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Blake
| | Posted on Saturday, August 01, 2009 - 10:00 am: | 
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So that issue is moot. The issue is one of performance parity. Left unrestricted the Ducati factory built race-only WSBK machines would soon find more and more HP and totally outclass the competition. It is their standard operating procedure.
Kudos to the Ducati Corse engineers and engine builders. They produce amazing engines that are true world beaters in the fullest sense of the phrase.
Let's hope that Rotax and/or some future Buell-based WSBK effort may have something to surprise the world as well. |
Court
| | Posted on Saturday, August 01, 2009 - 10:27 am: |
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Dentguy
| | Posted on Saturday, August 01, 2009 - 10:52 am: |
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Maybe it's time to start referring to the 1125RR as the Buell factory built race-only American Superbike machine.
Just a thought. |
Blake
| | Posted on Saturday, August 01, 2009 - 11:10 am: |
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That's what it is and that is what it has been called since day one by all those protesting it's existece.
Applying the same perfectly valid description to the Ducati 1198R F09 racing machine reveals the apparent hypocrisy of some who put WSBK up on such an almighty lofty pedestal while harshly berating and maligning AMA SBK.
Bending/rewriting the rules is okay as long as it helps Ducati win yet another WSBK championship.
(Message edited by Blake on August 01, 2009) |
Dentguy
| | Posted on Saturday, August 01, 2009 - 12:43 pm: |
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Understand your point Blake. I'm all for calling them what they are (reason for my first post) no matter the manufacturer. But, some may say (probably not many on here) this statement could easily go both ways with a few changes.
Bending/rewriting the rules is okay as long as it helps Ducati win yet another WSBK championship.
Bending/rewriting the rules is okay as long as it helps Buell win an AMA Sportbike/Superbike championship. |
Blake
| | Posted on Saturday, August 01, 2009 - 01:54 pm: |
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You conveniently left out "yet another".
That convenient omission makes a HUGE difference in the scheme of things.
No rules were bent or changed in Daytona Sportbike. They are what they are as from the start, so your point there is baloney.
Check back with me in another ten years and let's compare the histories of Ducati in WSBK versus Buell in AMA SBK racing. Let's see if Buell is allowed to race a version of their street bike that has an extra 200cc 100cc but still call it by it's former displacement related name, aka "1098R."
(Message edited by blake on August 01, 2009) |
Court
| | Posted on Saturday, August 01, 2009 - 02:01 pm: |
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Court
| | Posted on Saturday, August 01, 2009 - 02:02 pm: |
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By the way . . . . . if it were your money and you had to bet on who'd be the preeminent name in racing 5 years hence who would you bet on . . . . Buell or Ducati? |
Blake
| | Posted on Saturday, August 01, 2009 - 02:15 pm: |
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To be the preeminent name in motorcycle racing probably means being MotoGP champion.
In AMA street-bike based racing, I'd not bet against Buell. The competition will be fierce though, so it's a not a safe bet that they'll be "preeminent". But if I had to bet, I'd back da Buell.  |
Hughlysses
| | Posted on Saturday, August 01, 2009 - 02:36 pm: |
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I'd bet against Buell, but just because I want them to succeed and I have lousy luck at betting! |
Dentguy
| | Posted on Saturday, August 01, 2009 - 03:11 pm: |
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Wow, plenty to address here since I may have ruffled some feathers.
You conveniently left out "yet another".
Yes I did. Because, they haven't won either championship yet. I did say statement with a few changes.
No rules were bent or changed in Daytona Sportbike. They are what they are as from the start, so your point there is baloney.
I think there were some weight changes in Sportbike. What about Superbike? As for my comments, I never said there were rule changes. I said SOME (I didn't say me) may say that statement could easily go both ways. No baloney.
Check back with me in another ten years and let's compare the histories of Ducati in WSBK versus Buell in AMA SBK racing. Let's see if Buell is allowed to race a version of their street bike that has an extra 200cc but still call it by it's former displacement related name, aka "1098R."
OK and isn't it 100cc. In ten years we can also see if one of them is still allowed to race a bike in a class with the majority of the bikes almost half the displacement. Not saying right or wrong, just a statement.
By the way . . . . . if it were your money and you had to bet on who'd be the preeminent name in racing 5 years hence who would you bet on . . . . Buell or Ducati?
Neither.
To be the preeminent name in motorcycle racing probably means being MotoGP champion.
World wide racing, I would say yes to that.
In AMA street-bike based racing, I'd not bet against Buell. The competition will be fierce though, so it's a not a safe bet that they'll be "preeminent". But if I had to bet, I'd back da Buell.
I'm not sure if you are speaking of the Sportbike only class or both since you said street bike based racing. I wouldn't bet against them either in the sportbike class with the current rules.
I don't think I said anything bad about Buell or their bike. I did think it was funny how the Ducati was referred to as the "Ducati factory built race-only WSBK machines" and thought the Buell race only bike should be referred to the same way. Maybe you usually refer to it that way and call it what it is, but many on here don't.
Enjoy the day. Sorry if I don't elaborate more. I type really slow.
(Message edited by dentguy on August 01, 2009) |
Blake
| | Posted on Saturday, August 01, 2009 - 05:01 pm: |
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You no read good. As already explained...
(The Buell 1125RR factory built race-only machine) is what it is and that is what it has been called since day one by all those protesting it's existence.
Applying the same perfectly valid description to the Ducati 1198R F09 racing machine reveals the blatant hypocrisy of those who put WSBK up on such an almighty lofty pedestal while harshly berating and maligning AMA SBK and especially AMA Pro Racing's recent homologation of the Buell 1125RR.
You've apparently taken up the mission to ensure complete and utter objectivity here wrt all motorcycles and the sports in which they compete, albeit without the benefit of knowing prior discussion history here. But now that I've explained it, you continue to whine that...
quote:I did think it was funny how the Ducati was referred to as the "Ducati factory built race-only WSBK machines" and thought the Buell race only bike should be referred to the same way. Maybe you usually refer to it that way and call it what it is, but many on here don't.
Well good for you for being such a stickler for full 100% objective disclosure on all things moto. Except that this is a Buell enthusiasts' forum not the "objective motorcycle discussion forum". Yet no one here was under any illusion as to the state of the 1125RR. What if anything gave you that impression?
You no read good.
Your clumsy prevarication re "Daytona Sportbike" remains baloney.
You conveniently left out "yet another".
That convenient omission makes a HUGE difference in the scheme of things. If you are going to change the meaning of one of my statements to such a degree, then any honest relation to that statement is lost. So what is the point? Your point seems to be to diminish and belittle anything having to do with Buell racing. I've sure not seen any evidence that you support it in any way.
Your clumsy prevarication re "Daytona Sportbike" remains baloney.
No rules were bent or changed in Daytona Sportbike, as your statement clearly/dishonestly implies. The rules are what they are as from the start, so your point there is complete and utter baloney, based on a false premise. That kind of statement, yours, is what is known is dishonest. Yet your opening statement seemed to be aimed at full disclosure and objective honest commentary. How quickly that fell by the wayside. I get your modus operandi. You are all for full disclosure and truth, as long as it diminishes Buell. You favor dishonesty too, but only so long as it is employed to belittle Buell.
"I'm not sure if you are speaking of the Sportbike only class or both since you said street bike based racing. I wouldn't bet against them either in the sportbike class with the current rules."
Which interprets to mean that you would bet against Buell in SBK. Some Buell enthusiast you are.
"Wow, plenty to address here since I may have ruffled some feathers. "
Apparently you fancy yourself a real feather-ruffler. That's a petty and miserable way to go through life, telling folks how you've sensed that you've ruffled their feathers. I'll now sink to your miserable level; I'll be petty too.
I think the truth is that you got your own little feathers all ruffled up when you saw Buell given in your mind an unfair bias and Ducati exposed for employing for years the same exact mode of factory race-only "cheater bike" that some rabid Buell critics have been ranting about re the 1125RR. You just had to pipe up and set us straight! You couldn't bear to have folks thinking that the 1125RR was anything but a race only factory built bike.
You sure set us all on the straight on narrow there! I mean we might have missed that fact, well, except that it was stated clearly in the Buell press release and debated ad nauseum here including some quite strong albeit dishonest protestations of it as a "cheater bike".
Well low and behold the Ducati is no different and in years past quite more so the "cheater bike", a factory race-only machine having an extra 100cc displacement compared to its long lost street bike cousins.
From here on out, either try less personal drama and more honesty or avoid posting. |
Dentguy
| | Posted on Saturday, August 01, 2009 - 06:41 pm: |
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Wow, you didn't get much of what I was saying. You no understand well. The statement I made (your statement that I changed) is a statement I've heard and read from OTHERS many times. You seemed to take that as me saying that the rules in Sportbike were changed to benefit Buell.
For the record, I don't remember saying Buell got any unfair advantage due to some rule change and have no desire to belittle Buell. I like Buell Co. and Buells and am on the site quite a bit. I did say there were some rule changes after you said there weren't. Not ones to benefit Buell. I didn't say anything dishonest. I don't drink Buell kool aid or any brand kool aid. I like a lot of brands (including Buell) and don't think I've put any down.
Rule changes (modifications) that have happened.
http://www.amaproracing.com/competition/bulletins/ index.cfm?d=rr
As for the personal stuff about me and how I go through life. You don't know me personally and I would appreciate you not making personal comments about me and how I go through life. I haven't made any personal comments about you. I know it's your site and you can do what you want, but if you have a personal problem with me and want to flex your muscles, I would appreciate a PM or just don't get personal. |
Liquorwhere
| | Posted on Saturday, August 01, 2009 - 08:37 pm: |
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Bleke,
I will pipe up on this one, regardless of what you do afterward, but why is it if anyone disagrees with you or makes a point contrary to YOUR point all of the sudden they cannot read or think? I have never held any personal problem with you, but dammit man, why all the angst? I will say this, since you and many others bring it up, I would have NO ARGUMENT with DSB, the minute the 1098, not the 1198, but the 1098 is allowed to race against the 600's and the buell as well. The buell has displacement advantage over that bike, only 98 cc above the Aprilia, 27cc LESS than the buell, why not allow it to compete in the same class? Why only the 848? If the 1125R stock is good for that class, why not let Ducati put the 1098 stock in there and let it go....I will tell you why, because with a decent rider it would SMOKE that field. SMOKE IT. And Court..I will take your bet, DUCATI, hands down, buell is doing much better in their racing version's of their bikes, but Ducati is racing in WSBK, and recently in MOTOGP. So, now that I wrote this, I am sure I am no longer a buell enthusiast, in your opinion, nor do I read well, even with an MBA. Whatever Blake. I don't understand why any type of differing opinion seems to touch of some inner urge to personally attack someone because they don't agree with you or with rule CHANGES or with new series or promoters.....relax Blake...or don't....whatever.....Gotta go cause Ashley Fiolek is about to race on X Games, gotta pull for that girl from Florida...... |
Davegess
| | Posted on Saturday, August 01, 2009 - 09:58 pm: |
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Ducati was asked which bike they wanted to homologate for this class and THEY not DMG picked the 848. Don't ask me why. |
Blake
| | Posted on Saturday, August 01, 2009 - 11:15 pm: |
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Dentguy,
"For the record, I don't remember saying Buell got any unfair advantage due to some rule change and have no desire to belittle Buell. "
Your memory sucks, and your feigned indignation is a joke. You previously stated the following immediately after the slimy preface that "some may say"...
"Bending/rewriting the rules is okay as long as it helps Buell win an AMA Sportbike/Superbike championship."
You are a master at avoiding direct (honest) overt attack/insult. I'm not so sophisticated, and when I see such slimy tactics in operation, I call it as I see it.
When I see someone constantly piping in with petty little bring-downs, details, and comments like yours aimed at belittling the Buell Racing efforts and the Buell racing fans, and when I fail to detect a single expression of enthusiasm for same, well, there you go. Troll alert!
If you've made any enthusiastic posts lauding the Buell Racing efforts anywhere, I'll gladly stand corrected. If not, you lose. Why are you here?
I used to put up with such inane trollish nonsense here, but lately my fuse is spent. I think that is for the better of the place too. We don't need anyone to inform us poor unenlightened Buell enthusiasts that "some may say..." that "Bending/rewriting the rules is okay as long as it helps Buell win an AMA Sportbike/Superbike championship."
What is the purpose of such a pathetically inane comment like that? There is only one. Here's one in a similar vein for you... Some may say that people who write like that are petty little jackass trolls looking to sow disharmony and insult while trying to hide under the cloak of mere information provider. Now, I didn't say that, I'm just saying that some might say that.
What a miserable slimy little tactic that is. No, you didn't overtly belittle or attack Buell, you did so under cover of speaking for others and pretending to pass along their fictional thoughts. That's pathetic. I guess that works for you elsewhere. It won't work here. Not anymore.
Seriously. I absolutely despise slimy tactics and commentary like that. When I see it, especially when I see it repeated and then its obvious intent indignantly denied, I absolutely will make it personal.
I used to really enjoy visiting this site to join in fun and enthusiasm with fellow Buell enthusiasts. Not so much anymore. That's a serious problem. One I will soon rectify. There will be no appreciation here for nit picking petty little appraisals of our every comment.
You were given the benefit of doubt and were provided a respectful answer from the start that perfectly explained the issue. You ignored that and maintained your trollish course. You reap what you sow. |
Blake
| | Posted on Saturday, August 01, 2009 - 11:26 pm: |
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Liquor,
"why is it if anyone disagrees with you or makes a point contrary to YOUR point all of the sudden they cannot read or think?"
Would you care to reconsider that statement? It's veracity is poor as it implies that I characterize anyone with whom I disagree as unable to read or think.
Tell you what. If you care to stick with your words, you go find three examples that support your contention--hey, there's one right here--and I'll find ten that refute it. Will that then support your assertion or tend to refute it?
Replace "anyone" with "some" and you'd be accurate. The answer is that, well, you might understand, but... you no read good?  
As to my angst. See my above explanation. That and I'm just in a foul mood for various reasons. It happens sometimes. |
Blake
| | Posted on Saturday, August 01, 2009 - 11:29 pm: |
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As to your contention that "If the 1125R stock is good for that class, why not let Ducati put the 1098 stock in there and let it go....I will tell you why, because with a decent rider it would SMOKE that field. SMOKE IT."
I strongly disagree. We've seen the opposite in actual racing in Europe. 1125R's have beat a number of competently ridden 1098's. Not superbike spec machines, just plain old racing versions of the street bikes. You can find the reports in the Racing section. |
Liquorwhere
| | Posted on Sunday, August 02, 2009 - 12:23 am: |
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Blake,
No sir I wouldn't like to reconsider my statement, perception is reality and that is my perception of what I have read, of late, if I had to time to go through and find posts of you going off on someone, you could go through and find ones where you didn't, it isn't, that important to me, just couldn't figure out the tone of your post's recently, you seemed very angry and put out for some reason....look dude, you may be able to show the 1125 beating a 1098 somewhere and I would say awesome, because if you read my posts from the beginning of this season I have said that bike should be running with the big boys, but I do think that racing is still the rider....and while I don't agree the class it is in regarding DSport bike, I admire the way Eslick runs that bike around and I think when he has a bit more experience and his crew gets their hands on superbike components he will be a force on that bike...but just like Stoner can ride the wheels off the Duc in MotoGP, few others can tame that beast...it is still rider, and that is why I prefaced that statement with a decent rider..I should have written a rider that can handle that bike, would've been more clear and accurate. I hope your fuse gets a bit longer soon Blake, I have had many emailing's in the past with you and I know you are a intelligent and open minded guy INTERESTED in debate, just a word, debate sometimes has disention and that disention on a subject doesn't mean that a person had changed their mind about a bike they love....you know the deal Blake. Chill out a bit...it is all just opinions....I know the engineer in you wants fact fact fact...but there is room for opinion....Go ride tomorrow, I miss the riding in Texas...it will lengthen that fuse of yours
By the way the "you no read good" in your post was accurate to the way you presented it...and funny...good one bro. ">
(Message edited by liquorwhere on August 02, 2009)
(Message edited by liquorwhere on August 02, 2009) |
Dentguy
| | Posted on Sunday, August 02, 2009 - 11:09 am: |
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RW: It does seem that allowing in this bike as a completely different, race-only model designation that it bends, at best, and at worst breaks the wording of the homologation rule, and more than the wording the spirit of the rule, saying it must be a “street certified” model. Do you think it might have been better if a month ago you reworded the rule before approving this bike?
A question from Roadracing world to Roger Edmondson. I'm sure you've read it. That's the kind of stuff I was talking about when I said "some may say". No he didn't say it would help Buell win a championship, but he did talk about bending/breaking/rewriting rules.
Obviously, no matter what I say you are convinced that I'm not a Buell/Buell racing fan which I am. Just because I don't scream it from a mountain top to prove it to you doesn't make it not true.
You still continue to take my statement the wrong way, make it personal and want to try and belittle me. I'm guessing you'll do it again with this post. For the record, I have a great memory and am not dishonest.
It seems this has become a personal battle with you and I'm just not into the personal stuff. |
Blake
| | Posted on Sunday, August 02, 2009 - 11:19 am: |
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"No sir I wouldn't like to reconsider my statement"
That's unfortunate, on account of it is false.
"Perception is reality"
That is false. Reality and truth are not perception, they are fact; they are provable, and they are real. Perception may or may not be true or even real. Ever suffer the bedspins? Was your bed really spinning?
There is fact; there is opinion, and there is falsehood.
Fact is "Blake sometimes insults people who don't agree with him."
Opinion is, "I think Blake insults people just for disagreeing with him."
False is, "Blake insults anyone just for disagreeing with them."
If you can't find your way to reconsidering your statement that I attack anyone who I disagree with, a huge exaggeration rising to the level of falsehood, then could you at least learn to use paragraphs?
I absolutely agree that dissent does not necessarily indicate malevolent intent. I and the other custodians have to call it as we see it. In such cases we're not acting as just another contributor, we're mainly concerned with maintaining the highest integrity and good decorum of the forum here. Allowing what I call bring-down artists, the insidious weasels who inject their little deflating commentary into any thread where Buell is being discussed with enthusiasm, to have their way on BadWeB harms the forum and just plain irritates the heck out me.
I simply cannot stand to be around such people and I don't want them here polluting the place with their negative energy. YUCK!
I could be wrong about Dentguy, and if so I will apologize. If he can show me just one single commentary of his where he was lauding and enthusiastically talking about Buell racing or even just Buell motorcycles, I'll recant and apologize. I looked through his posts. I didn't find any. |
Blake
| | Posted on Sunday, August 02, 2009 - 12:27 pm: |
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Dentguy,
I reread our prior discussion. I've concluded that I was out of line in my estimation of your intent here. I read tone into your statements that likely wasn't intended, and I was way to touchy. My bad. Thanks for keeping to the high road.
As to the issue that you initially raised. First, that has been discussed already ad nauseam on BadWeB. The Buell 1125RR is legal as reviewed by AMA Pro Racing in consideration of it as a racing version of the 1125R no different from the racing version of any other serious Superbike entry. Who builds it and what they see fit to call it is not relevant. Nowhere in the rules is the origin of racing modification work or the naming of the racing version addressed or limited in any way.
So why was I employing the elongated description of the "Ducati 1198R F09 factory-built race-only WSBK racing machines"?
We're supposed to be here because we are all Buell enthusiasts, yes?
Well, some here recently took to lambasting Buell and AMA Pro Racing for the homologation of the Buell factory-built 1125RR AMA-SBK race-only Superbike racing machine, some even resorted to characterizing it as a "cheater bike".
That is a very unfortunate and miserable accusation to make. Coming from what are supposed to be Buell motorcycle enthusiasts, it is confounding. It gets worse. Those very same folks are apparently perfectly satisfied with the integrity of the WSBK grid and the even more unconventional situation there concerning FIM homologation of the Ducati factory built, race-only WSBK entries. My repeated referral to the Ducati factory-built race-only 1198R F09 was intended to put on display the hypocrisy of some of those folks.
On this site any bias if there is any should swing in favor of Buell, not to the point of dishonesty or even close to it, but just to the point of good old fashioned honest enthusiasm. Do you agree? Yes?
I hope that my explanation of the issue that you raised is clear enough to understand and I'm sorry that I didn't make it clearer from the outset.
BTW, the FIM has also homologated the new BMW factory-built, race-only WSBK racing machine well ahead of it ever showing up for retail sale or being seen on the road anywhere in post-production commercial/retail form.
But AMA Pro Racing allows the 1125RR a bike down some 20 HP on the competition and they are corrupt and in cahoots with Buell Racing? You have to have a serious bias against Buell racing to reach that kind of conclusion.
Why no Buell at the IOM TT? |
Smoke
| | Posted on Sunday, August 02, 2009 - 12:44 pm: |
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uh Blake, the opposition is claiming the opposite on HP, it's the Buell that is +20, hence the higher minimum weight than the IL4's. me, i think that the DSB and the American Sport Bike racing have been very competitive and entertaining when i was still awake to watch!
tim |
Smoke
| | Posted on Sunday, August 02, 2009 - 01:42 pm: |
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my bad Blake, i was thinking DSB and i think possibly that you were comparing the 1125 to the 1000cc IL4's where the 1125 would be down more than 20 hp. anyhow, Here's to good racing!
tim |
Blake
| | Posted on Sunday, August 02, 2009 - 02:38 pm: |
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Right, the 1125RR versus the AMA IL4 Superbikes. Actually it was 20 MPH through the trap at Mid-Ohio. I have no data on HP. |
Liquorwhere
| | Posted on Sunday, August 02, 2009 - 03:24 pm: |
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Blake,
I will work on the paragraphs. That was a good one, I do have a tendency to write it all in one block.
Sorry about that.
I will work on the appearance of my prose, and you are right, Blake sometimes insults people, so engineer, fact is fact. And I get why, I just sort of wish it wasn't necessary...although I am not immune, I have done it too....so I understand if someone gets under your skin. Just opinions ya know...opinions. Nothing more.
Hope you are in a better mood. I am, I just got back from a woods ride and my whole body is killing me soooooo good.
Have a good week.
Enjoy your day.
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Blake
| | Posted on Sunday, August 02, 2009 - 11:31 pm: |
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"I just sort of wish it wasn't necessary"
It may not be. I'm as flawed as anyone. Lately I just don't have much patience.
I had some dental work done about three weeks ago and it's still killing me. Been back twice since for minor adjustments to bite contacts. A three week long headache is tough to ignore. |
Gregtonn
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 04, 2009 - 03:22 am: |
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That explains some things.
Hope you're able to get things worked out.
G |
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