of, compression is a bit over kill for the street but making 160hp in a heavey evo big twin at im sure a much lower (6000rpm?) rpm than an XL can spin. http://www.et-performance.com/iron_mag.html btw, I planned on running a min 12:1 static comp with my deal. (Message edited by kazoom on August 24, 2009) | ||
| Kazoom |
Just an update to those interested, I got my parts/finished my headache with JM and am moving on. Anyway I have more feuling 4 valve tech info on my other thread. I got a few sets of the Feuling / Rivera 4 valve harley davidson, buell heads now with some diffrent neat versions... http://xlforum.net/vbportal/forums/showthread.php? p=2801255#post2801255 I did a 4V search here a while back and was really suprised by some of the bad-w feuling 4V misinformation here so I was not sure bw was the right place to keep/post about 4V tech but for those of you that are interested, my thread might be of some help, anyway here are just a few comparision pics of the feuling race/stock heads...         | ||
| Kazoom |
more info here... http://xlforum.net/vbportal/forums/showthread.php? t=38726&page=48 a few more of some other version heads...     |
