| Author | Message | ||
     M1combat |
Oh... Sounds good to me then  . This website is excellent. Right up there with (or better than) Corner-Carvers.com. | ||
| Court |
<<thud>> Can he be fined for that? | ||
| José_quiñones |
The Softail/Vrod system is better than the Buell system for a few reasons: 1. Manifold Air Pressure Sensor: this lets the FI react more accurately for the loads imposed on the engine and can handle small air leaks. The Buell system gets thrown off by intake leaks. 2. Anti Knock sensor. 3. You can BUY the Screaming Eagle Reprogramming Software, HD/Buell won't sell a Buell version I could go on but I won't DDFI is good (better in 2004 than it was in 1999) but the Softail/Vrod system is better. | ||
| Buckinfubba |
3. "You can BUY the Screaming Eagle Reprogramming Software, HD/Buell won't sell a Buell version " and there in lies the only real problem with the buell system. once again I ain't so sure I would blame buell so much on this. I would as usual have to go at the purse strings of HD. corporate meeting: "lets make performance systems for big fat slow bikes that some weekend warriors will spend all there money on just to make their big fat slow bike just a hair faster, not that they'll ever ride it farther than their favorite watering hole." lowly buell emp. in the back of the room says... well you know we have a performance bike that alot of the customers would love to have that kind of flexibilty in hopping up their bikes. corprate wank says.....Buell hmmmm maybe we should....but on second thought nope. Because in our minds the buells are just the customers entry in to Harley davidson motorcycle. they aren't really motorcycles, they are just price points. so we will spend no more money on them then we have to. and so the sga rolls on | ||
| Austinrider |
LOL  Entry point. HA HA HA. I would never buy a bike that Said "Harley Davidson" on the tank. Not my kind of bike. Anon - Hope you get to feeling better. Thanks for the marvelous ride in the XB | ||
| Henrik |
Court; you're spot on - there absolutely should be a fine for imposing actual facts on us, when we were having a perfectly good fictional discussion  Thanks Anony Henrik | ||
| M1combat |
Who was having a fictional discussion Henrik? | ||
| Blake |
The Softail/Vrod system is better than the Buell system for a few reasons: 1. Manifold Air Pressure Sensor: this lets the FI react more accurately for the loads imposed on the engine and can handle small air leaks. The Buell system gets thrown off by intake leaks. JQ, Are you certain of this or are you guessing as part of your relentless effort to discredit Buell? I say you are guessing. How does a manifold air pressure sensor operate accurately in the highly transient conditions at low speed and idle (where an intake leak most affects engine performance)? How does a manifold pressure sensor help adjust for an intake leak on one cylinder but not the other? How is it better to surmise the state of mixture/combustion via intake pressure versus actually sensing the state of combustion via O2 sensor? 2. Anti Knock sensor. What's better than an EFI system that can adjust for knocking/predetonation? Answer... An engine that doesn't knock. Buell XBs don't knock. "3. You can BUY the Screaming Eagle Reprogramming Software, HD/Buell won't sell a Buell version " That is inaccurate information, or as some would say, "fictional." Please, do go on. We're all ears. | ||
| Henrik |
Don; hackles down friend Only a "tongue-firmly-in-cheek" waste-of-space comment, referring to how we sometimes happily wander off on a tangent of "what if's" and "How about this for an idea". Not gunning for anything or anyone  Henrik edited by Henrik on March 05, 2004 | ||
| Buckinfubba |
blake I think on the software thingy he is talking about the screamin eagle race tuner. | ||
| M1combat |
Oh no problem... I was just looking through and wondering what triggered it... No trouble . | ||
| José_quiñones |
Blake I have had 5 years/40,000 miles of Experience with DDFI, and I'm not guessing, intake leaks throw the system off. I would have 60k on it if the bike was more reliable. It's funny, you can find faults in the system, but if I find faults, based on actual experience, I'm Guessing? YOU ARE FULL OF SHIT. ___________________________________ Bubba's right, I was talking about the Screaming Eagle Race Tuner software, available for Softails/Vrods, but not BUELLS. Instead of fiddling with it at home, I have to go to the dealer whenever the FI acts up, like it did today. | ||
| Court |
The VROD Software is, I'd guess, little more than a video game. I know 3 of the folks involved in the development of the mapping for the Buell system and the chances of you doing any better than they did, or being more passionately driven to extract performance, are slim. In addition, I'd certainly be reluctant to offer any software that would allow someone to create maps that would potentially damage the engine or cause injury to the rider. My *GUESS* is that any software from the factory may allow you to "tinker" but that you are going to be allowed a very small playground to play on. We've recently seen an "optimized", "computer modeled", "to heck with the E.P.A." version of the velocity stack was, well in the end, as good as the stock one. That speak volumes. As matter of civil discussion (I lack Blake's tolerance for comments like the one above) if you did NOT have to go to the dealer and you had all the latitude in the world with your DDFI system what, specifically would you have done? It's a serious question and I'm betting you could do better than most dealers, I'm really just curious. Court | ||
| Dynarider |
Reading up on that software, its available for the V-rod & the twin cam FI bikes. Cost is $459 & from all apearances its basically a power commander type setup, only instead of a separate unit you change the settings in the stock box. You can tune & then you have access to charts which show you exactly what you changed & what it will do in regards to performance. | ||
| Anonymous |
The emissions numbers and the performance speak for themselves. The Buell XB12 DDFI system is as good as it gets. Quit whining about ancient history, Jose...I'll match up an early Buell DDFI against the Harley-Davidson EFI of the same era, and the current Buell DDFI against the current H-D one. They are all good, it's just that the current XB delivers perfect performance and better emissions. And, DDFI will handle a small amount of air leak better than the H-D version. And, if you have a freakin' air leak, get it fixed...don't expect the fuel injection system to fix it, duh! | ||
| Blake |
"Blake I have had 5 years/40,000 miles of Experience with DDFI, and I'm not guessing, intake leaks throw the system off. I would have 60k on it if the bike was more reliable. It's funny, you can find faults in the system, but if I find faults, based on actual experience, I'm Guessing? YOU ARE FULL OF SHIT." Well, I guess that ends that discussion, at least as far as you are concerned. Still my question goes unanswered. I of course KNOW that an intake leak can throw off the DDFI on a Buell. My questions were quite clear but you answered none of them in your little tirade. So I'll pose them again... 1. How does a manifold air pressure sensor operate accurately in the highly transient conditions at low speed and idle (where an intake leak most affects engine performance)? 2. How does a manifold pressure sensor help adjust for an intake leak on one cylinder but not the other? 3. How is it better to surmise the state of mixture/combustion via intake pressure versus actually sensing the state of combustion via O2 sensor? 4. In other words, please explain how exactly an EFI system utilizing a manifold pressure sensor would provide ANY advantage over a DDFI system. And the HD Screaming Eagle EFI tuning... That is for off road use only. But maybe you'd like to show me all the Japanese motorcycles or ANY automobiles that offer a tunable EFI system that you can access yourself at home. Such things are for racing and the EPA doesn't want them in your home. Just like Buell Racing doesn't want a bunch of streetbike running around in traffic with a full race fairing and/or belly pan. You know, sometimes I am full of it, and if I am I deserve to be told so. However, if one sees fit to proclaim so in a public forum, they are expected to at least provide some evidence to support their accusation. To not do so would most likely mean that the accuser, you, rather than the accusee, me, is the one acting as a vessel brimming with feces. Have nice day JQ. Blake | ||
| Court |
>>>I'm not guessing, intake leaks throw the system off. "Eggs and golf balls" from Logic 101. Citing an air leak as cause for a deficiency in the DDFI is like blaming putting down the top on the convertible on a hot summer day and then pissin' and moaning about the air conditioner being "unreliable". I'm full of shit a LOT of the time and even I, Badweb's token construction worker, can figure that one out. Court edited by court on March 07, 2004 | ||
| Bud |
me think that a map. sensor is a little bitch to set up with all the pos./ neg. pulses going through the manifold gr,b | ||
| Smitty |
JQ quote"YOU ARE FULL OF SHIT." Dude with statements like that credibility goes down. You have always added to posts with good points and a different perspective but that comment was not needed. Tim | ||
| José_quiñones |
Now that was my opinion expressed earlier in this topic, Someone asked for faults in the DDFI system, Blake gave some, then I gave some. I could have given others based on Experience like "it won't start without the throttle in the winter" or "the wiring harness was wound up so tight and had so many kinks in the 99 models that the wires can break inside due to the vibration" but I did not. As to the manifold air pressure sensor (MAP), the current HD system uses both a throttle position sensor (TPS) and a MAP sensor in addition to engine speed to determine engine load, three sensors. HD did figure out how how to measure it even with the weird pulses caused by a 45 degree V-twin with a single manifold. The Buell system only has the TPS and the engine speed. It only know how much air is going in based on those two sensors. Obviously an air leak will let more air in that the ECM thinks is coming in based only on the throttle opening and engine speed. That's the condensed version, but Steve Anderson explained it in more detail in the 2001 Issue of "Cycle World's Power and Performance Harley Davidson"
So, Buell VDO supplied DDFI is an two sensor Alpha N system like the old system used in the FL's. The new Softail system is a three sensor Speed Density system. You can kid yourself all you want, but the Speed Density/Three sensor system is better and it addresses "deficiencies" of the current Buell DDFI system. Of course its more probably expensive, but when you put it in 40 plus thousand bikes a year compared to 6 thousand, maybe you can put it in those 6 thousand bikes at a small extra cost and for the benefit of the techs at the dealerships so they only have to work on one system, and to the benefit of the Buell owners when the tuning software available to HD owners would be available to them also. But that makes sense, which is why it's not done. Again like I said earlier and I reposted above, DDFI is good, but the HD/Vrod system is better. I stand by that opinion, and Blake is still full of it. | ||
| Blake |
That was a good reply containing some pertinent factual information. However, let's review my questions... 1. How does a manifold air pressure sensor operate accurately in the highly transient conditions at low speed and idle (where an intake leak most affects engine performance)? Your answer is that HD figured out how to do so. Well, case closed then.  Apparently they figured it out so well, that they need to run a catalytic converter to meet current emissions regulations. Buell and their DDFI? And furthermore, the MAP sensor would need to be downstream from the location of any manifold leakage in order to be able to have any corrective effect. That is not an issue with an O2 sensor. 2. How does a manifold pressure sensor help adjust for an intake leak on one cylinder but not the other? No answer. 3. How is it better to surmise the state of mixture/combustion via intake pressure versus actually sensing the state of combustion via O2 sensor? No answer. The answer is that it is not better. The O2 sensor is the single absolute best sensor/indicator of the state of combustion and air/fuel mixture in the engine. All automobiles use O2 sensors. 4. In other words, please explain how exactly an EFI system utilizing a manifold pressure sensor would provide ANY advantage over a DDFI system. Not answered. And further to your new points raised in your argument that the VRod EFI system is superior to DDFI... "Obviously an air leak will let more air in that the [DDFI] ECM thinks is coming in based only on the throttle opening and engine speed. Conveniently neglecting the existance of an O2 sensor makes your point sound valid. But there is this O2 sensor thing providing information to the ECM on the state of carburetion in a Buell.  "The Buell system only has the TPS and the engine speed. It only know how much air is going in based on those two sensors." You apparently forgot about the intake air temperature sensor. "So, Buell VDO supplied DDFI is an two sensor Alpha N system like the old system used in the FL's." Uh, no. Again, you conveniently forget about the O2 sensor. "Again like I said earlier and I reposted above, DDFI is good, but the HD/Vrod system is better. I stand by that opinion, and Blake is still full of it." I'm not seeing that, especially since you've not shown one thing I've offered in this discussion to be in error. So "like I sad earlier"... You know, sometimes I am full of it, and if I am I deserve to be told so. However, if one sees fit to proclaim so in a public forum, they are expected to at least provide some evidence to support their accusation. To not do so would most likely mean that the accuser, you José, rather than the accusee, me, is the one acting as a vessel brimming with feces. Have nice day JQ. Blake | ||
| Wyckedflesh |
So Jose, when are you converting to the HD system? | ||
| Darthane |
1. How does a manifold air pressure sensor operate accurately in the highly transient conditions at low speed and idle (where an intake leak most affects engine performance)? Your answer is that HD figured out how to do so. Well, case closed then. Apparently they figured it out so well, that they need to run a catalytic converter to meet current emissions regulations. Buell and their DDFI? And furthermore, the MAP sensor would need to be downstream from the location of any manifold leakage in order to be able to have any corrective effect. <~~Blake Not true. An intake leak anywhere in the system would affect the air pressure everywhere within the system. An absolute pressure sensor would be able to measure the change in intake pressure due to a leak further downstream. "The Buell system only has the TPS and the engine speed. It only knows how much air is going in based on those two sensors." <~~Jose You apparently forgot about the intake air temperature sensor. <~~Blake A small thing, but I can't let it pass - an IAT has absolutely nothing to do with the volume of air entering the engine. It is exactly what its name says, a temp sensor. A MAPS would handle incoming air pressure. As Blake also said, though, the FI Buells have O2 sensors, which, while they cannot tell how much air is going IN the engine, do report how much is coming back OUT (at least for the rear cylinder), thus changing the map accordingly. Bryan edited by darthane on March 07, 2004 | ||
| Blake |
Not true. An intake leak anywhere in the system would affect the air pressure everywhere within the system. An absolute pressure sensor would be able to measure the change in intake pressure due to a leak further downstream." Yes exactly! The pressure sensor upstream of an intake air leak would see an increase in pressure and tell the ECM to reduce the amount of fuel being supplied. That is exactly opposite of what is required. The bike would run lean. If you cannot see that, imagine the extreme case... a completely dead intake, throttle closed with a HUGE leak aft of the throttle. With the intake pressure reading virtually equal to 1 atmosphere, the ECM would think that the bike was idling and supply and amount of fuel accordingly. But due to the leak the amount of air entering the combustion chamber exceeds greatly that small amount required for idling. The bike would run extremely lean. "A small thing, but I can't let it pass - an IAT has absolutely nothing to do with the volume of air entering the engine." Really? Ever heard of PV=mRT? You know that pesky little law of Physics? With all else being equal, lower temperature equals more air. | ||
| Smitty |
The fuel economy, derivability, emissions confirm Anonymous earlier post the XB DDFI is indeed correct for this application. Is there a better alternative? Maybe I don’t know and I don’t think any of the people posting know either. I’m sure the people behind the scenes are working on future systems for future Buells. Thanks Mr. Buell. | ||
| Benm2 |
The MAP & the O2 sensor do not do the same thing. Engines need to respond quickly to inputs (throttle) more quickly than they get information back (O2 sensor). O2 sensors are used for trim, the base maps are set from inputs (MAP, throttle position, mass air flow, rpm sensor, etc) Blake, why is your first question relevant? The buell engine only has (1) O2 sensor, so wouldn't it be subject to the same failure conditions? (in the event of an intake leak) Also, the computer needs to know when to (1) ignore the O2 sensor (acceleration & idle) and when its information is bull (bad o2 sensor). The info from the O2 sensor is useful at steady-state, light-load conditions. Under acceleration, the info arrives a bit late to the party, and the setpoints come from the input sensors, no? Um, PV = nRT ben | ||
| Darthane |
Blake, My point still stands - the IAT does NOT measure pressure, ONLY temperature. It is entirely possible to get the same amount of pressure with varying air temps. Therefore to get an accurate intake pressure you need a MAPS coupled with an IAT. To really mix things up you should also have a MAFS, which measures the volume of airflow through the intake tract. You are correct, though, all other things being equal (which we all know never happens), colder air will be denser than warmer air. As for the other point, I'm not arguing whether it would necessarily respond correctly in the above situation, just that it WOULD respond. I'm going to step back and second Court's statement, though. If you really have an intake leak, I personally would NOT want the DDFI to 'account' for it. I'd much rather have it act up, forcing me to investigate and fix the leak. Bryan | ||
| Blake |
Ben, "Blake, why is your first question relevant? The buell engine only has (1) O2 sensor, so wouldn't it be subject to the same failure conditions? (in the event of an intake leak)" Yes! And... PV=mrT too. Either way, I screwed up in my post. Good catch on that. You may be correct about the delayed feedback programming wrt the O2 sensor, but I don't know. The ECM certainly could react to the O2 sensor reading just as quicly as a pressure sensor. What's the difference? Are you saying it takes to long for the O2 sensor to react to a change in the exhaust mixture? I don't think so. The programming I can see. And the fact that the ECM is not always reading the O2 sensor. Do other systems always continuously read the intake pressure sensor? I don't know that either. All I know is that to state that another sytem is better than the DDFI system, when the DDFI on XB's is hands down one of the best performing systems in the industry, well, I don't see the logic in stating that another system is "better" especially when the "other system" requires a catalytic converter to pass current EPA regulations. Bryan, Dude, please. You are not being honest here. You originally said... "I can't let it pass - an IAT has absolutely nothing to do with the volume of air entering the engine." But it indeed does, very much so. That is why it's there. Then you say... "My point still stands - the IAT does NOT measure pressure" Huh? Who said ANYTHING about the IAT measuring pressure???  "An intake leak anywhere in the system would affect the air pressure everywhere within the system." Yes. No one has implied otherwise. "An absolute pressure sensor would be able to measure the change in intake pressure due to a leak further downstream." Yes. No one has argued otherwise. However, in stating "would be able to" you imply that the pressure sensor in detecting/reporting the change (drop) in pressure, would help to correct for the problem. The opposite is true. On the IAT issue, I merely pointed out that the intake pressure sensor is not the only sensor required to ascertain the "volume" of air entering the engine. The ECM also needs to know the air temperature. Temperature has a significant effect on the density and thus volume of air entering the engine. "all other things being equal (which we all know never happens)..." Consider that when you get up in the early morning and take off on a ride it is cold; then through the day the temperature rises by 30o under constant barometric pressure. Except for temperature, all other things pertinent to the DDFI system are remaining pretty much unchanged, or "equal" to the conditions in the morning. "All else being equal" is not as rare a condition as you might think. Not to mention that it is the basis for scientific investigation. This is great discussion, but as you imply it is a bit of silly mental masturbation. I agree, if your intake develops a leak, you want the bike to let you know. | ||
| Wyckedflesh |
Combine the IAT info with the O2 sensor info along with the CHT sensor and the TPS that apparently is enough for the DDFI to look alphabet soupfigure out the missing element...the pressure. Apperently changes happen fast enough that the system has to sample multiple times PER SECOND to keep on top of them. We have no clue how sensative the IAT is. It could be sensative enough that a 1° drop or raise in intake temp equates to a 5lb raise or drop in pressure due to the "windchill" of the air passing the sensor. That is basically what an MAF sensor did. Temp sampled the drop in temperature of a heated wire to figure out how much air passed. Who is to say that when the system does its little self diagnostic when you first turn on the run switch its not sampling the conditions and setting a baseline reading. It measure the temp of the air sitting in the airbox and says "ok its 75° and the engine isn't running" then when you start the bike and the air starts moving as it idles it reads it again and says "ok its now 73° at idle so it is moving X amount of air because the temp dropped 2°" Then when you crack the throttle or take off it keeps sampling and as the temp drops or raises it decides based on the temp how much air it passed. Now that is suppossition but it does make you wonder. | ||
| Darthane |
LOL...I think we're both misunderstanding each other a bit here. All I meant when I said it was that an IAT does not measure pressure. True statement. It measures temperature. The fact that temperature has an effect on density and thus pressure is not in dispute (at least by me). What prompted the original statement was this series: "The Buell system only has the TPS and the engine speed. It only knows how much air is going in based on those two sensors." <~~Jose You apparently forgot about the intake air temperature sensor. <~~Blake When I read that I took it as implying that the IAT reports on the VOLUME of air going into the intake, since that is what Jose was referring to in his statement, which yours was a response to. An IAT, acting on its own but with good programming data in the ECM, can certainly help the ECM determine the volume and pressure of air in the airbox. All the SENSOR is doing, though, is reporting the temperature. If the Buell Boys did their homework (and I've no doubt at all that they did), then the ECM can determine intake volume based on a set algorithm (presumably something near sea level out of the box) coupled with IAT input. Now, the only thing better than that would be to include a MAPS, because then the ECM can quickly react to pressure changes rather than waiting on the O2 data to affect the preset algorithm map. However, unless you do a lot of wild elevation changes or enjoy riding through hurricanes and into the eyes, I doubt you would see any increase in engine performance over the current setup. There's generally no need for the system to assimilate data that quickly. Can you tell I'm bored today? I usually keep my nose out of this stuff...LOL Bryan |
