| Author | Message | ||
     Crackhead |
+1 | ||
| Benm2 |
The Buell motor is a Rotax. They've no small number of years in engine development either. DMG HAS given the Buell's an advantage, for whatever reason, just like the XBRR had. (why is ducati limited to the 848?) Why? Because they want more fans in the stands, and they're hoping an American machine will help. Plus Buell has been a long-time supporter of racing in the US, posting big contingency money for such a "little" manufacturer. They've asked to play in the big leagues, and have been given the opportunity WITHOUT having to develop the ubiquitous 600cc I-4. They've TRIED to create a more level playing field with weight & hp limits, with the hope of producing closer racing, so that more people will WATCH THE RACING. | ||
| Elvis |
The Buell motor is a Rotax. They've no small number of years in engine development either. How many years do they have developing the Helicon engine on a race track? The Helicon engine isn't like anything they've ever done before. If Yamaha introduced a 72 degree V-Twin with a unique valve system, it would take them a loooong time to get it to the level of performance of the inline 4. Which illustrates another problem with the currently accepted mind-set of only using displacement to define race limits. The Japanese bikes that dominate racing have no incentive to experiment with different designs because they'd be too far behind the curve in racing. That's left us with very little engine variety in performance bikes over the past 30 years and we, the consumers, suffer for it. Let's take Buell out of the discussion for a minute and just consider the Ducati 848 against the Japanese competition. The 848 is an OUTSTANDING bike. It's race-bred on one of the best race chasis in the world. It's got Showa suspension, single-sided swing-arm, dual disc brakes etc. etc. etc. Against 105 HP stock Japanese bikes, the 134 HP stock 848 should blow them away, shouldn't it? The Duc's got more displacement, more power, better components - a $15,000 race bike against much less expensive competition . . . it wouldn't seem fair, would it? But look at the results. The two Ducs that entered were just about at the bottom of the pack. If that doesn't illustrate that there's a lot more than meets the eye to the capabilities of the top Japanese teams and it will take some creativity to mix things up a little bit and make AMA racing interesting again, I don't know how else to show it. And, again, keep in mind, this was going to be a horsepower limited series, but the Japanese teams pushed for this format over that one. If this format gives an advantage to the Buells and other twins, how can they complain now? (Message edited by elvis on March 13, 2009) | ||
| Benm2 |
The Helicon is an evolution of the Aprila twin, with which they've had extensive experience with in WSB. They know racing engines. Anyone who believes that the 600's are making 105 RWHP in race trim needs to be ignored. It's like beleiving in the easter bunny as an adult. The two riders on Ducati's? Maybe they're just slow? Hey, I'm a fan of the new format. Let Mladin whine all he wants, but even his race was more interesting than the past few years. | ||
| 4cammer |
I am sure they would like all feedback sent to: superbikeplanet@gmail.com w/Buells at Daytona as the subject!  | ||
| Fast1075 |
Well put Elvis!!! Besides...due to the laws of physics, in an all out horsepower challenge, a twin cylinder engine of the same displacement as a four cylinder engine cannot develop equal "horsepower" within any real or usable design constraints, with the primary limiting factor being piston speed...you simply cannot turn enough rpm and keep the twin together....exotic materials can be used to narrow the gap a bit, but not if there is a production rule...it's like in F1...the engines were being turned in the 20K+ rpm range and were very short lived and mega expensive...the new rules force lower rpm to increase engine life...back in the day for example, the Honda GP bikes of the 60's...some of those turned in the 22K rpm range..all due to the miniscule stroke numbers combined with relatively huge bore size...allowing a "large" combustion chamber and "large" valve sizing... | ||
| Court |
>>>The Helicon is an evolution of the Aprilia twin That is an absolutely inaccurate statement. In fact there are legal agreements in place prohibiting Rotax from "transferring" any Buell technology to other motors they make. In addition, the press releases that Rotax issued would support that this motor was the result of several years of "start with a blank sheet" collaboration. There were far too many Buell engineers in Austria for this to have simply been a "copy" of the Aprilia. | ||
| Benm2 |
Court, I respectfully disagree. While Buell engineers were obviously involved in the motor development,I'd guess the early focus had to be on (1) getting the belt drive setup adapted and (2) modifying the engine to fit the existing XB chassis, including intake & exhaust layout. The nuts & bolts of crank design, journal size, connecting rod design, case stiffness, head gasket design, cam angles, cam journal bearing size & layout, valve guide sizing, bucket arrangement, valve stem diameter, piston ring arrangement, etc. were likely from Rotax' large engineering database. There's a REASON they went to Rotax, to get access to what THEY knew about making motors and to ADD TO it with Buell's resources. | ||
| Court |
>>>were likely from Rotax' large engineering database. No doubt it helped, but Buell brought (and protected) a good deal of the technology. | ||
| Mutation_racer |
When I first rode the 1125R at pocono, we were in a class room to talk about the engine and when they broke out the specs on the engine that buell had brought to rotax it was as big as the Harley parts catalog. So for thoughs how think that this is not truely a buell engine YOUR WRONG. GO BUELL | ||
| Reepicheep |
Good point Ben, but I bet that engineering database is just as closely related to Honda motors as it is to Aprilia. The technology seems to be getting very standardized these days, as everyone is getting *so* good that the constraints are now physics and materials. The real value of Rotax was probably in having people, teams, and processes that are mature and experienced in bringing new engines to market... that was likely worth its weight in gold. | ||
| Benm2 |
It might be close to Honda's, but I bet Honda's not selling (and Buell's not buying!) I wonder how much better they can get. The tech is standardized, but every year they're faster... Anyway, isn't this supposed to be about how there's a certain media bias against Buell? | ||
| Fast1075 |
Lets get back on topic...Mr. Ohlin is a weenie....send him a pack of WhineyPads. | ||
| Slaughter |
Anybody remember Honda in Superbike? Twins? DuHamel? RC51? - rules favoring the big twin? (1000cc v. 750cc) Just asking. THOSE rules allowed Ducati to really shine. (Message edited by slaughter on March 13, 2009) | ||
| Sd26 |
How about the old 250 and Formula One classes in the AMA that allowed larger displacement 4 strokes against 2 strokes? | ||
| Court |
>>>The real value of Rotax was probably in having people, teams, and processes that are mature and experienced in bringing new engines to market... that was likely worth its weight in gold. One of the early "deliverables" typically in such a collaboration is developing the . . . well, the collaborative work process, who's doing what and so forth. I'm setting out to be part of a team on a new $1,000,000,000 power plant right here in NYC that we're starting. One of the first hurdles we jumped was communication protocols. Now we've got attorney's involved and I'll be spending the weekend reading a real estate easement (essentially a 178 page document allowing them to park on my property subject to 4,812 conditions ) so things will slow down now. Buell did a lot of the physics and theory and I suspect BRP/Rotax brought a lot of "okay, now knowing that . . what can REALLY be built" valuable experience. | ||
| Fast1075 |
What would be interesting is how much power can be gotten out of a Helicon if it is REALLY leaned on! | ||
| Gregtonn |
Ben, Simple physics requires some similarities in V2 engine design. There are, however, very significant design differences that show the Buell Helicon is not an evolution of the Aprillia engine. Many of the design aspects that you point out as being the same are significantly different. I.e.: …case stiffness… -The Aprillia uses a more “brute force” approach, more and thicker material resulting in heavier cases. -The Buell uses strategically placed ribs to add stiffness and reduce weight. …cam journal bearing size & layout… -The Buell layout uses a single chain to drive the intake cam with a gear drive to the exhaust cam. This requires a significant difference in cam bearing setup. …bucket arrangement… -The Buell uses F1 style finger followers not the usual “shim and bucket” design. I could go on but hopefully you are beginning to understand. G edit; Brian to Ben-I apologize for getting it wrong. (Message edited by Gregtonn on March 14, 2009) | ||
| Petebueller |
When Erik Buell came to Australia for the launch of the 1125R he told of some of his experiences with the engine development. Erik worked with Porche on the development of the motor now used in the VRod. This was to be new Buell water-cooled motor at one stage. Porche had a fairly rigid way of working. The first session were all to do with non disclosure agreements and legals. All perfectly fine for high quality engineering company, but I gather very different to the way that Buell usually moved. Erik quoted the expression "this is not the way we do things Mr Buell". My impression was that this summed up some of his experience on the project. Perhaps because of weight, size and maybe power and price the Porche motor did not end up in a Buell. Instead he went across the border into Austria where we expected to be working with Rotax in the same formulated method as he had with Porche. It was totally different. The first meeting got down to the design. Erik set parameters for a motor that produced torque from low revs. He said that in the first few meetings they nailed the basic characteristics of the engine design and I guess they worked from there to refine these. He recounted an episode where they had a problem with a undesirable engine characteristic. During a technical meeting Erik suggested a change to the piston design that he had implemented on a race car with a similar problem. At the next day's meeting Rotax reported that they had built the pistons and tested them and they still were not quite what they wanted. Erik Buell commented that he though the Buell corporation was small an able to respond quickly, but h had never seen anything like these guys. I think that this is what the Rotax has brought to the collaboration with Buell | ||
| Court |
Like the Buell and Harley-Davidson collaboration, Rotax has benefited from working with Buell. It's what we entrepreneurs call "win-win". Good description of the process Pete. Porsche (please don't tell the folks at the launch I am headed to in 20 minutes) can be rigid and closed minded. Erik has worked with Porsche prior to the VROD (although it could be argued it was related) and the result was a motor that weighed and cost more than the target weight of the motorcycle. | ||
| Ferris_von_bueller |
Btw, Mr. Ohlin, it's "resistance is futile" not "resistance is useless" | ||
| Redbuelljunkie |
I think "Resistance is Useless" is more appropriate- for the Dalek that he is...  | ||
| Jimidan |
I forgot who said this in an earlier post, but: "I think he sees it as most people who are not extreme fans of Buell motorcycles.Buell was given almost twice the displacement,no weight penalty for having a HP advantage.What do you expect?" Well, I loved seeing (and hearing) the Buells out there in the big race as much as anyone. I was thrilled when Danny was on pole and Shawn came in 5th, and all the Buells (including Brian's) finished the race. In remember telling the wife that that was a Buell on the pole, and her amazement..."A Buell...you are s****** me!" Nope, honey, right there it is. She was more convinced after a few laps when the pod fell off, but that is a different story. It was an historic race in many aspects, and one of the best I had seen in recent memory. Danny Eslick bonded to that bike like a new puppy to a freckle-faced boy. Let's face it, Buell fans have been waiting for this day for a loooong time. But there are those like the guy above, who lament the fact that the rules allowed Buells to carry almost twice the displacement of the 600's (with the same weight) and 1/3 more than the Ducati's, even though the little Duck has basically the same engine design. This, my friend, was based on politics rather than some obscure fairness doctrine. This IS the A(merican)MA, and we deserve to have some kind of home Court advantage....you gotta problem wid' 'dat? Oh well... And you have to admit it, even if you aren't one of those naysayers who hates America, those rules were a major coup and that always means bellyaching from the UJM crowd. Such Pussies! "Its not FAIR!" they whine. Who cares? But I ask you, what could be more American? It is a classic example of how money, great lobbying and influence trumps impartiality every time, at least in this country. We see it happening on Wall Street and in the hallowed halls of government routinely, and it is what makes America great. That is why we are in the position that we are in today...leaders of the free world! Besides, does it really matter that Buell has been given this so-called "advantage" as long as the bikes are basically competitive with each other? Ever heard of a handicap in golf? Same thing, but you don't hear golfers crying and complaining about that, do you? Racing motorcycles is primarily a mechanical SHOW, not a strict athletic competition like basketball, football or boxing, where the body IS the machine. That is not to say that most of the riders aren't great athletes, because they are. But the main performer and true athlete is the bike. Let's not quibble over the nuances of the bikes, but just settle back and enjoy the SHOW. Does it really matter if the athletes are on steroids, as long as all of them could have taken them? Anybody can buy steroids on the internet, so it is their own fault if they don't take them. Besides, it makes for a better SHOW, because that is what matters. You pay the money to see the SHOW...which will go on! Like has been said here before, if Buell has been determined to have too large of a so-called advantage, then the rules will be tweaked to bring it more in line. That does not seem to be the case as determined by the results in Daytona. This is going to be a really good show...I can feel it. Let's not get all hung up on the minutia of displacement, torque and weight and all. Trust the promoters to keep everything fair and balanced and just enjoy it...they have your best interest at heart. And be sure to call GEICO for all of your powersports insurance needs, and check out our, er ah, the website at: http://moto-racing.speedtv.com/article/ama-sbk-esl ick-joins-geico-powersports-rmr-buell/ Here is a fun fact for you: Did you know the reason why GEICO is in all caps? It is because it’s actually an acronym, which stands for Government Employees Insurance Company. GEICO used to just do insurance for government employees, before expanding to the general public. It’s actually a subsidiary of Berkshire Hathaway, headed by Warren Buffett. When you talk about corporate involvement in motorcycle racing, it doesn’t get a lot bigger than this. | ||
| Anonymous |
A bit of inside information on a couple of topics. BenM2, the engine shares very little with the Aprilia Mille. In fact it shares so little with anything else Rotax makes that it was quite difficult for them. They are used to being very modular in their designs, and share many parts, for example their ATV engine uses the Mille heads, etc. etc. The Buell 1125 is unique. Regarding the main topic, AMA Daytona SportBike rules, they have been set up based on pre-race testing so that all the bikes are competitive. They have said they will change rules after three or four races if any brand is too competitive. The Buells have some allowances in the rules, as does every brand, based on what the manufacturers asked for and in some cases what DMG/AMA thought they needed. However, not all bikes at Daytona were at the rule limit. Our goal at Buell is to come up with a very low-cost and reliable solution that can be competitive all season with little maintenece for a privateer. At Daytona, every Buell had a completely untouched stock engine other than a mechanical slipper clutch. They had the stock pipe offered for sale by Buell, and the ECU and swingarm kit. None of them were anywhere near the allowed weight limit, Shawn's bike weighed 413 lbs with one liter of fuel in it. So what we have is near stock motorcycles racing against potentially the trickest "production" 600's the Japanese factory race teams can build. The AMA complemented us on how we were doing exactly what they hoped for, in that we hadn't taken advantage of the rules, but had come with affordable parts and advisors and made them available to absolutely every Buell rider there. Our goal is to use as little as necessary to be competitive. We'll know more after we run a few more races on different types of tracks, but hopefully we have a solid low cost package that will pull in more teams and sponsors. If we can be competitive at all the tracks with what we ran at Daytona, that'll be cool, and we'll ask the AMA to back off on what we are theoretically allowed. However, if we need to dip deeper into what we are allowed, then we'll do so. If you knew anything about the way the Japanese factories work, they typically ran wildly tricked out bikes in privateer classes, with plenty of on site engineers, etc. At Daytona, Yamaha's pits looked like a NASA facility. Their bikes were very refined, as well as being the quickest, and they won. If they dominate every race, we'll see what the AMA does. Hopefully they will do what is necessary to make all brands competitive at a low cost level, not force manufacturers and teams to pour money in to chase the leader. Back to Buell. The bottom line is that to support all classes of Buell racing worldwide, Buell has three people working in the race shop, two guys handling taking parts orders, shipping them out and bringing parts to the track, and two engineers. Rotax has absolutely no involvement at all, nor does Harley-Davidson. So that's seven people. Ducati has 200 people in their race shop - Lord knows how many Yamaha/Honda/etc have. Maybe the rules should be written around dollars rather than cc's. If that happened, we could win a world championship! It'll probably take a while for this little team of Buell guys to get free enough from the Daytona SportBike stuff to work on a American Superbike configuration, but that is the next goal. | ||
| Jerry_haughton |
Anon, great post, thank you, and congrats on Buell's showing at Daytona - this is gonna be fun! Ferris | ||
| Diablo1 |
At Daytona, Yamaha's pits looked like a NASA facility. Their bikes were very refined, as well as being the quickest, and they won. If they dominate every race, we'll see what the AMA does. Hopefully they will do what is necessary to make all brands competitive at a low cost level, not force manufacturers and teams to pour money in to chase the leader. So what are you really saying? Is the Yamaha farther from stock "off the showroom floor" than the Buell. In what way? The rules state exactly which parts can be modified, and there aren't many modifications allowed. Having a large team doesn't mean the bike is stuffed with exotic parts. But if you know differently, just spell it out.} | ||
| Davegess |
The Yamaha had things like custom built steps to allow the pit crew to get over the wall a touch faster. They spent a ton of money just on pit stops with custom tools and such. This is fully within the rules but it shows just how much money they have to spend; money that privateers will never have. Those bikes are pushed as close to the edge of what the rules allow. They are also designed from the beginning as race bikes and that makes a large difference in how much power they have. Regardless of what power the stock bikes make they all seem to be about the same on acceleration and top speed so either the Buells are seriously down on power or th e600s are up. | ||
| Xb984r |
Annony,none of the 600's could be competitive with the Buell if the weren't tricked out, afterall Buell does have twice the displacement and 40 HP advantage stock.Sorry I don't see it as impressive that the Buell could be raced in this class, I mean after all, everyone claims the rules are to allow "privateers"to be competitive, but thats only if they race the Buells. | ||
| Imonabuss |
Here's how I see it, being an old racer who has felt for years that AMA racing had turned into a Japanese factory advertisement of utter BS. "New 2008 GSXR-1000 wins Daytona", when these bikes were $500,000 works specials tarted up to look like the bike some bozo buys for $12,000. I want races to be about the riders, not the bikes, and the AMA gets it now. Daytona SportBike is not about how impressive any bike's specs are, it's about competitive racing, get it? Of course the Buell can make more power. It appears they are not set up to do so, but to run competitively. AMA Daytona SportBike is not about how far the dollars of technology are pushed, it's about having riders and teams to cheer about. I think it's cool that privateers on all kinds of brands were in the field, and were ahead of factory guys. I didn't see any push from Anony saying the Buells were tricked out or were supposed to be impressive. He (or she) was saying that they tried to get the bikes affordable and reliable. What I think is impressive is that Buell pulled in a sponsor like Geico that will help the sport. Maybe Buell gets the idea of a future for racing that is far beyond the spec sheet wars of the last 15 years, and I'm all for it. I think they'd also like to be racing in Superbike and probably in MotoGP, but don't have the money. But I suppose I could be wrong. Possibly Buell has a massive race facility with budgets of tens of millions and is just totally incompetent. If so, so be it. I still dug the heck out of the race at Daytona. | ||
| Rrrrrrrick |
Some of you are under illusions about both Jap and American bikes. Here are a few numbers from stock bikes on my dyno and our scales, all were street trim, oe exhaust bikes. Kaw ZX6R 2008 107 hp, 388 pounds, (wire jumped under seat) 4 less hp without wire jumped Yam 2008 R6 103 hp, 381 pounds Suzuki GSXR600 102 hp 378 pounds 2008 Buell 1125 129 hp, 426 pounds These were all customers bikes, most were low on fuel, low mileage bikes |
