| Author | Message | ||
     Fresnobuell |
Then they have a weight penalty slapped on them by DMG as well................ I seriously doubt the porky Aprillia can get to 385, let alone 365. This is the same reasoning that the Buell has no "advantage" regarding the allowable weights. The stringent DS rules and lack of factory funding limit what the 2-cylinder teams can do regarding weight. At this point in the game, the only bikes that have a weight advantage are the 600cc machines. This is fine as it keeps the racing competitive. And it very well may push the smaller displacement bikes over the top at true road courses. | ||
| Court |
>>>Why would they? The Aprilia is a 9 year old engine at the very end of it's development life. Ahhhh . . . . so now we learn that "engine age" is ALSO a metric. Let me guess. . . . Buell should be further penalized for having a new motor. Fun stuff . . . it's like playing football with the goal posts in constant motion. Okay . . . what the next double secret series metric . . engine color? Aprilia must be amazed, with an old tired motor, that they had the fastest lap time. | ||
| Sd26 |
LOL! Thanks, Court! | ||
| Diablo1 |
Let me guess. . . . Buell should be further penalized for having a new motor. No, they should be penalized for having the largest displacement, liquid cooled, twin cylinder motor in the series. Or perhaps, you don't have a problem with Aprilia using the 1060 kit? I seriously doubt the porky Aprillia can get to 385, let alone 365. This is the same reasoning that the Buell has no "advantage" regarding the allowable weights. Right...so that's why they let Buell run magnesium racing catalog wheels. Perhaps you don't have a problem with Aprilia using the Nera magnesium wheels...the ones that they would sell you "without a racing license".} | ||
| Elvis |
Chaz Davies getting into the top ten at Daytona on the old RSVR should be viewed as a massive achievement.  So when a Buell that has never been raced in a series near this level and doesn't really market itself as a race-bike goes up against 600's, they should be embarrassed, but when a $20,000 race bike with exotic components that is very specifically marketed as a Superbike goes up against the same 600's it should be considered a "massive achievement". Honestly, I think that's about the funniest thing I've ever seen posted on here. The simple fact is these 600's with these teams with these riders are very nicely matched with 1125R's, Aprilia's, KTM's, Ducati 848's and BMW HP2's. Any team that puts a good rider on any of those bikes and supports them with a serious team should have a shot at this series. (Message edited by elvis on March 25, 2009) | ||
| Fresnobuell |
Perhaps you don't have a problem with Aprilia using the Nera magnesium wheels...the ones that they would sell you "without a racing license". As far as I know you don't need a racing license to buy the Buell mag wheel either--just a big checkbook. I wouldm't care if the Aprillia ran magnesium wheels--the racing would be that much better. I am sure the DMG will make some changes if one make continues to dominate the racing--especially if the race goes like Saturday's race. | ||
| Xb984r |
So how does a race bike weigh 22 pounds more than a stock bike? | ||
| Court |
I have not problem with Aprilia using anything they sell. I **do** like the idea of using only components commercially available for purchase. I, as a huge fan of Aprilia, is thrilled to see them in the hunt as was as pleased to see them take the fastest lap as I was to see Buell's stellar performance. For too long the Japanese have dominated this type of racing often spending nearly $2M a race. Aprilia has a great appeal to me. They have much in common with Buell starting as a bicycle company in making the leap to powered vehicles with the A1 (one of the only motorcycles in the world for which there are no known photographs) in a day when a company made up of 3 workers assembled and shipped 3 bikes a day. I kinda keep track of Aprilia as one of my good friends is the editor of Italy's largest motorcycle magazine and he ran the first advertisement Aprilia ever ran in 1967 and continues to send me books and material from the factory. I'm cheering for them, The rules were set to make the series interesting and the playing field as level as possible. The folks who did it, did their level best (why can't they be running our government?) and made no bones that any glaring problems could easily be corrected. I'm one of those folks who, for the most part, could care less about racing. I've never seen a GP race, never watched a DVD of one and have no interest. I suppose it's why I enjoy watching my Kansas Jayhawks (current reigning NCAA Champions) play basketball but have never seen a pro game. The racing this year has all of a sudden drawn interest. I'm hoping the days of 215 folks in the stands at Daytona are history. As I read the Aprilia board I was less concerned with all the "Buell paid someone off" boy gibberish as I was thrilled to see the renewed and elevated level of interest in racing. Someone once said . . . there is no greater motivator than a another highly motivated person dying to knock you off. For my money . . . you could toss the Japanese 600's with their adolescent mouth-a-matic delinquents and have a Triumph, BMS, Ducati, Buell and Aprilia race. It's just cool to see the enthusiasm brewing. All the talk about this wheel and that wheel is minutiae. . . we've been invited to watch, not to make the rules. I like that, all of a sudden, I am looking at the schedule and dreaming about what races I may be able to attend. Buell . . . love'em or hate'em, is making racing fun again. Let's see a 600 do that? I love competition!  Court P.S. . . . I've got a competition coming up . . . hope they don't toss in an "age factor" with all those Harvard, Oxford and Yale kids . . . .
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| Trojan |
but when a $20,000 race bike with exotic components that is very specifically marketed as a Superbike goes up against the same 600's it should be considered a "massive achievement". I think maybe you need to check a few models in the Aprilia range. The RSVR (even in 'Factory' spec) is not and never has been sold as a race bike. It is fitted with exotic components because that is what the Italian manufacturers do on their top line models (have you seen a Benelli recently?). As for marketing as a Superbike, perhaps you should read some Buell marketing blurb about the 1125 range? To suggest that Aprilia have an advantage by rolling out a bike with an almost unchanged motor for 9 years and a chassis that hasn't changed since 2004 is ridiculous. Contrary to What Court suggested, engine development has come on in leaps and bounds over the last few years and a new engine will undoubtedly be more efficient and more powerful (or at least have more potential for tuning)than a 9 year old design. The Aprilia has been uncompetitive at national level for years (when was the last time you saw one in a national level Superbike race?) and the motor has had no development for a long time either, with all of their development work being chanelled into the new WSB spec V4 for at least the last 4 years that I know of. So, either the US team have some super secret components that nobody else racing an Aprilia RSV worldwide has access to....or cheated (unlikely), or maybe it is simply that the level of competition in DS is much lower than current Superbike standards and so allow an outdated and heavy old 'superbike' to compete in the top ten. All of the componenets on the Aprilia can probably be bought over the counter at your local Aprilia dealer or from specialists such as RSVR.com, or are stock fitments to that bike. The Nera wheels are stock fitment to the Nera models and 'Factory' models have mag weels as standard. Would you complain if Buell released an RR version of the 1125 with mag wheels, Ohlins suspension and lightweight components? (which is what the model needs if it is to sell against the Italian/Austrian twins in Europe anyway). Why do people think that just because it is an Italian sportsbike it is automatically designed and intended for racing? The Ducati 848 is another bike that has been developed specifically as a road bike (unlike the 1098/1198)but everyone expects it to be a race winner as soon as it takles to the track. | ||
| Hughlysses |
Q&A with AMA Pro Racing including discussion on Buell displacement at Motorcycle Daily this morning: http://www.motorcycledaily.com/25march09_controves y.htm | ||
| Court |
>>>Contrary to What Court suggested Oooops. Court suggested no such thing. Court simply suggested that Aprilia, also hovering there with 40% more displacement should be subject to the same criticism. In fact, Court said
It was then Matt who "suggested" that Aprilia's woes could be due to an antiquated motor design. Let them go to their own forum, piss and moan and demand Aprilia get off their ass and develop a new motor. And . . . if it's so antiquated . . how, pray tell, did it manage the fastest lap? Facts are askew. The more Buell gets taken to task the sweeter their victories appear. Could it be that Buell developed a great engine, great chassis, ran a fair race and won? . . . oh my gosh! | ||
| Greenlantern |
Facts are askew. The more Buell gets taken to task the sweeter their victories appear. Could it be that Buell developed a great engine, great chassis, ran a fair race and won? . . . oh my gosh! Knock it off, I have told you more than once how much truth and facts pisses me off! If you can't abide the practice of conjecture and speculation then stop contributing please.  | ||
| Blake |
"AMA racing doesn't even warrant a mention in European publications any more" Given the dominant performance to date of young Mr. Spies in WSBK, and the presence of Neil Hodgson in AMA SBK racing, that is awfully strange and would seem to be evidence of some kind of goofed up anti-American bias. Well then I guess we shouldn't be too surprised.  It seems then that Euros are stuck in some kind of bitter little "our way is best" arrogant way of thinking. Sad. I'd much prefer multiple shorter duration races, but I like NASCAR racing. There is no racing anywhere that is closer, more hotly contested, or with more parity. I'd love to see the scoffers take a right seat ride around a super-speedway with a Tony Stewart running three wide into turn 1 at near 200 mph. I never understand why some folks feel the need to insult and run-down a racing series just because they don't happen to appreciate it. Matt, If you think NASCAR and Indy car sponsors are not major international conglomerates, you haven't checked the list of sponsors lately. http://www.indycar.com/sponsors/ NASCAR Spring Cup sponsors include Shell, 3M, Red Bull, Toyota, AT&T Wireless, and others. | ||
| Ceejay |
why does it matter? Sure I get fired up when my kid plays hockey and other parents are putting their 100 lbs 8 yr old out there, but then my boy still sticks his nose in and goes for it. But that's my kid. I don't have a kid on the racetrack, and I'd guess that most here don't either, plus they're big boys who get paid to do race manufacturers toys. DMG gets paid to gain exposure, for which the Buell is getting a lot of it, and despite some of the issues I think they're doing a damn fine job. They pretty much straight outta the box took manufacturer recomendations and future plans and crafted a pretty good race series from a pretty flat one. While it seems the Euro's would be happy with us running it as it was, either to keep interest in thier series climbing or just because they like things flat, I've heard more casual cyclists where I work comment on the racing in the past three weeks than I've heard in the past six years. While the elitist types may want to keep those folks out, I can't really see how that's a bad thing. They way I see it DMG did thier homework and realized the a motorcyle is a complex and sometimes dynamic system that can't be simplified down to a simple equation where cc size is directly proportional to race wins... | ||
| Blake |
"AMA racing doesn't even warrant a mention in European publications any more" And surely that doesn't include AMA Supercross or Motocross. And why the snide comment about America losing WSBK and MotoGP races? I believe we have two MotoGP events here this year, and one WSBK. Not including America in either series would be much more of a loss to those respective series, especially if they seek to honestly portray themselves as a "world" championship, than it would to racing fans in general here. But I'm not one with a snide anti-American kind of viewpoint as apparently the Euro press seems to exhibit all too often of late. In terms of racing, a stock motorcycle is not anything near a superbike. If Buell were fielding an actual, in racing terms, "superbike" against the 600's folks decrying the rules would have a point. But the truth is that the performance of all contending machines as limited by the rules is very much equitable. The results prove it so. Anything else is just talk. (Message edited by Blake on March 26, 2009) | ||
| Rubberdown |
Court, you probably already known but Aprilia just developed their own motor in house. The V4 which is racing in WSB. Pretty big step for a small company. I see Buell eventually doing the same with success! | ||
| Elvis |
I think maybe you need to check a few models in the Aprilia range. The RSVR (even in 'Factory' spec) is not and never has been sold as a race bike. It is fitted with exotic components because that is what the Italian manufacturers do on their top line models (have you seen a Benelli recently?). As for marketing as a Superbike, perhaps you should read some Buell marketing blurb about the 1125 range? Well I'm not quite sure what to say because this is so flat wrong that I don't think it's a matter of interpretation or opinion. I guess the best thing to do is let the text speak for itself. Here's what Buell says about the 1125R: For most superbike manufacturers, engineering the perfect sportbike begins with a focus on the machine. That’s not the case with Buell. For us, it all begins with the rider. Take a look at the Buell 1125R. Everything on this bike is there to give you more feel, more control and more confidence. It features intuitive handling, an ideal rider environment and a broad, predictable powerband, compliments of the light and compact 1125cc liquid-cooled, DOHC V-Twin. It’s all there for a reason. And that reason is you. Here's just part of what Aprilia says about the RSVR: Competition may come and go, but the Aprilia RSV 1000 R remains the unquestioned top dog among supersport motorcycles for its amazing handling on road and racetrack. The Aprilia RSV 1000 R has shown its competitive edge in world endurance racing, where it is the only production twin able to compete on even terms with the best four cylinder machines in the world, as demonstrated by the excellent results achieved. Legendary races like the Le Mans 24 hours and the massacring Bol d’Or 24 hours have shown exactly how effective the twin cylinder Aprilia RSV 1000 R is on the racetrack , and how totally reliable it is too. Endurance racing has provided more than just an unforgettable experience. It has served as a valuable test bench for the latest technical solutions now appearing on Aprilia production bikes. The Aprilia RSV 1000 R is determined to maintain its supremacy as the best sports twin money can buy, for its advanced technology and for its amazing performance. But what counts the most is the fact that the Aprilia RSV 1000 R is still the bike to beat when it comes to ease of riding. Because riders feel so instantly confident on an Aprilia RSV 1000 R, they really can ride at the limits of their abilities and stay totally relaxed too. The benefits are obvious in terms of less physical and mental stress, faster and safer motorcycling and the ability to remain fully concentrated for far longer, factors that contribute to success on the racetrack and safety on the road. And here's what they say about the "Factory" version: The Aprilia RSV 1000 R Factory was the fastest bike around ten out of twelve curves and the fastest in top speed at the end of six out of twelve straights. The Aprilia RSV 1000 R Factory did not just win, it dominated the final of the 2006 Master Bike, thanks to amazingly safe braking, rapid yet smooth and precise control when leaning into curves, excellent rear wheel feel under acceleration and, last but not least, a final drive gear ratio specially calculated for effective racing. This year’s Master Bike has scientifically and conclusively demonstrated that the Aprilia RSV 1000 R Factory is the most efficient winning machine on the racetrack. It is also the first non-Japanese bike to dominate the final points table, and the most impressive V twin in the competition. The RSV 1000 R Factory is the best twin cylinder supersport that money can buy. Its updated V60 Magnesium engine and new chassis combine with special, ultra-light materials and the best components in the world to ensure absolute excellence on the track. The Aprilia RSV 1000 R Factory is the utmost expression of Aprilia's technological and sporting heritage. Here is a bike designed for those who demand maximum performance on the track. Yet, like all previous RSV 1000 R models, the new Factory still sells at a surprisingly low price. Just like its predecessors, the new Factory brings you the best motorcycle technology in the world at a rock bottom price. Nowhere else will you find this level of equipment for such a low outlay. The Factory is an RSV 1000 R that has been pushed beyond the excellence barrier, cleverly modified and equipped with only superlative components. You can read the rest on their site if you want, but it just basically goes on and on about what great racebikes the RSVR's are and their exotic race components etc. Now I agree that it is an aged design, and I think that the 600's in this series are capable of some pretty amazing things, so I think it makes sense to race an older 1000cc racebike and an un-refined 1125R streetbike for some great, diverse racing. . . . but your claims that Buell should be embarrassed while Aprilia racing in the same class is a "massive achievement" is just crazy beyond words. | ||
| Trojan |
it dominated the final of the 2006 Master Bike, Master bike is not a race, it is a giant test of road machines put through various tests to see who comes out as top overall. It includes road and track sessions. The Aprilia scores very highly in Master Bike because it is such a well developed road bike that happens to work well on track against other road bikes. . . but your claims that Buell should be embarrassed while Aprilia racing in the same class is a "massive achievement" is just crazy beyond words. I don't claim that Buell should be embarassed. In fact as a Buell fan I want Buell to be seen in the best possible light rather than racing under the skewed and flawed DS system. The rules only invite people to dismiss the 1125 simply because it enjoys such an advantage (even if only on paper) over the opposition comprising of 600 sportsbikes and ageing twins with a weight penalty. I, and many others would rather see Buell stand toe to toe with the other 'Superbike' manufacturers exactly as Higbee is doing. Even if it means finishing 10th or lower they can hold their heads high knowing that they are battling against the world's best Superbikes (or at least the AMA best), rather than go through the apparent sham of the DS format as it now stands where evryone knows the rules are bent. If Buell (and lots of Buell 'fans') cannot see what a disservice this is doing to the Buell 1125R then I don't know what to say.) | ||
| Trojan |
And why the snide comment about America losing WSBK and MotoGP races? Why is it a snide comment? What motivation will there be for WSB to race in the US when there is no interest in the WSB format amongst the AMA or spectators? Why will MotoGP continue to race in the US when the US sport is in such dissaray and there is no logical connection between MotoGP and AMA? If trackside (and more importantly) TV audiences are not there then it doesn't matter which country we are talking about, the GP will go somewhere else. Nothing to do with any Anti US bias just pure financial sense. | ||
| Sd26 |
Why is it a snide comment? What motivation will there be for WSB to race in the US when there is no interest in the WSB format amongst the AMA or spectators? Why will MotoGP continue to race in the US when the US sport is in such dissaray and there is no logical connection between MotoGP and AMA? If trackside (and more importantly) TV audiences are not there then it doesn't matter which country we are talking about, the GP will go somewhere else. Nothing to do with any Anti US bias just pure financial sense. We haven't had the Formula 1 class in AMA racing since the last season in 1986. Ask Erik Buell about it, please. That is the direct link to the MotoGP program. I'm not sure what the rational direction the statement above it trying to do. MotoGP and WSB, in addition to the AMA, are pretty simple programs. A race track, or a promotor, has to pay them a specific amount of money to show up. It's not because they like anyone or they think it's a cool track or anything. The GP will go someplace else when Laguna and Indy stop paying them to show up. And that will happen when people get bored of it or the promotions people of the tracks fail to get people to come to the show. This isn't club racing. | ||
| Slaughter |
I'd say we haven't had a SUPERBIKE class since the 2-strokes went away. Superbike when it started was based on STREETBIKES... Really - I'm not making that up! Imagine that, a race class calling itself "super" being based on streetbikes when the REAL racebikes were being eliminated. | ||
| Dentguy |
Here's what Buell says about the 1125R: Here's just part of what Aprilia says about the RSVR: And here's what they say about the "Factory" version: Superbike this, racebike that, built from the rider down. It's all just marketing to sell street bikes. | ||
| Sd26 |
I think maybe you need to check a few models in the Aprilia range. The RSVR (even in 'Factory' spec) is not and never has been sold as a race bike. Aprilia offer contingency for individuals that raced their simple V-twin in competition. Just like Suzuki offering money for its SV650, SV1000, GSXR series... Just like Yamaha, Honda, Kawasaki, and at times Ducati all offering contingency on their street bikes. I'm not sure what the point of saying that "it isn't a race bike" is, but one can race just about anything if it fits in a class and it can be raced. Not to mention that for a bike to be raced in AMA competition, the manufacture must homologize a model in addition to offering a contingency program. That makes it Aprilia's race bike in AMA competition. | ||
| Court |
>>>>It's all just marketing to sell street bikes. Which . . . . given that Buell is in the BUSINESS of selling street bikes seems like pure genius. Never forget what you do and where your bread is buttered. Racing has never made a motorcycle company successful. The old "win on Sunday, sell on Monday" is largely urban legend. Imagine, let's take Honda, that you WIN on Sunday at a cost of $1,500,000 (about what they spend) and that you need to produce a compelling cost : benefit business case. Assume that there is a 12% margin in CBR's that sell for $7000 or $900 per bike. To "break even" on the racing benefit you'd have to have MARGINAL (increase attributable to racing activities) of $1,500,000 / $900 or 1,667 bikes x 12 races per year or 20,000 motorcycles. Look . . . I'll play all the internet games want but bottom line is racing is LARGELY for fun. Feel free to argue and change all the above number to your hearts content . . . they are all guesses. But you can see how tough it is to promote a "we're racing to make money" agenda. | ||
| Sd26 |
Racing has never made a motorcycle company successful. Well, I would have to say that the US popularity of the GSXR series was related to its sales to racers for their contingency. It hasn't always been the best choice in the popular 600cc category, but when faced with making money or parts in the paddock, the GSXR has been a good choice. I have a Buell because of contingency. It's not going to make or break a company, but it is a little cushion, certainly. Now, what happens to Suzuki now that they have dropped the Suzuki Cup Final after having it from 1986 through 2008? | ||
| Diablo1 |
Racing has never made a motorcycle company successful. Spoken like an accountant from Harley to justify why they quit racing. Racing is not just marketing. It is also advanced product development and advanced engineering. On the world stage, the most successful racing MC companies have been Honda and Yamaha over the last several decades. If you believe in advancing the design of the motorcycle, you go racing. If not, you add chrome.} | ||
| Court |
>>>Spoken like an accountant from Harley to justify why they quit racing. Although I do have a degree in Accounting, I also have the good fortune to have been close enough to HD during the VR-1000 program to know that economics alone played only a tertiary role in that decision, even though HD lost millions on the program. The 19 HD dudes in the stands at Daytona pretty well confirmed few HD riders gave a flying rat's ass about the VR. HD **HATED** to give that up but the program was terribly managed and a total and complete failure from motor to frame. Part of wisdom is knowing when to quit. You are absolutely spot on about advanced product development and advanced engineering. Actually Harley-Davidson has done some masterful engineering. What they learned from the VR program was what not to do. . . . good reason why there is not a single VR part in the VROD. | ||
| Trojan |
Racing has never made a motorcycle company successful. Apart from Ducati, Honda, Yamaha, Kawasaki (although they have shipbuilding to fall back on) Suzuki etc etc etc. Undervaluing the impact that racing has on sales and development is completely misguided when it comes to motorcycles. It may work in the US, but in Europe sports bikes are king, and sales are directly related to race success. Why do you think that people flock to buy the very latest, lightest, fastest superbikes/sportsbikes instead of keeping their current model for a couple of years more? Sportsbikes are less fuel efficient, more uncomfortable, less road biased and more race oriented very season yet people still buy them in droves to commute on. If the big 4 didn't race then they wouldn't develop sportsbikes, and we'd all be riding BMW GS1200's........simple. | ||
| Jaimec |
In Europe maybe. In the States, we'd all be riding big ass cruisers. Oh wait...  | ||
| Fast1075 |
Slaughter said "I'd say we haven't had a SUPERBIKE class since the 2 strokes went away"......Bingo!!! In an alternate universe somewhere there are fully sorted Buell RW-750s kicking everybody's butt.....and whiners there are crying too.... I never saw or heard a RW...but I saw plenty of TZ's and Gamma's....I would love to see a race full of those just one more time. |
