| Author |
Message |
    
Bott
| | Posted on Monday, July 06, 2009 - 02:54 pm: | 
|
Only saw the race on tv, but holy shizzle Eslick is one ballsy mofo! He was backing that thing in as well as Nicky Hayden ever did. That was an awesome effort,even tho it was nerve wracking to watch... musta been fantastic to be there |
Firemanjim
| | Posted on Monday, July 06, 2009 - 03:27 pm: |
|
Thomas, you are a dog. Definitely poor timing on my part.
And did you see where Eslick was forced off track in qualifying when 2 bikes crashed in front of him coming down the corkscrew? He rode the bike right through the deep gravel and just as he reached the tire wall,threw it sideways and used the tires to stop. He gave the gang at the Loveshack a thumbs up, and spun the tire all the way back onto the track. Very cool!! |
M2nc
| | Posted on Monday, July 06, 2009 - 06:28 pm: |
|
I watched some of the race on TV last night. I had to get up early for work so I missed the end. What a race. I also tracked the race on live timing and Eslick had the second fastest lap time of the race on lap 4. M4 rider and points leader had the fastest lap but only 1/10 better than Eslick's best time. I think he faired better than the Suzukis at the end. |
Slaughter
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 07, 2009 - 02:36 pm: |
|
Cluster F(expletive deleted) is the best expression that can be used to describe the situation for Superbike.
For once, I'm in agreement with Mladin.
They're lucky they didn't KILL any racers with the goddamm "safety" car hidden from view.
I STILL do not know what problem they thought they were solving by putting a pace car on the track during a yellow or red flag. Yeah, yeah, yeah,,, it's "MAZDA" raceway, all that crap -
Podium interview - Mladin describing the scene about 5:40 into the video:
http://roadracingworld.com/news/article/?article=3 7235
Schwantz also in another interview:
http://roadracingworld.com/news/article/?article=3 7236 |
Fresnobuell
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 07, 2009 - 10:19 pm: |
|
That was a crazy crazy race. Danny was riding with huge balls of steel. Anyone that has ridden Laguna Seca Turn 1 with wide open throttle knows exactly what I am referring too. Cork Screw be dammned, Turn 1 is the scariest part of Laguna, followed by Rainey Curve. The battles all the way down to Turn 2, then Danny backing the Buell in, were simply breath taking. Well done Danny. |
Paint_shaker
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 07, 2009 - 11:40 pm: |
|
I just watched my DVR of the race...
WOW!!! That was some awesome racing!!!!
All the racers were riding like crazy!!
Now, if they would just do away with the safety car/bike and the rolling starts... |
Redbuelljunkie
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 08, 2009 - 12:48 pm: |
|
I watched the original broadcast on Speed, I was not at the race, and I did not record it- but the interview with the AMA official backs up some things I was thinking while watching the race. From what I saw, it appeared riders were ignoring the yellow, safety car, and red flags. Immediately after the crash, it was obvious that yellow flags were displayed in that corner, and racing continued. Shortly after this, I could see yellow flags in other corners and the safety car with lights on preparing to enter the track. Then they showed the red flag, yet at the same time it appeared that the bikes had not slowed down much at all on the track. The next shot I saw was the safety car on track with the leaders passing it, and I thought to myself- "why are they passing the safety car?". After this you could see the riders, obviously perturbed, waving to the safety car to catch up and pass them, and I was thinking- "why in the heck did you pass it in the first place?".
I don't have the answers, but it does not appear (from what I saw) that the cluster was solely the fault of race control.
(Message edited by redbuelljunkie on July 08, 2009) |
Slaughter
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 08, 2009 - 07:56 pm: |
|
yellow flags mean the race IS continuing and continuing FULL THROTTLE - just exercise caution. Passing is OK and is EXPECTED at FULL THROTTLE.
Waving yellow means no passing. Everybody is STILL RACING under a waving yellow - nobody - and I mean NOBODY is slowing down on a waving yellow - it is a RACE.
Double waving yellow is supposed to mean the "safety" car on the track but trust me, at race speed, I doubt that every rider can be counted on to SEE the first flag they come to... and if you want to STOP THE RACE - throw the RED. Done. End of problem.
SCREW TV coverage, bring the racers back alive - even if you have to extend the race beyond the scheduled TV time slot. |
Fresnobuell
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 08, 2009 - 08:28 pm: |
|
Maybe they need anther color to denote the safety car/bike situation. It would mean to roll out of the throttle and reduce speed gradually to safety car/bike speeds, hopefully before they arrive at said safety car/bike. To me, it would be more effective to see a completely different color than two yellows waiving.
(Message edited by fresnobuell on July 08, 2009) |
Slaughter
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 08, 2009 - 08:36 pm: |
|
They are trying to solve a non-problem. IF they are trying to keep the total race time to within a certain time limit because of TV schedule then throw the red, bring them in and keep the clock running while you clear the track.
The car has no place on the motorcycle road race track... neither does the pace bike for that matter (sorry Buell)
I just don't see that pulling everybody down to such slow speeds (and letting the tires cool down) does anything for safety.
Yeah... maybe lights on the dash... maybe maybe maybe... I'm just not sure what "problem" they THINK they solved with the "safety" car thing. |
Court
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 08, 2009 - 08:44 pm: |
|
How hard would it be to have an onboard "heads up" indication? |
Slaughter
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 08, 2009 - 09:02 pm: |
|
A light could work but it still relies on track-side radio or IR communication. What if the bike falls and the rider gets back on to race but the light is busted?
It's hard to beat flags for reliability IF you're serious about it (getting GOOD corner marshals) |
Metalstorm
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 08, 2009 - 11:26 pm: |
|
Whats this I hear about riders and crew will be required to run head sets/radios in the not too distant future??
We're moving away from the K.I.S.S. rule faster than a speeding race bike. |
Bigblock
| | Posted on Thursday, July 09, 2009 - 02:06 am: |
|
who the he!! is looking at their DASH at race speeds?!?!?!? |
Slojon
| | Posted on Thursday, July 09, 2009 - 08:55 am: |
|
+1 SLAUGHTER/METALSTORM- I began as a Cornerworker at DAYTONA back in the day...almost all of us were volunteers and appears is heading back to that. Bad sign. After my on track experiences in AMA series I view current events skeptically. Pace Car/Bike will go away AFTER a tragedy occurs. We are foolish to see obvious. HOPEFULLY I am wrong.... |
Ceejay
| | Posted on Thursday, July 09, 2009 - 09:28 am: |
|
mid-ohio was a joke last year. one guy blew his motor and before a corner worker heeded the riders gestures and well after the rider got off track 3 more guys came through, went down, took out the hay bales(probably should be an airfence there). One guy was even knocked out and got hit by another tumbling bike. The only thing that would have helped would be more/better corner workers, a pace car/bike wouldn't have done a thing.
I don't see how attentive corner workers can be beat. shoot you could pay them what it costs for the car(which probably is free due to sponsorship, but you still have to gas it, shod it and pay someone to drive it). |
Slaughter
| | Posted on Thursday, July 09, 2009 - 11:17 am: |
|
Ray (BigBlock) is absolutely correct. The ONLY place to put a light is on the windscreen, NOT on the dash. It has to be visible in your peripheral vision. |
Paint_shaker
| | Posted on Thursday, July 09, 2009 - 02:02 pm: |
|
Slaughter said it best;
"yellow flags mean the race IS continuing and continuing FULL THROTTLE - just exercise caution. Passing is OK and is EXPECTED at FULL THROTTLE.
Waving yellow means no passing. Everybody is STILL RACING under a waving yellow - nobody - and I mean NOBODY is slowing down on a waving yellow - it is a RACE."
I'll further say that I have seen riders check up so fast for a waving yellow, they have been passed. I've seen the same thing with the red flag.
IMO the incident at Laguna was due more to track design than any other factor. You have to account for the reaction time of the corner workers onscene, the time it takes them to notify race control, the reaction time of the other corner stations, and the speed at which the racers are travelling.
Radios might not even have helped in this situation because there will still be some delay. |
Slaughter
| | Posted on Friday, July 10, 2009 - 12:02 am: |
|
Pic of Blake Young attempting to signal to riders following that the freaking "safety" van was freaking PARKED on the track up ahead!
He is SLOWED to about 100 MPH right at the crest of the hill (normally accelerating through about 130 right there) - and about 20 yards from impacting the "safety" van. Mladin and the pack was a half second behind.
Still scares me to have seen it and tried to figure it all out.
 |
Fresnobuell
| | Posted on Friday, July 10, 2009 - 01:18 am: |
|
So there's no video of this incident? |
Slaughter
| | Posted on Friday, July 10, 2009 - 11:05 am: |
|
There are some screen shots of the TV coverage but NONE of the actual van until the "parade" started. From where the SPEED cameras were shooting around the track, I believe the van wasn't even visible until it pulled ahead from where it had parked.
There are some links to those images somewhere... I'll see if I can find the discussion (on one of the racing boards IIRC) |
Slaughter
| | Posted on Friday, July 10, 2009 - 11:27 am: |
|
Found some from our WSMC racing discussions on the subject.
SBK dust-up:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lV-b2pJkw4
On-board of the car deployment
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lV-b2pJkw4
Yellow flag waving in T10:
Not quite a "rider's view" - but close as they exit 11 and accelerate up the front straight:
Image taken with the "safety" car behind the camera, just over the ridge (note, NO DOUBLE YELLOW flags):
Mladin giving the "safety" car the finger:
I still state that IF there's a hazard that requires a vehicle to be on the track, throw the red, bring them in. Don't do "parade laps" letting everybody's tires cool off and everybody bunch up. |
Davegess
| | Posted on Friday, July 10, 2009 - 11:57 am: |
|
I have been to a race or two and even done some rather bad flagging and I have to say I see no reason why on a road course you have a safety car or bike. The current flaging conventions should cover any situation. If it so dangerous that the riders need to slow way down all th eway around the track that throw the red. They are trying to solve a problem that does not exist.
I am generally happy with DMG but I think the NASCAR influence is overwhelming the common sense in this case. |
Slaughter
| | Posted on Friday, July 10, 2009 - 01:18 pm: |
|
quote:quote: Davegess
They are trying to solve a problem that does not exist.
EXACTLY! |
Rocketsprink
| | Posted on Friday, July 10, 2009 - 03:26 pm: |
|
I say their trying to turn it into NASbIKE and throw in "something differnt" than the other bike series. As Dave said, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. |
Slaughter
| | Posted on Friday, July 10, 2009 - 03:34 pm: |
|
The best I can hear from people trying to defend the NA$CAR-ifying of moto racing in the USA is that "British Superbike uses the safety car."
I'd be curious to get Matt's take on it since they've run the cars for a couple years now... and get a take on how it compared to simple flagging... and also, WHY they felt the need to go to the use of "safety" cars. |
Redbuelljunkie
| | Posted on Friday, July 10, 2009 - 07:10 pm: |
|
The best I can hear from people trying to defend the NA$CAR-ifying of moto racing in the USA is that "British Superbike uses the safety car."
I'd be curious to get Matt's take on it since they've run the cars for a couple years now... and get a take on how it compared to simple flagging... and also, WHY they felt the need to go to the use of "safety" cars.
You are getting closer to understanding the philosophy behind DMG, but here's a hint- it's not NASCAR based. While it is true that many people involved with Daytona Motorsports Group have a NASACR background, AMA/DMG is associated with Grand Am Road Racing (owned by ISC) which is a European-style sports car series. Therefore, the safety car is more closely related to British Superbike than it is to NASCAR.
I have often been surprised by the lack of cross-pollenization between car racing and motorcycle racing fans. I was an endurance sports car racing fan long before getting interested in motorcycles, and was therefore happy to see DMG get involved with the AMA- they do a great job with Grand Am Road Racing. So many things I see DMG doing have been done "forever" in both European and American road racing, therefore it's nothing new to me. I do understand, however, that if people are unfamiliar with European-style sports car/endurance road racing these changes are hard to understand/accept.
Yes, I realize that motorcycle racing is different, but I believe this is more an issue of a new series, new rules, new safety procedures, new philosophy, and a strong sanctioning body. Mix this with what has traditionally been a series run by the manufacturers and strong-willed riders (who are used to ruling the sandbox), and strange things happen. I am not claiming that AMA/DMG are doing everything right, nor do I claim that everything is as safe as it could be (never has been). I do think, though, that everyone involved needs to realize that things have changed, and the sooner everyone accepts it, works positively to help smooth out the rough edges, and stops comparing everything to how it used to be, the situation will improve. What may seem strange to many who are unfamiliar with it does not make it strange, safety cars have been used safely (with motorcycles too) for many, many years... I'm sure we are capable of doing the same.
(Message edited by redbuelljunkie on July 10, 2009) |
José_quiñones
| | Posted on Friday, July 10, 2009 - 11:19 pm: |
|
There are various reasons that they want to use a safety car/bike. The WERA forum is a great source of info on this issue.
1. It keeps the field on the track, which for a fan is better to see some bikes going around the track every few minutes than wait 30 minutes for a complete restart.
2. For TV purposes, if they were on live TV a safety car/bike would keep the race closer to schedule than a full red flag. I know they are not on live right now but if they can show they can keep to a schedule it makes it easier to go live in the future.
3. A second full standing start (in the case of Superbike) is beyond the capabilities of some of the clutches some of the top teams use. Ever tried to replace a hot clutch in a hurry? Keeping the bikes on the track avoids this and other issues related to going back to the pits (working/fueling bikes in the pits whey they are not allowed to)
After watching the race on TV, I think the the biggest problem was that the riders were not seeing the flags and the safety car sign.
The best solution I have heard is to use the RED flag, get everyone slowed down and once the riders go to the pits, either stop completely if the situation is bad enough, or pick up the safety car/bike at the end of the pits and head back out for some parade laps until they are ready to race again. That way you avoid what happened at Laguna. |
Jimidan
| | Posted on Saturday, July 11, 2009 - 11:05 am: |
|
I realize that motorcycle racing is different, but I believe this is more an issue of a new series, new rules, new safety procedures, new philosophy, and a strong sanctioning body.
Dude, the safety car was on the track and in the jeopardy of being struck by the approaching racing motorcycles. That is why Matt was throwing them the bird. It could have been disastrous. This has little to do with racing philosophy or a strong sanctioning body.
Jose has the voice of reason here...as usual. |
Redbuelljunkie
| | Posted on Saturday, July 11, 2009 - 12:17 pm: |
|
Dude,
As I clearly stated in my earlier post, I was not there, I only saw the original broadcast, and I have only seen some video and pictures since, but I believe it's more a case of riders not being used to having a safety car. The safety car was dispatched and riders passed it- no one should pass the safety car unless instructed to do so. I also believe the egos and resulting animosity played into this too- many riders seem be telling the officials what they think they should being doing, instead of doing what they're told- that's a sure recipe for disaster. Safety car= racing philosophy, strong sanctioning body= enforcing rules that many may not like (fear of change).
I was not there, I don't have all the facts, I am only giving my opinion based upon the information I have seen. I am not taking sides here, I want to see the safest, most competitive racing available. I do not, however, think it is wise or justified to place all the blame on AMA/DMG- there's more to it than that. |
Paint_shaker
| | Posted on Sunday, July 12, 2009 - 02:14 pm: |
|
The following opinion is based on MY racing experience. Yours may vary..
I don't care how they do it in Europe... I don't care how they do it in NASCAR... The safety car (as deployed by AMA/DMG) is gonna get someone seriously injured or killed. It's not about arrogant riders thumbing their noses either.
The way it happened at Laguna was insane!!! There could have been a HUGE wreck had the leaders jammed on the brakes to stay behind the saftey car, while those just behind them are head down, with no view except motorcyles in front of them and accellerating.
Maybe if DMG/AMA figures out how to more safely deploy the "safety" car, it will be better. Who knows... |
Slaughter
| | Posted on Sunday, July 12, 2009 - 02:25 pm: |
|
What HE said ^
(Message edited by slaughter on July 12, 2009) |
Macdiver
| | Posted on Sunday, July 12, 2009 - 06:01 pm: |
|
According to the post above, double waving yellow means the safety car is deployed. From the pictures, there is only one yellow flag waving. If two flags means the car is out, then the officials should have everyone waving two flags before the car moves from its parking spot.
I finally watched the races friday night. What I saw was pretty scary, full speed around a turn while the safety car pulls onto the track. Not good. |
Ibppjr
| | Posted on Monday, July 13, 2009 - 01:29 pm: |
|
All the blame is on whoever told that car to park over the hill and not join the track in the safe area beyond turn two.
Egos play no factor here on the racers part. The picture of Blake above perfectly signals the intensity of the situation. I've spent a lot of hours at Laguna Seca watching Superbikes crest that turn 1 hill...the officials were wrong in this case.
I believe that we race fans should play a part in this as well, by letting the AMA/DMG know our feelings on putting racers in harms way with these stupid pace cars. |
|
