| Author | Message | ||
     Rotzaruck |
Finally got my 02 M2 together and going. Was rolling down a 2x8 out of the basement anticipating that long awaited test ride.Just as I got over the threshold, I squoze the front brake, NOTHING. I did manage not to fall off the board. I pumped it up, it seemed fine, and stayed that way. Got on ready to ride, brake gone again. Was just going from my Mom's to my house down the road to show Beck it was actually running(I was pretty excited by then). I learned just how hard it is to frantically pump a brake lever without twisting the throttle. It pumped up at home and stayed that way again for a good while, then gone again. If it will pump up riding, it works fine;once. History: Wrecked the bike two years ago Replaced fork tubes and front wheel, and a bunch of unrelated stuff. Didn't open any brake lines but did put new pads on. Been sitting for two years. Fired right up, goes great stops eventually when you get your heart out of your throat and remember to use the back brake. Finally the question. I know I need to change the brake fluid, it's ugly, and I don't know any history beyond these last two years. Is there a chance the new fluid will fix that or do I need to go ahead and tear in to the master cylinder or what? | ||
| Buell_bert |
Sounds like air in the system to me. | ||
| Rotzaruck |
May be, I can't find anything in the knowledge vault, so it's probably something that simple. Don't know how it got in there, but I only rode it for a short period of time. Who knows.May have been some that came out of hiding on impact. I'll change the brake fluid and bleed it good and hope for the best. Thanks! Rotzaruck! | ||
| Kusskid76 |
Sorry Rotz but it sounds more like your master cylinder is going or gone. If you get air in the lines the brakes will just be really soft or like not there at all you shouldn't be able to pump them up. if you haven't bled the fluid in a while it probably has picked up moisture and dirt which is either keeping the plunger in the master from sealing to the casting or it has damaged the plunger just enough to let the pressure bleed off. Check the O-rings on your front caliper for leaks. But fear not your local dealer can get you a rebuild kit and there usually not very expensive or hard to do!! Good luck hope this helps  | ||
| Rotzaruck |
Well I did change the fluid, put fluid in the brakes, all over the floor, my jeans, boots, and maybe a little on the ceiling. I didn't get any air out initially from the master cylinder or the bleeder. After I got done, they felt fine sitting, but yesterday it would hold for a while, till I got ready to ride, or actually started. Didn't ride tonight. Makes me wonder if the vibration is letting something let go. I guess I should investigate the master cylinder and be sure, I've gotten too accustomed to relying almost entirely on the front, and not using it until the last minute. Even when I knew to expect it, it scared me something awful when it was gone. Sitting around for two years may not have been really good for it, and who knows when if ever it had fresh fluid. Thanks! | ||
| Reepicheep |
Look for air in the system, or a bent rotor. On my KLR-250, using a velcro cable tie to put pressure on the lever over night, followed by a bleed, seemed to help some of the bubbles get past the bubble traps. Took 5 or 6 times after putting in new fluid, but they kept getting better. | ||
| Road_thing |
Rotz: If bleeding and rebuilding the MC doesn't fix it, I'd suspect corrosion in the bore of the MC--not surprising if it sat for 2 years with moisture in the fluid. If that's the case, it's time for a new MC. rt | ||
| Akbuell |
Something to try: get the brake pumped up, then apply a goodly amount of brake pressure and hold it. If the lever 'bleeds' back to handlebar, the master cyl has issues. | ||
| Rotzaruck |
Well, after considering going back to my old method of stopping,(finding something solid and hitting it), I remembered that's what started all this mess to begin with. And it hurts. I went to day and checked, it had lost any pressure, so I went ahead and pulled the master cylinder off. After modifying my snap ring pliers, I finally got the piston out. Can't see a thing wrong with it. The bore looks as clean as a fresh scrubbed shotgun bore. The cups on the piston look good and are pliable, with no visible nicks. The thread like grooves on the piston looked suspect though. Parts of the raised edges were shinier and somewhat rough like it had been rubbing, I can't figure out how that is possible, but that's what it looks like. I guess the bore could be wollered out and just not letting the cups seal, but it seems the bore would be equally rough. The front brake on a Buell is of the utmost importance, I reckon, and not something to leave in doubt. What I mean is; I'm skeered! I really feel compelled to stop this Buell abuse by hitting immovable objects. Break the cycle of abuse before I break the cycle again! Or something. I'm too pore to buy stuff that I don't really need though, especially if it doesn't solve the problem. I will check prices in the morning(after six rings today, I remembered they are closed on Mon)and compare the piston kit to the whole MC. If the MC is outlandish, I may try the kit, but unless there is a hole in the inner diameter of a cup, or a cut in the groove it sits in, I don't see any reason for the old one to leak. Now my new question. If the caliper was losing pressure it would have to be leaking on the floor wouldn't it? I don't see anywhere else it cold go. (i am working with VERY limited mental ability here though) Reep mentioned a warped rotor, I just eyeballed it, it could easily be bent some though (especially considering the offset axle I pulled out of there). Wouldn't it have to be significantly warped to make it act like this? I don't know. I did AK's test and it seems to hold just as long as you hold pressure on it. The next pull may have nothing at all, or you may come back in an hour and still have pressure on the first squeeze. Then a few minutes later, nothing again. It's odd. HMMM! Random thought. I think I just took the rotor off my old wheel and bolted it right back on my new old wheel. They didn't have the bolts in stock, so I just put the old ones back, and put new ones on the list of stuff to order when I knew the bike was going to run and go kinda where I aimed it. There's not a wrong way to put a rotor on that could cause a goofy problem is there? I think it was just parts swapping, but even that, if there is a wrong way or a long way around, I'll be leading the pack. But reason (my fuzzy version) says it wouldn't work part of the time if that was it. I'm leaning toward sucking it up and getting a master cylinder. I'll be squalling if that isn't it though! I appreciate all the help folks! Rotzaruck!    | ||
| Sparky |
Judging by all the scrapes on the right raised portion of the piston in the last photo, the piston may not be centered very well in the bore which could likely cause fluid to seep past the lip on the seals. Furthermore if those scrapes are from dirt or other contaminants, the bore might be slightly bell-shaped in that area of the piston wear. If there's any way you could borrow a bore micrometer to measure the bore diameter at several places and it shows unacceptable wear, that might save you from buying a repair kit that won't work as well as a new MC. Regarding reusing old rotor bolts, don't. The FSM specifically warns against this and to only use new bolts which have thread locker supplied. You can always get those from American Sport Bike and overnight them if the need is urgent, otherwise the dealer is OK too. | ||
| Road_thing |
If you're not losing fluid, the problem would seem to be in the MC. I think you're on the right track with the rebuild kit. Miking the bore sounds like a good idea if you can get it done, too. Regarding warped rotors, a rotating wheel with a warped rotor can push the pads back into the caliper, causing some "slack" in the system when the brakes are applied. Shouldn't happen to a stationary bike, though. rt | ||
| Reepicheep |
Yup, and easy to check. Pump up brakes, release brakes, roll bike one complete tire rotation, and hit brakes again. If they need to be pumped up again, it's a bent / mismounted rotor. | ||
| Rotzaruck |
Yeah, after studying that piston, worn areas make no sense whatsoever. Which means somethings got to be afoul. Everything looked clean and shiny in there, something must be out of kilter. I don't know what, I think I'll throw it in the scrap pile. I almost KNOW it's my imagination, but the bore does look a little egg shaped. (micrometer eyes?) The new one comes with switch and lever ( I could have lived with my slightly bent lever, but...... It's not in the budget but with the lever on it, it really wasn't as bad as I thought. I called all of our sponsors on this side of the country(and some in the middle), none in stock. Stone Mtn, without prompting from me ran a search and found a couple. I've got one on the way. I'll just pace non-stop till it gets here. I hate not knowing what happened, I can't imagine my collision warping anything without some obvious trauma to the outside of the housing. Maybe it was that way from the start, and a couple of years rest was just more than it could stand. We may never know, but I will know when I frantically pull that lever something will happen! RT and Reep, you spooked me about the rotor, until I thought back and remembered it had undoubtedly lost pressure while just siting there. I would not be surprised to find I have a warped rotor also. We'll see. That M2 is ready and tired of waiting on me. I had it all ready to start, and put in my fresh charged battery that had also sat for two years, only got a grunt. Picked up a battery the next day, put it it. It fired immediately! Thanks for all the assistance, I'll report as soon as I get the new one on there. Maybe I can sneak Becks Blast when she's not looking and get some relief! Oh yeah! Sparky, the same place happened to have the rotor bolts so I had them throw them in the box too. Thanks! | ||
| Kusskid76 |
Rotz I'm sorry to hear that you spent all that money on a whole new master cylinder I know there not cheap I rebuilt mine an my 98 S1 and yours looks exactaly like mine. Mine went when I changed the front rotor. It worked when I started and when I finished it didn't with very similar symptoms and it had also sat for a year before I did this and I rebuilt it withe the factory kit which was like $13 and $20 for a pair of master cylinder plyers and 2 years later still works great. I guess the rubber in the cups just gets soft after a while because once I got the kit I noticed that the rubber in the new cups was very stiff in comparison but sounds like got it fixed any way. By the way is that dot4 or 5? If its 5 make sure you completely flush all the fluid out of the system like half a pint or so. Good luck | ||
| Rotzaruck |
STUPID STRIKES AGAIN!!!!!!! I got my master cylinder from Missouri in record time, yesterday. Had to wait till today to do anything about it. Went and put it on, seemed fine. More to do, but time to test ride!!! backed it up to the ramp at the door, forward again to re-aim, back to the ramp. NO BRAKE!!! I was certain at least twice, it had lost pressure without moving. I should have done the simple described test, just to be 100% sure I was 100% sure.(RT and Reep, if you were a little closer you could beat me about the head and shoulders with a blunt instrument, maybe it would help) I guess there is slightly a minor, sort of offhand minuscule chance the MC was bad too. AAAAKKKK!! Ok Kusskid if I was a kusser I'd be Kussin' I could have been stupid for a lot less money, I guess. One good thing, I was anxious to ride and postponed putting in my new rotor screws. They wouldn't have been new anymore. Those rotors must be made out of platinum or something. Now scouring the used market! Are all the later tuber rotors the same? I know they changed something about them sometime. Thank you kind sirs for all the help. I will get this thing going DESPITE my own best efforts. Someday. | ||
| Road_thing |
Ed-PM me, I think I might have a used rotor out in the barn. rt | ||
| Kusskid76 |
Sorry to hear that Rotz, make sure you take your time bleeding that front brake that little MC dosent move much fluid and it can be painfully slow bleeding it out,so hang in there and keep pumping. Are you bleeding it yourself or do you have help? Most auto part stores have a one man brake bleeding tool, I love'em cause can see the bubbles as they come out. You could also try moving the bike around(back and forth,tip side to side) after 15 to 20 pumps. Hope this helps  hey you never did tell me if you are using Dot4 or 5 | ||
| Rotzaruck |
Got it hung up again and did a very thorough exacting test, involving a piece of duct tape and a muzzled sharpie. It's pretty durned warped! You would think that if somebody found an axle like this   He would stop and look for this    according to my precise measurements, it was only out 5/32" Lots of wobble! | ||
| Road_thing |
Couple of good raps with a hammer oughta fix it...  rt | ||
| Rotzaruck |
Rt Believe me I thought about it. Maybe if I put it in reverse and run over somebody. | ||
| Akbuell |
Ouch!!! That hurts!. Might do to check the runout on your wheel rim. Both sides. And are the bearings still flush?. A hit that big, changing them would probably be wise. Dave | ||
| Rotzaruck |
AK The rim was banged up pretty bad, I swapped it out. Found a used rim somewhere, should have had the foresight to find one with a rotor attached. Oh Well. | ||
| Reepicheep |
Ouch. How did you even get the axle out? | ||
| Rotzaruck |
Reep I began to suspect something amiss when the wheel started going up and down (a LOT)as I turned the axle. But, surprisingly it came out with just a little extra wiggling effort. The wheel had a ding, but it still has good air pressure in the tire. It's funny in those special little fractions of a second, what does happen and what doesn't. Road_thing Did you find my pm? Or is it too nice in TX to go in the house? 70+ this Sat and Sun, sposta snow tonight.Good grief! Beck got a nice ride in Sat though, all by herself.Poor thing. Rotzaruck! | ||
| Rotzaruck |
**************BRAKING NEWS***************** Got my newly acquired used rotor on tonight. Repeated my sharpie test, and it's just a tiny bit out. Rolled the bike back and forth and brake stayed tight. Seems ok, but since it was 1:30, and my poor old Mother had given up(it's in her basement) feeding me salami and gone to bed, I didn't test ride it. The suspense is killin' me! Did you know; even though the carrier is obviously, logically, noticeably offset to the outside, and there is writing on the out side only, people.... well some people....well at least ONE people can still manage to put them on inside out? Rotzaruck! | ||
| Road_thing |
Ed: No, I didn't get it, I'll test the system by sending myself one. Weather down here is truly beautiful, highs around 80 and bluebonnets in full bloom. It's a great time to be unemployed! I do have a spare rotor in the barn if the one you've got doesn't work out. It's not a thing of beauty but I believe it's straight. rt | ||
| Rotzaruck |
rt I'll give you time to check and I'll ship it again. I wonder where things go sometimes. Can you get a wrong number? If anybody could, it would be me. I know my rotor is out a bit and the book probably tells me how much, if any I can live with, but I'm afraid my duct tape, sharpie and rusty combination square may not be entirely accurate. The weather here today has been horrible. Houses leaving and stuff like that(not right here, but close). I finally got to where I could go try the pore thing out, but when I went outside, I chickened out. It was still very soggy, the wind was blowing fiercely and it was really dark. I decided testing a bad tired, questionable braking Cyclone in a tornado might be pushing my fragile luck. Danggit! I'm waiting for morning. Rotzaruck! | ||
| Rotzaruck |
It goes!! IT STOPS!! What more could a body wish for? Front brake may not be 100%, so I'll do some of the bleeding tricks you folks posted above. It may just be me needing to get used to it though, maybe the XB's brake is just a tad better. But I'm riding and I'm happy! Rotzaruck! | ||
| Reepicheep |
Using the velcro tie to hold the lever really tight over night, followed by bleeding the next morning right after I release it, does a good job of hunting nasty bubbles. I think the pressure makes the bubbles go into solution, so when you bleed you take that dissolved air out with the fluid. Or the bubbles can dissolve out of "bubble traps" and when they re-appear they are in a place where you will bleed them.. |
