| Author | Message | ||
     Greenlantern |
As for superbike Rotax needs to come up with some parts that are designed with more of a race spec. eng. in mind. ie@ higher rpm use,heads pistons comp. etc. Smart money says that with all the time and dollars spent in development, you can be sure the platform is an open ended one. | ||
| Court |
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| Trojan |
I think a 1098 duc. makes too much power "stock" for the class. Thats why they they run a 848. Should read....the 1098 makes too much power to race against the Buell, so is not allowed in the same class. Until Buell race their 1125cc bike against other Superbikes instead of supersports bikes they will not be seen as deserved winners, despite what the factory says about weights and measures after the race. It doesn't even matter that the winning Buell was actually over the prescribed weight limit at the finish. Outside of the circle of Buell afficionados this won't mean a thing. All that matters is that the organisers have allowed the Buell to have a weight advantage over the other twins in the race and against the 600's too (running an 1125 at 600 weight is a big advantage). Joe public just sees a big bike beating up the little bikes. Until Buell run the 1125 against the other Superbikes the champagne will always be a bit flat, and to be honest if they don't lead every lap and win every race there will be something wrong. By the way, this isn't me being 'down' on Buell. read just about any other forum or speak to any race 'insiders' and you'll see that Buell is doing thenmselves no favours whatsoever by racing or winning in this class. | ||
| Court |
If I were that frickin' negative in my life . . . I'd fall on the sword. What a disgusting cry baby view. | ||
| Davegess |
Matt, here in the USA the vast majority of biker and potential bikes do not care about or understand racing. They will see winner and like that. You have have beaten a bunch of water buffalo and they would not care. I know it is not like this in Europe but than the Europeans seem to be happy to buy Buells without the racing cred. American racing is not like European racing and American racing fans are not like European ones. Less than 1% of bikers here have any interest in racing at all. I really don't understand why the big 4 spend so much money on it here, they could reach their target market with stunters. And, mark my words, give Buell a few years and they will be kickin' some but in WSBK. I am with Court on this - we are seeing the beginning sorta like watching Ducati win all those Italian 250CC races before they went on the world stage. | ||
| Rubberdown |
Often, being objective is not a negative outlook on things. | ||
| Doerman |
Don't confuse objectivity with ignorance. Matt is not ignorant of racing! He is just ignorant of what is going on here right now and viewing it from afar with "European racing standard" goggles. He has been critical of the 2009 AMA format all along and he is just continuing in that direction. That's just being consistent - a good thing. | ||
| Trojan |
He has been critical of the 2009 AMA format all along and he is just continuing in that direction. That's just being consistent - a good thing. I have been critical of the new format (and still am). AMA racing doesn't even warrant a mention in European publications any more, whereas it was once one of the most important domestic series in the world. It is now viewed as a bit of a three ring circus, with the rules being skewed to suit American bikes (just like dirt track racing was), which turns off European followers. I am not being negative, just realistic, when I say that Buell need to race against the 'proper' Superbikes in order to gain credence from racing, at least from a European standpoint. When the do I will be amongst the first to cheer their success. I admit I don't understand the American view of racing. Over here rules such as these would be laughable (if they could ever get past the other manufacturers that is) and it would be entirely possible that the other manufacturers/teams/riders would simply refuse to race on such a tilted playing field. I have said it before and I'll say it again. Racing under the current rules will be a poison chalice for Buell..damned if you win, damned if you lose. | ||
| Doerman |
Buell need to race against the 'proper' Superbikes in order to gain credence from racing One privateer, Higbee, is racing in AMA Superbike. He took 15th this Sunday in a field of ~30. His bike is 130RWHP. It's a start. And I do believe there's more competitive equipment to come from Buell for that class. | ||
| Davegess |
I will go out on limb here and predict that the DMG series will propel MC racing to unimagined heights of fandom. We will see so many people at the tracks that we will complain about the crowds. We will actually see the races live on TV. Guys not being paid by the factories will actually be able to make a living at the sport. Major consumer goods will sponsor bike teams. The manufacturers will still have a presence but will not dictate the rules, most of the bikes will be purchased by the independent teams and they will actually make money doing it. They will do this not by building spec races like in NASCAR or waving yellow flags to prevent runaway victories. They will do it by assuring that variety of types and brands of bikes can compete and win. They will have close exciting racing and will make more money than anyone in the sport now even dreams is possible. We might even be able to draw more TV viewers than beach volleyball  | ||
| Duggram |
Matt, what do you think of Shaun Higbee riding in American Superbike? | ||
| Elvis |
I don't know why Edmondson lifted the HP limit on the Sport-bike class. I would think that the current Superbike format (with a commitment to go to WSBK rules sooner rather than later) combined with a HP limited Sport-bike class and Moto-GT would make a very entertaining line-up of racing with three very different formats. At the moment, the Aprilias, Buells and 600's seem to be running surprisingly close, but I would think that, given some development time, eventually the Buells will start to pull ahead. I wonder if part of Edmondson's plan is to let the Buells have enough of an advantage that the Japanese teams who objected to the HP limits will be the ones asking for them down the road. (Message edited by elvis on March 24, 2009) | ||
| 46champ |
Matt I understand why you and your fellow Europeans would feel the way you do, But I don't think you realize how badly broken road racing is here in the good ole USA. The Japanese manufactures had divided up racing so each manufacture had a class to dominate thus everyone could claim they were #1. The spectator count over the last 10 to 15 years has bore this out. The domestic media in this country in so venomously anti American that they would just as soon see an American Manufacture fail, after all bad news sells more stories. | ||
| Sd26 |
I agree on the anti-Americanism. I think the AMA spectator numbers have been reasonable for a series that has had a regularly predeterimined outcome. I believe that DMG lifted the HP/weight ratio to get the distributor teams to play as they will always have an advantage, but at least with the rules structure, it shouldn't be as skewed. | ||
| Patrickmitchell |
Dave: I hope you are right about the fan base. I'd love to know how the current TV deal got done. Showing highly edited races two weeks after they have happened is either foolish, or it was a last resort (take it or leave it from Speed). If there were not enough viewers to draw sponsors (necessary to compete against other options), maybe we should thank DMG. Time will tell. Supercross is doing better than ever. They have huge crowds and the TV audience has been growing in a huge way. Americans do like to watch bikes race. We need to get a road racing format that people want to watch. This means close competitive racing on good equipment. I certainly did not like the Daytona 200 format (rolling starts, the lights going out, and caution laps are not my thing). It will be interesting to watch the Fontana races to see how good the "new" racing plays out from a fan's point of view. If the racing is exciting, it is only a matter of time until they start to air live. Lets hope DMG succeeds. Buell's success is keeping me interested. Lets hope the show gets better quickly. | ||
| Sd26 |
I will go out on limb here and predict that the DMG series will propel MC racing to unimagined heights of fandom. We will see so many people at the tracks that we will complain about the crowds. We will actually see the races live on TV. Guys not being paid by the factories will actually be able to make a living at the sport. Major consumer goods will sponsor bike teams. The manufacturers will still have a presence but will not dictate the rules, most of the bikes will be purchased by the independent teams and they will actually make money doing it. They will do this not by building spec races like in NASCAR or waving yellow flags to prevent runaway victories. They will do it by assuring that variety of types and brands of bikes can compete and win. They will have close exciting racing and will make more money than anyone in the sport now even dreams is possible. We might even be able to draw more TV viewers than beach volleyball; ) Exactly. Dave, sounds like you've been around a while. Do you remember the old copies of stuff that Roger and Pat Murphy put out in the late 80's early 90's that were examples of press releases from private racers talking about how they moved from club racing to racing in national races making enough money to do it full time? I kept lots of stuff from then, and it still rings true today. Guys just want to be able to make a living doing well at racing. It's not easy, but it's just terrible if certain programs are predetermined to win with others following. The AMA has needed attainable, enforceable rules for quite some time. I think we're at least at the start of that. Superbike racing started here. So, it's nice to see that maybe some real changes are starting here too. | ||
| Court |
>>>Dave, sounds like you've been around a while. To quote my USMC Drill Instructor . . . "since Christ was a Corporal".  | ||
| Davegess |
"since Christ was a Corporal" I don't like the delayed TV BUT I bet it will help grow the fan base. Being on at the same time each week, with all the boring stuff cut out it is likly to begin to draw a regular audience. We are not the folks they are after. We will check the TV scehdule and figure out that this week it is on Sunday at 4 and next week is Monday at 2. The folks they want need a regular scheduled event to link up with. I think it will work. Edmundson knows how to run a race series, the old AMA did not. The old AMA series was run for the manufacturers this one is run for the racers and the fans. Real money is paid many places back in the field. | ||
| Fresnobuell |
Great thread that really explains American racing in general and the thought behind the way the Daytona Sportbike was setup. Must read. Nicely done, Dave http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/158 664/3601.html | ||
| Bads1 |
Sure I agree Dave. But the viewing for you and in Wisconsin is going to be at 10pm on a Saturday night. A fresh young viewing audience are not home at 10 pm on Saturday's. They are out.... not at home and if they are usually by chance. | ||
| Sd26 |
Dana, I've neglected to drop you a note saying that I was sorry that I didn't get by your place for the 200. Bad day at work. But I can say that I saw your establishment from Washington. Looks pretty sweet. I think I'm missing out. | ||
| Drummer |
10pm Central and 11pm Eastern is not anyone's idea of where you put a new program trying to gain ratings. And I don't think they are even repeating the program later in the week. It sure seems like they are tossing DMG a bone more than anything else. Maybe they should look to several regional networks or another national network like Versus? | ||
| Davegess |
I suspect DMG is looking at a lot of stuff. The first move is to stop the bleeding and I think they have done that. | ||
| Bads1 |
That's ok Dave. Everyone had a good time I think. We waited for quite some time for you but couldn't anylonger. When were you on Washington ave. ?? | ||
| Macdiver |
The original post mentioned the proof of the unfair advantage that is being circulated on other forums. I would like to know which forums. I checked a few sport bike and manufacturer forums and didn't see any discussion on AMA racing. That is the real problem, no one really cares about the AMA. DMG control can not make the popularity of motorcycle road racing in America any worse. | ||
| Trojan |
Matt, what do you think of Shaun Higbee riding in American Superbike? I think it where the Lion's share of the development and publicity should be based if the 1125 is to be seen as a credible alternative to the KTM RC8 or Ducati 1098. It is also a team that I have the greatest respect for, because they are racing in a class where the odds are not stacked in their favour. This is the series where prospective and knowledgeable Superbike buyers look for their next ride (in both Europe and the US), and is still seen as the blue riband class in US racing (and the only one to get even the briefest of mentions outisde the US). The Superbike class is hugely important to manufacturers in terms of sales and prestige, and is why BMW, Aprilia and KTM are returning to racing at World level in WSB rather than MotoGP or Supersport. Sooner or later the AMA will either have to realign their Superbike series with the rest of the world or be stranded in a parallel dimension forever (watching the big teams and the big sponsors dwindle away to the rampant WSB series), and when they do it will be the Buell teams that did their development in Superbike that will be at the forefront hopefully. I wish Shaun's team every success and will cheer them harder and hoarser for their 15th place than for any amouint of wins in the lesser classes. Dave, I still have to disagree I'm afraid. The current AMA rules are set to move US racing further away from the direction that teams, factories and sponsors worldwide want to go, and will certainly put the organisers and the major manufacturers at loggerheads again before very long (at risk of tearing the sport apart for good). 'Bums on Seats' spectators are a tiny fraction of motorsports and motocycle racing income these days, with the major finance still coming from corporate sponsorship and global TV marketing. Whilst DMG may get more paying spectators (who may not seem to care what the rules are), it isn't going to survive long without the support of factories, importers or TV companies. More and more factories want to go Superbike racing, but they won't want to commit to racing in the US under the current regime or rules. When the US has lost both its WSB and MotoGP races because they are no longer relevant then the fans will dwindle, not increase. How will the current lacklustre lineups and terrible TV scheduling attract more punters or sponsors? The US will be left with another idiosynchratic motorsport like Nascar, Indycar and Dirt Track that the rest of the world scratches their corporate heads at and quietly ignores. | ||
| Bads1 |
Thats all your speculation and your opinion. | ||
| Sd26 |
That's ok Dave. Everyone had a good time I think. We waited for quite some time for you but couldn't anylonger. When were you on Washington ave. ?? I'm traveling through there every Thursday and Friday and alternate Wednesdays supplying the Aurora RX's on Washington. I'm so close there in that shopping center across the street, but we're time and product sensitive. Decent job that seems to leave me time to race this year. No complaints, other than the early hours. I think I missed out by not being able to share in the fun with you guys. Maybe another one of these times. Or I should try and drop by for lunch on one of these days when I need to pick up parts at Uke's. | ||
| Bads1 |
I'm there in the morning's from 7am till 11-11:30am. The back entrance is open because I have delivery's. If your in the area and have time.... please stop by we can meet. Lunch is no problem. | ||
| Greenlantern |
}The US will be left with another idiosynchratic motorsport like Nascar, Indycar and Dirt Track that the rest of the world scratches their corporate heads at and quietly ignores. There is a large section of this country where a remark like that is akin to "Soccer (football) sucks and is for Nancies!" in Europe. DMG is on the right track as far as I am concerned. I think it high time that motorcycle racing becomes just that and not the technology showdown it had evolved into in the last 20 years or so, I for one like the roadmap just the way it is. |
