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     Blake |
Just an aside related to my friend Dave's comment about Everest. It piqued my interest so I did some investigation google style (spent five minutes surfing the internet). By the end of 2006 (climbing season) there were 3,050 ascents to the summit by 2,062 persons and at least 630 more ascents in 2007. There have been more than 200 deaths Because of the rugged conditions of Mount Everest and difficult weather patterns the corpses are left where they fell and some are visible from standard climbing routes. So about 10%. Still a lot but not 25%. But notably, the Everest tragedy of 1996 did spawn discussion, much as we are having now wrt IOM TT... During the 1996 climbing season, fifteen people died trying to come down from the summit, making it the deadliest single year in Everest history. Eight of them died on 11 May alone. The disaster gained wide publicity and raised questions about the commercialization of Everest. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Redbuelljunkie |
Blake, I'm quite confused with your logic. People race motorcycles, races are organized by sanctioning bodies and the event is for the racers and spectators. No one is coerced into competing or spectating. In all forms of motor sport there is risk- very high risk, and everyone takes it seriously. In reality, there is no conceptual difference between AMA, WSBK, MotoGP, and Real Road Racing (IOM TT, Irish Road Racing, etc...)- they are all motorcycle race series where professionals compete on closed courses. There are differences in venues- the real road racers recognize their courses have a smaller margin of error, and race lengths are much longer (38 miles per lap at IOM). But I take great exception to your premise that somehow real road racing promotes "carnage" while all other motorcycle racing does not. That conclusion is specious. It seems like you are attempting to compare Romans throwing Christians to the lions to professional road racing. You are insinuating that fans of real road racing have some sort of blood-lust, but fans of any other type of motorcycle racing do not. Do you not see the fallacy of your thinking? I don't know of a single motorcycle racing fan who wants to see a crash- regardless of what type of racing they are watching. I personally find it insulting that someone would think that I watch any kind of sport hoping to see injury of death. The truth is it can happen to anyone, anywhere, and it is devastating every time it happens. However, the fact that it can, and does, happen on all closed race courses means you should either have a philosophical problem with all of it, or none of it- it is a fallacy to single out one segment of a group who are all engaged in the same activity. I really cannot imagine what makes you think that the reason for real road racing is carnage and death- it defies comprehension. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Blake |
I don't think that. The reason for the race is the same as any other. It is the result of the race that is horrifyingly aberrant. Maybe you missed it? 
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| Redbuelljunkie |
Blake, I am aware of the statistics- it's very sad. But that list proves two things- the Isle of Man TT is dangerous (like all motor sport), and that there are a lot of riders who want to compete there. I will say it again, real road racing's premise is neither carnage or death- for either the spectators or participants. It's odd to see a fellow Libertarian argue to stop people from doing something they want to do. If the riders had a huge problem with the safety, then no one would race there. Everyone has a different level of acceptable risk, yours is lower than real road racers-so why do you feel the need to save them from themselves? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Tome |
Have you ever seen or read an interview with any of the racers (especially those in the Senior TT), they do it because they love it. Some say that circuit racing is boring in comparison and if you can lap the IoM at over 130mph then I can see why! Many riders fought for it to be taken out of the old GP races and in a way I think that's a good thing, the death toll would be much higher! | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Blake |
" It's odd to see a fellow Libertarian argue to stop people from doing something they want to do." I'm not. You no read good. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Blake |
"the Isle of Man TT is dangerous (like all motor sport)" "like all motor sport"? Show me any other with a comparable toll. I sure don't know of any. If you aren't willing to go back and actually thoughtfully read my comments, I'll try to spell them out for you. I don't propose a ban on the event. Period. I just can never see myself supporting or hyping it again, and I think those who do continue to do so will have blood on their hands. I think that the very significant commercial aspect ads to the horrendous toll. All I listed were the fatalities, God knows how many crippled and severely maimed there are as a result of the island's motorcycle racing events. I think that without the commercial aspect, without the island government (the people of the island) promoting and funding it, without the TV coverage and all the accompanying hype, the allure of the race and thus the participation and thus the toll would drop sharply. I think that if the event is to be promoted commercially and folks are going to benefit from its promotion and running, then the course should be made much less risky. If the death toll were on the order of 50% of competitors, would you still support the event and its commercial promotion? I don't think we're talking about weather or not we should support an event that kills too many people. I think we are arguing about what constitutes "too many." Well for me, the heinous toll of the IOM events is way too many. So I am saying that I refuse to support, promote, hype, or even watch the event. I protest against the significant commercialization and hype of it. That's all. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Redbuelljunkie |
I just can never see myself supporting or hyping it again, and I think those who do continue to do so will have blood on their hands. I think that the very significant commercial aspect ads to the horrendous toll. All I listed were the fatalities, God knows how many crippled and severely maimed there are as a result of the island's motorcycle racing events. I think that without the commercial aspect, without the island government (the people of the island) promoting and funding it, without the TV coverage and all the accompanying hype, the allure of the race and thus the participation and thus the toll would drop sharply. Then this is the crux of our disagreement: the IOM TT does not depend on support, promotion, or hype to exist- it continues after 100 years because it retains the purity and spirit of racing's origins. It is very dangerous, and it requires skill, courage, determination, and acceptance of risk. It has not always had international prominence, in fact races were run there for 42 years before they held their first World Championship race. The IOM TT is legendary, archetypal, and awe-inspiring- it truly is the road racing capital of the world. Riders do not compete there because of commercialization, hype, or spectators- they go there to test themselves against the most challenging road course in the world. It wouldn't matter if there was no hype, or commercialization, or spectators- the riders would still flock to the Isle of Man to do what racers have been doing for more than a century. I understand that you don't accept the level of risk IOM TT riders do, and I understand the number of tragedies is too high for you also. But your comments suggest that no one should accept these risks either, and anyone who supports real road racing supports carnage and death. No one wants to see carnage or death- it's just part of the risk of motor sport. If there was no promoting, funding, or spectating at the IOM TT, the riders would still race. That only leaves the option of not allowing them to do it, which is why I and others have concluded that you just want them to stop. I do, however, respect your choice to not watch or support the IOM TT. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Blake |
Why would so many want to race on such a dangerous course and push the envelope if no one cared, no one was there to watch? Some surely still would do so. Good on 'em if that's what they want to do. But absent the appeal and hype, a LOT would not. To pretend otherwise is not being honest. Personally, I'd like to ride the course someday. I won't ever race a motorcycle on a public road, but I'd like to ride around the IOM for sure. Why don't they promote that instead of the God awful bloodiest race on the planet? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Slaughter |
Blake - it is a cliche' about so many activities that cannot be logically explained: If you have to ask, you won't get it anyways. Your "WHY" is a valid question... but the answer: "Because I want to" or "Because they want to" may not satisfy you and it just CANNOT BE JUSTIFIED. That's just the way it is. I ask the same thing about people who choose to spend their evenings on the couch in front of their TV - WHY??? Especially when it is KNOWN how harmful that inactive lifestyle really is. Ditto Smoking Ditto overeating Ditto Fatty Foods Ditto DRINKING "LITE" BEER (just possibly the ULTIMATE evil on my planet) | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Blake |
When I ask "why", I'm not talking about the participants. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Dbird29 |
I think Blake is asking Matt (Trojan) why? Matt's just not going to answer here because he knows he would contradict what he said about AMA racing and Topeka. It might point out some hypocrisy in all the trash talk about AMA vs. The World. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Gregtonn |
Should Indy be shut down? It has the highest number of fatalities among closed course race tracks. G | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Blake |
Who is asking for anything to be shut down? Does Indy's record of fatalities compare to the IOM (76 dead as a direct result of motorcycle racing since 1990)? No? Then WTF is your point? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Slaughter |
Got it about the "WHY" - more in the context of "WHY" support such a deadly sport? (and I'm not sure "WHY" people above are thinking you're advocating shutting down the race) | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Gregtonn |
...Then WTF is your point?... My point is that motor racing has always been a dangerous sport. Racers and fans both know there can and will be fatalities. By the way do you know how many people were killed "sport riding" riding motorcycles on public roads in the US since 1990? Oddly you are providing fuel to the "motorcycles should be banned" crowd. You say the Isle of Mann is "Bloody Nightmare of Carnage". But you then say you don't want it banned. Are you willing to put a number up that you believe is an acceptable number of casualties? No? Then what is your point? G | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Blake |
"My point is that motor racing has always been a dangerous sport." That's never been at issue. So I ask again, WTF is your point? If you have to ask me what my point is, then you no read good. Apparently you just jumped into the thread without bothering to read it from the start. I'm speaking to one specific venue that has accrued a wildly horrific and disproportionate death toll compared to any other in commercialized motorcycle racing. You want to support it (the commercialization and promotion of the events there), have at it. I won't. I think it's shameful. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Blake |
"Oddly you are providing fuel to the "motorcycles should be banned" crowd. " Baloney. "Are you willing to put a number up that you believe is an acceptable number of casualties?" If the number had been on the order of one dead every other year or in that statistical neighborhood, I wouldn't have near as much of a problem with it. That level of tragedy would have yielded about 9 dead since 1990, not 76. So about one order of magnitude less, meaning 1/10th. That would still be WAY above the statistical norm for any single racing venue, but it would not reach the level of horrific. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Blake |
Which raises the converse question. If you don't see a problem with the IOM death toll as it stands, then how many people need to die there every year for you to deem it unacceptable and thus compel you to withdraw your support of racing at that venue? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Gregtonn |
...then how many people need to die there every year for you to deem it unacceptable... What I deem acceptable is irrelevant. The race could not exist without racers willing to accept the risks. Anyone who races there knows the history of the race. I believe the ultimate decision should be theirs and I will respect it. Do you feel qualified to make that decision in their stead? I certainly don't. G | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Smoke |
Blake, what is the total number of entrants in the IOM TT since 1990? 76/X=? everest #'s:200/3680=.054 or 5.4% as it is the number of ascents not people participating that is the proper comparison. in the IOM i am sure that many entrants enter year after year and i think your 25% number may be skewed. 25%=.25=76/304. instinctively i would say that there would have been more than 300 entrants since 1990. race results for 2007 list only top 10 with 5 classes = 50 per year minimum. IOM is a tradition in motorcycle racing and each participant or attendee has their own fate in their own hands as far as i am concerned. (if i ever go to watch i will try not to be in a possible impact ares.) tim | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Redbuelljunkie |
Here's some 2009 info I found: Race--------------- Date---------Entries TT Superbike------31 May------38 TT Sidecar A------31 May----- -35 (x2) TT Superstock-----2 June----- -42 TT Supersport 1----2 June------43 TT Supersport 2----4 June----- -41 TT Sidecar B------ 4 June-------45 (x2) Senior TT-----------6 June-------38 TT Superbike------ 8 June-------50 TT Sidecar A------ 8 June----- -29 (x2) SS Junior TT 1----- 9 June----- -52 TT Superbike------ 9 June----- --53 SS Junior TT 2----- 9 June------ 43 Senior TT------------12 June------31 Using these numbers there were 299 riders doing race laps from 31 May to 6 June, and 350 riders from 8 June to 12 June at the 2009 IOM TT races. Each of the above groups also had two practice sessions, and these numbers do not include the entries for the Lightweight 400, Ultra Lightweight 125, and TTXGP classes. In short, there are a whole lot of riders doing both practice and race laps at the Isle of Man each year. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Blake |
Greg, You no read good or are not being honest wrt my question. Again... If you don't see a problem with the IOM death toll as it stands, then how many people need to die there every year for you to deem it problematic and thus compel you to withdraw your support of racing at that venue? Tim, Comparing one tragedy to another in order to justify it is not the type of logic I'm willing to employ; it equates to the old adage "two wrongs don't make a right." That said, I don't see tens of thousands of spectators traveling to Everest every year or commercialized TV coverage every year. I think Everest rises to the level that I'd like to see happen at the IOM. Let those racers who want to race there absent the crowds and hype and promotion. I have zero problem with that. My main issue is that I let myself get enthused about helping promote the event here on BadWeB without understanding the situation. Now that I understand it, that will never happen again. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Blake |
"Using these numbers there were 299 riders" Your assumption is that each rider enters one and only one class. Probably not accurate. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Redbuelljunkie |
Correct- there are riders that ride in more than one class, but I'm relating this more to the large number of riders willing to accept the risk of both practice and race laps at the IOM- it is a sizable group. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Liquorwhere |
Why would so many want to race on such a dangerous course and push the envelope if no one cared, no one was there to watch? I would point out that the Dragon has a pretty wicked casualty rate, broken bikes, bones and even death, and riders flock to it when no one except them is watching, sure some tape it and post it, but no money is won, yet they ride it like they are trying to win a race..right or wrong..it is ridden quite often at high rates of speed and it collects it's toll on those that try it. I understand your point, and I understand why you choose not to support it and I respect that point of view, but to me, I would risk life and limb for one chance to take a real superbike flat out around that course, but again that is just me, crowd or no crowd. I would also like to point out the Baja 1000, Erzburg, X games, BITD Vegas to Reno, the Baja 500, the Elsinore all took their toll in pain suffering and even death, yet they flourished then and some still do as the ultimate test of man and machine.... (Message edited by liquorwhere on August 04, 2009) | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Blake |
Thank you for respecting my point of view. As to the other venues/events, I just don't see them rising to anywhere near the level of tragedy as the IOM motorcycle racing. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Gregtonn |
...You no read good or are not being honest wrt my question. Again... If you don't see a problem with the IOM death toll as it stands, then how many people need to die there every year for you to deem it problematic and thus compel you to withdraw your support of racing at that venue?... Unfortunately Blake it seems to be you who is having difficulty with reading comprehension if not honesty. There was nothing incomprehensible, ambiguous or dishonest about my reply. It was was short, honest and directly to the point. Perhaps after you review these two simple statements and a question you can reply in kind, honestly, without implications, innuendo or outright insult. Or not. What I deem acceptable is irrelevant. I believe the ultimate decision should be made by the racers and I will respect it. Do you feel qualified to make that decision in their stead? G | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Blake |
I'm not trying to make any decision for anyone but myself and my question to you was purely about your decision for yourself, nobody else. Don't be an idiot. (Message edited by blake on August 04, 2009) | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Blake |
Try reading one word at a time... "compel you to withdraw your support of racing at that venue?" "your support" meaning watching it on television and the like. |
