| Author | Message | ||
     Eengler2 |
Blake I would understand if Eric were advertising a kit, but we are simply asking if he is considering it. Also, do any sponsors make a turbo kit??? If he is not considering selling a kit, I will pester him about the details. If he is considering, I will respect his R&D and wait for kit and BadWeb sponsorship. If you can direct us to a Turbo kit offered by a sponsor, that would be appreciated. Whether or not there are any turbo kits on the market, I don't know. That is of no consequence. The privilege of conducting market research is strictly reserved for sponsors and is so stated in our terms of use. My intent is to help keep Eric on compliant to our rules here so that he may continue to share his very interesting work with all of us. Unfortunately if some insist on pushing the issue, the thread will suffer. Like I said in my first post. If Eric decides to offer a kit for sale, and if he signs on as a sponsor, y'all will be the first to know. Until then, please just stick to the fun tech stuff. It's just a simple polite request intended to uphold our terms of use here equally for all. Cool? Blake (Message edited by blake on August 21, 2009) | ||
| Not_purple_s2 |
Anyway back to the kick-ass turbo build. So, you left the internals stock? Any changes to valvetrain, heads, pistons, ect.? What psi are you going to run in street trim? How easy is it to turn up the boost for say a night at the drag strip? Would you have to spend all day tuning or can you just hook up a laptop re-flash the ECM and turn up the boost? Oh and keep us posted on long term durability. I hope you don't mind the interrogation.  | ||
| The_italian_job |
same here, I apologize for asking it, but I don't see any conflict of interest here since I don't recall any sponsor selling a turbo kit for XB... No apology is necessary. See above for the reasoning behind my request.  Blake (Message edited by blake on August 21, 2009) | ||
| Oxygen151 |
awesome bike! great build! I doubt there is a cleaner turbo XB out there. bullshit forum rule. not once did he say he was trying to market this "kit" for public sale or try to pass this off to anyone on badweb. let us all just enjoy this fine motorcycle and be grateful for any of the knowledge eric has been willing to pass on to us. The man so graciously talking about his work is not the issue. He has been the perfect gentleman and a wonderful contributor here. It's the folks asking him about the sale of his work that are problematic. I guess maybe I wasn't clear in stating that. So there it is. Blake PS: If you don't like the rules here, you should probably avoid the place. (Message edited by oxygen151 on August 20, 2009) (Message edited by blake on August 21, 2009) | ||
| Ericz |
The engine has stock internals. The only changes I have made are Cometic MLS top end gaskets and SE cylinder studs. I really like how the bike accelerates running 11psi of boost but I think it is going to be more realistic to keep things around 9psi on the street. I really dont need to wheelie that much and there isnt much of anything that will out accelerate me either I have a manual boost controller that I can easily adjust the boost level while I ride, which makes the fun even more fun!! With the addition of the MAP sensor to the ECM, the fuel map is tuned for any boost level to 11-12psi so far. I can adjust the fuel map as far as the MAP sensor will read. I have a 2 bar sensor on now (14 psi max) and could go to a 3 bar (28 psi max) or even a 4 bar (42 psi max) sensor to adjust the fueling accordingly. The larger the range of the sensor, the less precise the fueling can be tuned. There are only 8 cells that determine fueling from the MAP sensor signal and those 8 are divided how ever you want. The turbo I use is a Garrett GT22. I have heard of Turbo Connections efforts toward a kit but have not seen any of it yet. Kenney-- I don't have any relatives in CT that I know of. My turbo setup could work just fine on an XB9. I am thinking now of forged pistons and slight cyl head porting so I can crank up the boost and come closer to 200hp I hope that there are others trying crazy things with their XB's that inspire us all!!! I love to make things like this-- I am always learning and trying to improve. | ||
| Xb9ser |
Eric works for Gainesville HD Buell acording to his profile. A sponcer, If he sold through them no issue I see.But what do I know. If Gainsville Harley-Davidson Buell is offering Buell turbo kits for sale, then no problem. Have at it. Right now, I don't believe that is the case. Blake (Message edited by blake on August 21, 2009) | ||
| Blake |
I've made a simple request. Please just do me the favor of honoring it. I don't want to argue. You'll not be changing BadWeB policy no matter how long or how tenaciously you argue the issue. Our policy on this has been rock solid and unchanged for over a decade. If you need a reminder, the BadWeB Terms of Use. | ||
| Blake |
Eric, When you talk about the MAP sensor and the ECM, are you talking about the stock ECM or a special aftermarket module? | ||
| Nik |
Where did you get those gauge pods? | ||
| Ericz |
These are the gauge pods I have mounted to the handlebar cross brace:http://autometer.com/cat_mountsdetail.aspx?vid=84& sid=49&mid=8&pg=0 I am using the stock ECM with a MAP sensor wired in using pins available after removing the exhaust servo setup. With some changes to the EEPROM, the ECM will read the MAP sensor voltage and can scale the fueling based on manifold pressure. | ||
| Blake |
>>>With some changes to the EEPROM, the ECM will read the MAP sensor voltage and can scale the fueling based on manifold pressure. How cool is THAT! Might a non-turbo system take advantage of the same in order to enrich the fueling where desired? | ||
| Gunut75 |
I'm with Blake on that question!!!! | ||
| Geforce |
"Might a non-turbo system take advantage of the same in order to enrich the fueling where desired?" Short answer... No. I'll try and explain this the best I can. The MAP sensor is critical on a forced induction system because you need some way to scale the fuel and timing based on the amount of boost coming into the engine. Without forced induction you might be able to use a Mass Air Flow sensor, which really does the job of the above application except it just meters the air flow coming into the engine instead of metering the pressure of air in the system. I have always wondered about putting a MAF on a bike, but then you start to complicate things, add a bunch of wiring and there isn't enough sealed intake track to really just toss one in there and have it be worthwhile. What Eric has done is really the most efficient and least intrusive method of metering that pressure into the engine AND found a solution to the mapping/ecm dilemma. For that I applaud your efforts! Well done! See this link to learn about parts of the EFI system. BASIC breakdown. http://auto.howstuffworks.com/fuel-efficiency/fuel -consumption/fuel-mapping-computer1.htm You might be able to do the same on a N/A bike but I don't think you would gain the same type of benefits because there just isn't much of a pressure change until you add in forced induction. Am I close on this Ericz? My experience with this comes from owning and drag racing a '87 Buick Grand National and a daily driven STS Rear mounted Turbocharged Silverado SS which I tune with EFI Live. I tried to plan out a turbo solution for my 1125r but it's just too costly and difficult on a motorcycle when I already have other toys with blowers. THIS is sweet though. (Message edited by Geforce on August 21, 2009) | ||
| Nik |
MAP and AFM/MAF sensors both measure the air mass flow going into the engine. The former measures this indirectly through the pressure (using Bernoulli) and the former directly, and is thus the most accurate. Either can be used for NA or boosted applications. The alpha-N setup our bikes come with stock doesn't have a way to measure the actual airflow. It just kind of guesses based on the TPS vs RPM tables. It has no way to correct for changes in altitude, temperature and air density ('non-standard conditions'.) It has to use the o2 sensor to scale the fuel tables to correct for these things, but you have to go into the learning mode cruise for that to happen. With a MAP sensor that scaling could be real time which would be a great benefit to a NA setup. I'm really curious as to how he got it working. I though about wiring a MAP in place of the TPS; the thought of going though the exhaust valve didn't even cross my mind. (Message edited by nik on August 21, 2009) | ||
| Geforce |
Nik, do you think the MAP sensor would be able to draw enough information to make a big difference in a N/A setup? I just don't see how it would make a HUGE difference because you really don't have a serious amount of air flow and pressure to begin with. Maybe I am missing something, but I totally agree that someway to measure airflow to begin with would help greatly, but I think a MAF would do a better job in a N/A setup. The compromise might be the MAP sensor though. | ||
| Nik |
It depends on the resolution and frequency of the channel on the ECM that the sensor is hooked up to. Again it would help with changes to the ambient conditions. Even here at sea level, the difference in pressure between a hot and cold day can be significant, and pressure drops about 1 in-Hg for every 1000' of elevation. I just know that when I go to work in the morning its cold and home in the afternoon its hot; and my bike stumbles and idles awful at the beginning of each trip because the fuel tables are scaled based on the previous conditions until I cruise for a while in CL. Same thing when I go play in the mountains. In theory a MAP sensor would fix all that. | ||
| Srwitt |
Has anybody looked at megasquirt as an alternative to using the factory ECM? Or are turbo Buells still relatively new? | ||
| Blake |
I'm thinking that the mechanism through which Eric modified the ECM to provide increased fuel for increased MAP voltage will allow an overall factor to be applied as well. So, short answer... maybe. All it would take would be a baseline MAP reference voltage for the stock mapping that is below normal airbox pressure. But maybe the resolution is not good enough? | ||
| Xoptimizedrsx |
Eric what made you go with the #22 over the smaller with plenty power of the #16 turbo? mike | ||
| Uawjesse |
Any updates? New Pics? Drag strip videos? Please keep the information coming!!! | ||
| Blake |
Bump? | ||
| Buford |
Let me know if anyone hears anything from Turbo Connection (Boostisgood?). Brian won't return my email inquiries regarding a deposit.. thanks | ||
| Ericz |
Here's the latest: I made a slight structural improvement to the exhaust Y-junction for the wastegate because the weld cracked in a couple spots. I also added a support bracket to one of the wastegate flange bolts. I painted the exhaust plumbing flat black just for a temporary finish for the magazine article. After those photos are taken I will send it all off to have it jet-hot coated to match the headers. The MAP sensor function that I use in the stock ECM has VERY low resolution-- as in only 8 cells to dictate fueling changes as a percent. It works very well with low boost forced induction but I'm not sure there would be any benefit to using it for a N/A setup. I had thought of swapping the TPS input for a MAP sensor input but knew that all of the other maps such as cold start enrichment, WOT enrichment, and timing would be very hard to get working, at least with my tuning experience and knowledge. Here are a few current pics:      On another note, I have a friend that owns a 145ci S&S Tribute motor in a Softail pro-street styled chassis. He was so impressed by my setup that he is bringing that beast to my garage in a couple weeks for me to turbocharge!!! YAY!! That will be tons of fun!!! It already puts down 180hp and 180ft/lbs and I cant wait to see how things improve!!!! | ||
| Froggy |
145ci? Thats bigger than most 4 cyl cars! | ||
| Bromanowski |
Wow! That's almost 2.4L. What's the biggest displacement you can take the thunderstorm engines to? I would love a huge displacement beast in my XB. | ||
| Srwitt |
I don't wanna say it cause it looks so sweet, but your bike would be a perfect candidate for a race belly pan, hide most of the turbo stuff, and keep the bike nice and sleeper. | ||
| Wavex |
Pure Sickness. | ||
| Blake |
That is without a doubt, by far, the slickest turbo install on a Buell that I've ever seen. The whole bike looks really nice. | ||
| Blake |
Eric, I'd think that if you can get the exhaust tract and turbo clamped down tightly to the engine/tranny cases via standoff bracketry and clamps, you will be good to go wrt more crack propagation issues. The added mass at the rear warrants even some extra clampage compared to the OEM muffler treatment there. | ||
| Ericz |
Thank you everyone!! I am so happy with how everything came together! Blake, I think that I have all of the support I need now. I have the turbo supported solid by the 3/8" thick exhaust outlet flange to the rear muffler mounting holes, a very strong 3/16" thick SS exhaust support bracket welded to the mid-pipe and bolted to the front muffler support bushing, and now I have a second 3/16" thick SS support from the right rear muffler support bolt to one of the wastegate inlet flange bolts. Between the mounting locations and the .065 wall thickness of the plumbing, the exhaust and turbo are all secured very solid to the motor. |
