| Author | Message | ||
     Buellnick |
The local dealer changed one part (relief valve) with no change. Then the dealer got the OK to change out the oil pump parts. The bike started holding oil for a while longer - long enough to measure. Now the oil is once again running back into the motors immediately upon shut-down. I start it back up for about a minute, shut it down, and then check oil level. I have found this to be the most consistent way to check the oil. I can actually get duplicate dipstick readings this way. GO to your local dealer or the factory techs and tell them this is a known issue and that it is unacceptable. Don't listen to any excuses or apologies. Ill betaking mine back in for another look-see real soon. | ||
| Bigthumper |
Jlivick, If I were you, I would talk to your dealer and get them to call the factory on this. It seems that was how Buellnick got his issue looked at. Who knows maybe if they hear about it enough, they'll take a look at it. Squeaky wheel gets the oil, right? | ||
| Spdrxb |
OK here is my 2 cents on the issue. I have a 08 12s. I have also had a hard time getting a consistent oil reading but this is what i have figured out. If you follow manual to the "t" it says run engine for 10 minutes leave on side stand and check.Does that mean hammer it for 10 min or idle for 10 min? There seems to be great difference in the two. If i hammer it and get it really hot, oil reads lower than if you go easy and just putt around for 10 min.Seems to me oil somewhat luke warm stays in swingarm oil smokin hot hangs out in engine longer unless its running.I know scavenge pumps working because swingarm is getting hot due to hot oil cycling thru it. I'm not getting oil lights or metal in oil so not worrying to much about it at this point i just check oil when engine is lukewarm and not "Hot" and it seems to be pretty accurate. | ||
| Suzukigs |
why can't you just check the oil right AFTER you ride? Sheesh. Seems pretty simple, folks. | ||
| Milehighrider |
I have an 08 xb12scg that is doing the same thing! When i first noticed it I was very upset assuming that the techs did not fill it all the way at last service. The manual says the whole system only holds 2.5qrts i had to add 2 full qrts to even get a semi normal reading!! I have riden the bike once since doing this and have been concerned with overfill, but my airbox has no blowback from breathers.I think i need to completely drain it and start over because at this point I have no idea how much is in it!!! | ||
| Buellnick |
This is not simple when your bike has this issue... Many bikes - only one with this problem. Buell (and I) thought the problem was fixed after the oil pump was replaced. It was ok for while and now we are back to the same thing...with a twist. I have learned that if I restart the bike for about a minute or so, shut it off, and then get a reading it is more consistent. If it needs oil I fill it w/150ml per the manual and dipstick and it reads in the cross-hatched area. The motor retains lots of oil - almost like a wet sump. The heads hold lots of oil (a good thing) and when overfilled it is guaranteed to spit out oil all over the inside of your air box. BTW: for those who want to live with the dream...rock the bike on its kick stand before pulling out the wiped-off dipstick and you will always have more oil...  The new swing-arm oil pump system does strange things... I'm getting a catch-can breather system so (at least) a little inadvertent overfill doesn't end up in my airbox...or in the motor. | ||
| Buellnick |
As for not knowing how much oil is in the bike... welcome to the '08 XB ownership experience. | ||
| Piotr12 |
Does this issue exist in the '07 XB's? I am due for my first oil change and would like to get it right. Thanks in advance, Pete | ||
| Buellnick |
The '08 and newer bikes have a completely different oil pumps. The oil systems are different. The '07 or older models should not have any of the same issues. | ||
| Firesock |
Idont know about that. I have a 07 xb12 and have the same issues,it always reads low but when i add it just ends up in the air box.i just keep my oil levals about halfway threw the cross hatches and find that that solves most my problems. | ||
| Boltrider |
Can anyone else confirm that oil checking the '08+ XB's needs to be done with the engine on and idling? Maybe a question for an anonymous? I ask because someone else posted about this in the XB section. He said his dealer was in contact with a Buell tech who said the newer XB's need to be checked with the engine running. I've tried this procedure all week and it is dead-on accurate. | ||
| Buellnick |
'08 scg continues to have the same problem. The oil pump assembly was replaced - no change. Inconsistent oil readings ranging from just below the cross-hatched area to "no oil" on the dipstick. I found that restarting the motor for about a minute and then shutting it down seems to push more oil into the swing arm. Any attempt to put the oil in the cross-hatched area results in an airbox full of oil... If you put it in, it blows it out. Maybe the dipstick is not long enough for this newer oil system? Its at the dealer again. I'll see what they say this time. I started researching lemon law claims since the also bike has other performance issues which may or may not be related. | ||
| Elsinore74 |
Maybe this is a dead or superseded thread, but I'm having the same problem w/an 09 Uly. Followed Buellnick's advice (restarting when warmed-up), and found it to work better for me. It does burn a bit of oil (different thread, I know), making accurate checks that much more critical. | ||
| Buellnick |
Not dead... In fact timely since I have once again taken the bike in for oil system peculiarities. My scg is in the shop because it it is losing oil. I still go through the oil change drill I mentioned earlier. It is not burning oil (at least not visibly smoking). However, it is spraying lots of oil into the airbox from the rear cylinder. NO - IT IS NOT OVER FILLED. The dealer is running compression and pressure checks. They are also going to look at the breathers. The oil system partially relies on engine pressure to move oil into the swing arm. The new theory involves concerns over engine crankcase pressure. | ||
| Blake |
If that theory were accurate, it would seem to apply to all. My 2009 Uly has no such problem. I just check oil when I park the bike. I don't obsess about level though. If I can see oil on the dipstick, it's good. | ||
| Slash6 |
I have an 09 X - new 1 month old 2,800 miles. If I check it cold the oil shows up about 1/4 inch up from the bottom of the dipstick - below the add line. If I check it hot, or after a start and run of a minute or so the oil is at the top of the crosshatch area almost overfilled. Last time I did the oil change I rode it to warm it up - went inside to change out of riding clothes etc. - it probably was 10 or 15 min. before I got back to drain it. I'm wondering if you are not quick enough that the 2.5 qts. might overfill. Once I filled and changed the filter and added the rest to the swingarm I ran it a minute or two and checked the oil - was at the mid crosshatch area. I think at the next change I'll start and run the engine a bit immediately before I drain it and measure the output including what's in the filter. I don't know if that will prove anything but it will give me something to do since I don't have any chrome to polish. | ||
| Bombardier |
Here is a thought. Drain the engine oil and filter. Replace the oil with the required amount. Go for a nice long ride. Drain the bike overnight to see how much you get back. If it is the same or near enough do it again but drain it after a couple of rides. If there is no apparent loss of oil then it is not a problem. If there is it is. At least if the oil is draining back it draining to the engine rather than away from it - I would much rather have too much oil at the oil pump than not enough. Perhaps Erik has inadvertently pioneered the self priming motorcycle oil pump? | ||
| Buellnick |
Bike is in the shop again for oil issues... It is blowing lots of oil into the air box - predominantly out of the rear cylinder. This time the service dept is changing the breathers. The oil system relies significantly on engine pressure to move oil through the swing arm. One thing is certain, its blowing too much oil out of the breathers (it pools up) which may account for a persistent loss of oil. For those wondering, the cylinder compression and leak-down tests were within specs. Erik's team has improved the oiling system from the standpoint of efficiency. Great for the XBRR race motors and any motor... However the inability to accurately measure oil is a significant issue for the street bike owner. You try and keep it filled and you overfill it which results in more oil being blown into the air box. You run it low and the hope, pray, and cross your fingers... There seems to be enough of this oil problem around to warrant some kind of service bulletin but nothing yet. I really dont think BMC knows the cause. Its an odd problem for a limited number of bikes. There is probably some kind of manufacturing/assembly inconsistency causing it. As long as engines aren't blowing up because of oil starvation, life should be ok according to BMC... never mind that the oil system does not seem to function as advertised w/r to oil level readings. Good luck on the oil change tests. I would be interested in the results. ...and remember, do not follow the misprinted torque specs re the drain bolt (over five years running as a misprint in the manuals without a change#@!). | ||
| Blake |
If your theory were accurate, it would apply to all 2008 and later Buell XBikes. My 2009 Uly has no such problem. I just check oil when I park the bike. I don't obsess about oil level though. If I can see oil on the dipstick at or over the low line, it's good. | ||
| Blake |
>>>The oil system relies significantly on engine pressure to move oil through the swing arm. That is inaccurate. Your use of the words "relies" and "significantly" are incorrect. Think about it, there is a fairly unfettered passage for air to escape out the breather system. Also, what do you imagine the ensuing vacuum during piston upstroke does to the oil trying to be pushed uphill to the swingarm? Please just stick to the most basic and simplest of facts. Conjecture is unhelpful. I don't know what is wrong with your bike, but something is wrong with it out of the ordinary. It is not a systemic issue, and trying to portray it as such is unhelpful and horribly misleading. | ||
| Blake |
I mean these bikes have been on the road now for two years. Your's is the first I've heard of having such problematic issues. My Uly has been sitting for days. The oil level is still on the dipstick barely below the "add" line. | ||
| Court |
I'll need to check mine . . . I usually do so once a month but have been remiss. In the year I've had it (2008 model) I've never had such a problem. But, I confess, having a rudimentary knowledge of how oil is used in air cooled engines, I don't obsess. If I can see oil in the crankcase . . I'm good to go. usually I checked with Buell Engineering and Technical Publications about the torque spec on the oil drain plug. I can't speak from personal experience, but they are sticking by their specs. They have never had ONE reported problem. The suspicion (and there is nothing other than anecdotal evidence to support it) is that folks are either over tightening by "guessing" at torque or the few cases that were reported were torque wrenches well out of calibration or misread. I'm going to revisit this one and find out. I'm not taking exception (I'm not qualified to) with anything you are saying EXCEPT to say that this appears to be a "one off" problem. | ||
| Kalali |
I drain the oil almost immediately after I take the bike (mine is an '00 X1) out for at least a half hour ride. Given the location of the drain pipe on the tank (left bottom corner), my theory is that every minute you delay in draining the oil from the tank, more oil will "drain" back from the tank down into the crankcase so end up changing only a portion of the old oil. I don't know the rate which the oil drains from the tank to the case but I know it is greater than zero and if you wait long enough, a greater portion of the oil will leave the tank and a smaller portion will end up to be replaced with fresh oil. And on top of that, you may end up overfilling the tank when you put the 2.5 quarts of new oil in the tank. I am sure someone will correct me if my theory is baseless. | ||
| Buellnick |
Wow...Blake and Court on this thread. The theory is the dealer's not mine...SFHD is Buell friendly dealer with techs that actually ride them. They have not experienced anything like this before. They are not getting answers from BMC. Mincing words will not help the problem which I have been struggling with since the bike was purchased - coming up on two years. Also, the manual discusses operation of the "new" oil system and mentions reliance on pressure. The dealership has replaced components of the oil pump - no change. The techs were amazed that Buell did not authorize replacement of the whole oil pump. Labor would have been pretty close to the same... Now they are trying to diagnose what else could be causing this. They have been in touch with Buell techs in Troy and no solution. A one off problem? Maybe an "occasional off" problem as evidenced by this thread. I am not the only one. At any rate BMC needs to take care of this from the standpoint of customer support. BTW: I currently own five Buells and race one of them. I am not pleased with the "it's ok - don't worry" approach to my wife's scg. The facts are simple... - Engine oil is sumping and not going back into the swing arm. No way to accurately read oil level. - After oil changes (at the dealer - wife bought a service agreement), the oil level is full for only about 200 miles (and that's after my turn-it-back-on method of checking). After about 200 miles the oil level is below the cross-hatched area. - Air box has lots of oil in it. There is a presumption by the dealer that the oil is going somewhere and it looks like it is being consumed through the throttle body. Oil is pooled around (primarily) the rear cylinder breather hose. - Motor runs/idles poorly when started hot and the oil is full. In fact when the oil is full, the engine puffs smoke as it struggles to maintain idle on hot starts. Runs better when oil level goes down. - When the scg gets turned off after being on the road and a quick (really quick) oil check usually puts it in the "add oil" area of the dipstick. Adding oil makes it run poorly when restarted hot and eventually ends up in the air box. - When the scg sits hot for about TWO MINUTES, the oil level is sumped...no oil on the dipstick. - Start it back up and let it idle for about a minute and the oil level is back up and readable. Add oil and it gets blown into the air box... A vicious cycle. Blake, Court, somebody... tell Erik something is wrong at least with a few of these "new" oil system bikes! Two years of service experiments have not produced results. Finally, the drain plug has been stripped by many...including techs. The techs at SFHD, NM recommend 12-16 Lft LBS. My TT got a new swing arm because of the torque value. There is simply no reason to put that much torque on a steel drain plug going into aluminum. I appreciate discussion and banter but I really hope BMC and the dealer figure something out before the warranty runs out. | ||
| Court |
>>>Finally, the drain plug has been stripped by many...including techs. That was in the write up I submitted to engineering. I was surprised, and you may be to, that not one tech has ever reported that. As you know, the first page of the Factory Service Manual is a nifty form for reporting errors and omissions in the manual. I tried to argue "lots of bikes" but was unable to produce more than a small sample from here. If you can get me the names of "many including techs", I'd, very seriously, be happy to pass it on. One of the problems, and I am not taking a thing away from your problem nor disputing the accuracy of your claim, is that "many" often times means 8/50,000 on the internet. It doesn't mean it doesn't occur, it means it's sometimes tough to attract scare resources to investigate fix. I will pass this on and make sure it gets to Tech Pubs for reconsideration. | ||
| Blake |
Nick, No one is doubting you here. Your bike has a problem. Check. Let's please avoid jumping from trying to resolve your very real problem to raising alarms of some kind of systemic issue. Back to your bike, I'd strongly caution against making assumptions; stick only with cold hard facts.
Did I miss anything? Have the spark plugs been inspected? | ||
| Blake |
It appears that the 26 - 29 LB*FT torque specified for the drain plug nay be excessive. A standard half inch hex bolt tightened to a torque (T) of 29 LB*FT (348 LB*IN) and having lubricated thread engagement will result in around 5,000 LBs of preload (P). P = T / 0.15D However, the oil drain plug is not a standard hex bolt; it has a significantly smaller head than a standard hex bolt, so the preload generated will be even higher due to reduced friction effect on the torque. I don't know the diameter of the drain plug threads. From the parts manual sketch, it appears that they are at least 1/2". One of the engineers at Buell ought to be able to settle this issue in about ten minutes. Analysis is good, but if it were me, I'd obtain three swingarms and test them to failure, noting the max torque registered in so doing (be sure threads are well lubricated with engine oil). Proceed from there based on results. Max assembly torque should probably be no more than 1/3 of the minimum failure torque. | ||
| Jomartijr |
Oil level checking on a dry sump system- Take the bike for a 30 minute run, park ( sidestand deployed), leave the engine idling and do the oil level check. It works. We're so accustomed to checking wet sump oil system levels, engines off and cold on our car engines that we expect the same procedure to work with motorcycle dry sump systems and that frequently isn't the case. An example- I have two Aprilias both dry sump systems. One retains oil in the tank just fine and can be checked cold. The other allows oil to run into the engine case as soon as I shut the engine down. So I've used the hot/idling engine oil level check method and it works. Simple and no worries. Plus it is a dynamic-engine running oil level which would seem to be a better measure of oil available. | ||
| Kalali |
I have always wondered why the Manual calls for the engine to be off when checking the oil levels on these bikes. I have owned several cars with dry sump systems and all of them required checking the oil while the engine was idling. Just like how we check transmission fluid in almost all cars. My method (check the level immediately after shut off) essentially just "approximates" the engine idling method. I am just simply amazed of the amount of discussion this topic has generated through the years. I am also really surprised folks from BMC don't occasionally pop in here and read how folks receive their products. | ||
| Blake |
>>>I am also really surprised folks from BMC don't occasionally pop in here and read how folks receive their products. How do you know that they don't? |
