| Author |
Message |
    
Ponti1
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 25, 2009 - 07:58 pm: | 
|
But the Buell is much prettier than the GSXR...Chicks dig it! |
Bikejunky
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 25, 2009 - 08:20 pm: |
|
+1 ponti1
still pisses me off that dealers are screwing the Buell brand and their own customers though! I buy Buell because #1 the bike's is AWESOME, but #2 because it's a product that is WORTH the price. Dealers who play the Metric $ game are only hurting their own customers and eventually Buell as a brand. (not to mention themselves) |
Stevasaurus
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 25, 2009 - 11:07 pm: |
|
"Dealers who play the Metric $ game are only hurting their own customers and eventually Buell as a brand. (not to mention themselves)"
It is not like they are doing this on '09 models. They are just trying to make the 08's go away. How long (in this economy especially) are they supposed to keep these bikes on the floor next to the current model year? At some point it is just better to liquidate. And anyone who buys now is already buying a year's depreciation, not to mention missing all the great seat time that you early adopters have had! |
Bikejunky
| | Posted on Thursday, February 26, 2009 - 04:27 pm: |
|
"At some point it is just better to liquidate. And anyone who buys now is already buying a year's depreciation, not to mention missing all the great seat time that you early adopters have had!"
Look at it from this perspective: According to NADA average retail on a USED 2008 Buell 1125R is $10,455.00
Now if there are dealers out there selling NEW 2008 Buell 1125R for $8000.00 what do you think that does to the value of the used market?
This is what happens: The 2008 Buell 1125R isn't worth an average used retail of $10,455.00, it's worth $6500.00. That dealer just forced the customer to as you put it "BUY DEPRECIATION" at 2X the normal rate. Even with $4000.00 down Joe Customer can't sell a ONE year old 1125R and get his pay off out of it.
Now YOU might ask who gets hurt by this?
The answer is Joe BUELL RIDER and YOU GUESSED IT Buell Motorcycle Company and All Buell Dealers because Joe Customer can't afford to buy the NEW 2009 1125CR that he wants and BUELL MOTORCYCLE COMPANY loses a unit sale, the Selling dealer loses a sale, and on top of that, the selling dealer loses the chance to EARN a current customer's service work as well as EARN the business of a NEW customer.
Now lets look at the New Market.
A NEW 1125R sells for $12,500.00 MSRP. Dealer makes enough money at that price to justify carrying the brand and in the long run to offer customers the SERVICE they Expect.
But because some dealers are out there selling 2008 bikes at 8000 his customers now think that in 6 months the bike will only bring an $8500.00 price tag new. (known as de-valuing a brand)
So take this over two or three years and even the dealers who want to offer great customer service won't be able to afford to invest in the personnel and training, the inventory (parts and accessories) and the culture that so many riders complain Buell dealers DON'T OFFER.
I guess what I am trying to point out is that there is a difference between getting a good deal and buying from a dealer who doesn't care about the Buell Brand or his Customers enough to make sure that he isn't hurting the Loyal Buell Customers all over the world.
If you currently own an 08 1125R and aren't pissed off that SOME dealers are doing this then maybe I am wrong about what Buell Riders really want. |
Xb984r
| | Posted on Thursday, February 26, 2009 - 05:26 pm: |
|
Bikejunky,what part of "08 bikes are still on the floor" do you not get.How long do you expect them to hold on to these bikes so your value stays up?You know how to solve this,build a bike that everyone wants. |
Stevasaurus
| | Posted on Thursday, February 26, 2009 - 05:33 pm: |
|
Where is ANYONE getting NADA, KBB, on any vehicle right now? NADA also says clean trade-in on my Mustang is over $16,000. I couldn't even sell it private party for that. The economy SUCKS. Resale guides haven't compensated.
You make it sound like they were doing this all along. What's worse? Pricing the few '08's left to blow out and get them the hell out of there, or leaving them on the floor next to the '09's so Joe Customer can think, "Wow, this bike is so lame that they can't even turnover their inventory." Then the dealer has his money tied up in inventory that won't move. That's a plenty good de-motivator for a dealer right there, especially when sales are already slow because the economy SUCKS. At least when the dealership goes out of business, he can say he had his pride?
I am sure the dealers currently charing $8000 were charging $11,995 for most of '08, just like you wanted them to do. Like I said before, if these dealers that torque you so badly were doing it currently to '09's (I know metric dealers that ARE doing that right now), I would be on board with you 100%! |
Bikejunky
| | Posted on Thursday, February 26, 2009 - 05:35 pm: |
|
So you are ok with your new bike being worth exactly HALF what you paid for it 6 months later, not because it's a crap bike, but because the dealer who sold it to you decided that it was worth less than invoice six months later? |
Dentguy
| | Posted on Thursday, February 26, 2009 - 05:48 pm: |
|
Bikejunky,
What do YOU think the dealer should do with the bikes that he can't sell? They aren't moving without dumping the price.
You can complain all day and say the dealer doesn't care about the Buell brand and his customer, but he is in the business of selling bikes so that hopefully he can then service them. If the bikes are already over a year old and not moving, I'll ask again, what should he do? |
Brapbrapbrap
| | Posted on Thursday, February 26, 2009 - 05:59 pm: |
|
I don't understand why anyone would be angry at the dealer for losing money. I'm sure they are not excited to do so.
It's not the dealer setting the value it's the market place, supply and demand.
At this point a smart dealer MUST dump an 08 models as 2010 models will be here before you know it. He can lose money now or risk losing more later as they will not go up in value.
The 2010 models likely to have a lower MSRP as typical with model cycles unless there is a design refreshening. |
Bikejunky
| | Posted on Thursday, February 26, 2009 - 07:58 pm: |
|
There are many ways that a dealer can offer incentive to purchase without hurting the brand. Things like cost of ownership eg. offering free extended service, free services, consumables, safety gear.
I don't know about you but I certainly wouldn't mind knowing that the next two services on my bike weren't going to be coming out of my pocket and that my bike had been serviced by Buell Tech meaning there would be no question, or knowing that I won't have to ride sketch tires for a month because I screwed up and went went two hours over on my cell minuets.
Things like this cost the dealer less than dumping the price meaning they can still offer real customer service and it doesn't hurt the owners in areas like resale and loan value (very important because banks loan on NADA values, which in April/prime selling season, are going to plummet, and I don't know many banks that loan on negative equity keeping in mind that between 40 and 60 percent of trade ins ARE still under lien)
heck man I am just trying to offer up ideas that would help Buell Motorcycles be more like their chunky brothers in the value arena. I would just like to see the brand grow rather than wither. |
Reepicheep
| | Posted on Thursday, February 26, 2009 - 08:49 pm: |
|
Buy a bike to ride it, and pay what you think its worth up front. Then ride it into the ground. Anyone buying a motorcycle for "resale value" is making an awful investment. |
Brapbrapbrap
| | Posted on Thursday, February 26, 2009 - 09:02 pm: |
|
Bikejunky
Posted on Thursday, February 26, 2009 - 07:58 pm-
heck man I am just trying to offer up ideas that would help Buell Motorcycles be more like their chunky brothers in the value arena. I would just like to see the brand grow rather than wither.
That goes back to supply and demand. Most here like that the bike is sooooooo different thus smaller demand. |
Dentguy
| | Posted on Thursday, February 26, 2009 - 09:52 pm: |
|
heck man I am just trying to offer up ideas that would help Buell Motorcycles be more like their chunky brothers in the value arena. I would just like to see the brand grow rather than wither.
I can understand that.
Good ideas about the incentives, but most people (not all) are more concerned about the initial out of pocket bottom line or bottom line on their loan. When given the opportunity, most would choose to pay thousands less in money than to get thousands worth of future service work or products. |
Oddball
| | Posted on Friday, February 27, 2009 - 12:34 am: |
|
I've seen other Buell models a year or two old still sitting in the showrooms with their msrp or more tags. They didn't move before, not likely to now either without significant incentive. Such as the large price drop. 08's are heading for the 2 year old point in 1/3 of a year.
It would have done the dealers well to deal a bit last summer. They held to the full price + fees thinking the $675 gear deal would sweep them off the floor. No dice. This cycle could easily repeat with the 09's. |
Boogiman1981
| | Posted on Friday, February 27, 2009 - 04:33 am: |
|
sounds like some folks are pissed they didnt get as good a deal.
beside are bikes really investments? nope not really they are toys. |
Zac4mac
| | Posted on Friday, February 27, 2009 - 07:12 am: |
|
I paid a little over 13k to get the first privately owned 1125R on the road in Colorado.
(It was pointed out to me that BMC did some testing out here)
I love this bike and have no intention of selling.
A resale price of 4-6k just reinforces my intent.
15.9k with a big SEG. 
Z |
Sruzhyo
| | Posted on Friday, February 27, 2009 - 09:32 am: |
|
I hear both sides. I love my bike.
A move to japan forces the sale, as I can't get it on the road there. So what do I do? Take it in the shorts? Or keep a bike for two years that I can't ride?
<sigh> |
Redbuelljunkie
| | Posted on Friday, February 27, 2009 - 10:19 am: |
|
Bikejunky- you need some remedial business and economics classes, and a crash course on dealership floorplan expenses. The last thing on the planet a dealer wants to do is sell units below MSRP. The market is what dictates values, and right now 1125R's are not selling even at $7995... how is that the dealer's fault? Every day a bike sits on the floor it costs the dealer money- if you do not close the wound you will eventually bleed out... stop blaming the dealers. |
Bikejunky
| | Posted on Friday, February 27, 2009 - 11:38 am: |
|
If flooring is such a concern why would they be taking the flooring loss and the on top of it take large loss on the bike itself?
(Message edited by bikejunky on February 27, 2009) |
Brapbrapbrap
| | Posted on Friday, February 27, 2009 - 11:58 am: |
|
 |
Jaab4
| | Posted on Friday, February 27, 2009 - 12:32 pm: |
|
brapbrapbrap and Buell junie hit the nail on the head as to why we have to dump these bikes. We are also owners of this model and paid close to retail you think it doesnt hurt us?? If the magazines and the forums didnt roast this great bike (now with updates) do you really think we would still have over half of our original order. |
D_adams
| | Posted on Friday, February 27, 2009 - 12:48 pm: |
|
I'm guessing that some of us are NOT in a recession right now? I paid full price for mine in June and it's still worth every penny I paid for it. I could care less what the market is doing at the moment, I got what I wanted for what was a fair price. NADA means shit to me since I have absolutely NO interest in selling this machine. I bought it to ride it, not worry about what it would be worth 1 year later. |
Chadhargis
| | Posted on Friday, February 27, 2009 - 12:57 pm: |
|
I'm a free market sort of guy.
Just because you put a price tag on something doesn't mean that's what it's worth.
If the market demand for the 1125 was REALLY strong, then selling for MSRP (or more) would be no problem. But the market is soft for all bikes...especially Buells, which aren't mainstream bikes.
So the market will dictate the price. Any dealer, or manufacturer, who tries to artificially inflate the price of their goods isn't going to be successful.
I bought my Ulysses when it was new in November 2005. Demand was high. Dealers were struggling to get them. Waiting lists were in place, deposits were being taken. No dealers near me even had one. I had to drive 16 hours round trip to Florida to pick my bike up....and I paid $9995 for it...when other dealers were charging full MSRP.
I don't think any dealer in their right mind would sell a high demand unit for such a low price if they didn't feel they couldn't move it.
Either they didn't know how high the demand was, or they are a "volume" dealer who's business model is based on lower profit on higher volume (the Wal-Mart philosophy).
Some dealers want to make big profit on a few units (the boutique approach).
Whatever the approach, it doesn't effect the real value of the bike, which is determined by the market. |
Tnxbrider
| | Posted on Friday, February 27, 2009 - 01:18 pm: |
|
If you can buy from a local dealer at a fair price then you will get great value. Lowest price is not best deal. The few $7995 buys that you could find will have zero support for you. In fact you may have just put them out of the business of Buells all together.
Chad is correct that the market conditions dictates the price at least to a certain extent... but be careful of who you make bleed... you may kill them.
Now who wants a Great deal on a Great motorcycle at a fair price?
T |
Chadhargis
| | Posted on Friday, February 27, 2009 - 04:04 pm: |
|
I agree Tom....and I've told you the story of my Ulysses purchase.
When the time comes to purchase another Buell, I'll be coming to see you. You're a good man, a motorcycle nut like the rest of us, and I'm sure we can work out a deal that's fair for both of us.
The lowest price isn't always the best deal. There is something to be said for supporting the guy who's gonna be there to support you. A symbiotic relationship.
For those of you who don't know who Tnxbrider is....he's the lustrous potentate, grand pubah, chief cook, and head bottle washer for Bumpus HD/Buell in Mufreesboro, TN.
Even though I bought my bike out of state, from a deep discount dealer, Tom and his staff have always treated me well.
I refer anyone looking for a Harley or Buell to them because I believe they offer superior customer service.
You know a dealer is committed to knowing his product and his customers when he and the service manager are both members of Badweb. 
I'm waiting on my lottery pay day and the red CR is mine! Oh yes, it will be mine. |
Bikejunky
| | Posted on Friday, February 27, 2009 - 04:51 pm: |
|
I agree that market conditions do set prices. In fact I was not advocating selling a non current MY bike at full msrp if the market demand wasn't there. I an mainly advocating that if a dealer is truly keeping his customers in mind as much as he is himself that the dealer would not be price cutting just to try to move machines. All I am saying is that the dealerships who are out there supporting you as buell customers and out there supporting the buell brand think about the after effects of cut rate price selling before they go and just cut your feet out from under you by making the asset you purchased and may want to eventually trade/sell to get a new one worth nothing.
Long story short, Please support the dealers who are looking out for you because as TNxbrider pointed out
"If you can buy from a local dealer at a fair price then you will get great value. Lowest price is not best deal. The few $7995 buys that you could find will have zero support for you. In fact you may have just put them out of the business of Buells all together.
Chad is correct that the market conditions dictates the price at least to a certain extent... but be careful of who you make bleed... you may kill them.
Now who wants a Great deal on a Great motorcycle at a fair price?" |
Dynasport
| | Posted on Friday, February 27, 2009 - 04:54 pm: |
|
It's not just the 1125rs or the Buells. Heck, even my HD value is in the toilet. That is one more reason for me to keep it. If I could get a decent trade in value, or even a good price selling it myself I'd probably have a new bike now. But the price of my bike, just like that of practically every other bike out there has dropped like a brick.
I feel for the dealers having to cut prices so much. I am no businessman, but in college I worked for a pretty successful one. There were times he cut prices on something below what I knew he paid for it. I finally asked him about it and he said he would rather have the money he could get out of the item now than for it to continue to sit in his store in hopes he could sell it for more later. He could then pay his bills and buy items people wanted.
So, from a business standpoint for some it is better to get rid of the bikes no one seems to want at MSRP to pay bills and buy stuff people will want at MSRP. Does that mean that some dealers may be getting out of Buells altogether. Probably, but not the ones really committed to Buell in the first place. There are still a few dealers like that around. I was in one yesterday and I tell you what, if I ever am able to buy another bike, I won't buy without visiting them first and giving them every chance to sell me one. |
Tnxbrider
| | Posted on Friday, February 27, 2009 - 04:57 pm: |
|
Thank you BikeJunkie +1, you too Chad And +2 for the commercial.
Headed to Daytona to see some races next week?
T |
Oddball
| | Posted on Saturday, February 28, 2009 - 02:28 am: |
|
Saw an '08 zx10r at a dealer the other day marked down about 3k from msrp. Everyone is hurting for sales.
I have seen an even lower 1125r price advertised but it was a come on. Had the nice "*" next to it. The fine print saying "sale price after $3k cash or trade". |
Gentleman_jon
| | Posted on Saturday, February 28, 2009 - 06:38 am: |
|
Quick reality check, OK?
Prices are set by the market, supply and demand.
The 2008 Buell was an imperfect product, and was severely, and rightly, criticized in the press.
Buell subsequently solved most of these problems in the 2009 model, which was widely reported in the press as a much improved product.
Therefore the demand for the 2008 is low, because the 2009 is available in numbers to meet the demand, and is a much improved bicycle.
Who in their right mind would pay the same for a 2008 as a 2009?
Answer for the economically challenged :
Nobody, that's who!
Thus, in order to sell these bikes, get the cash, and buy bikes that people want, dealers reduce prices. Makes perfect sense. Happens every day in every business.
The villain, if there is one, is not the dealers, it is our much beloved Buell Motor Company, which released a new model before it was ready, and folks decided that that wasn't what they wanted.
Simple as that, my brothers.
|
Heliconcr
| | Posted on Saturday, February 28, 2009 - 07:30 am: |
|
DING DING DING DING!!! WE HAVE A WINNER FOLKS!!! Gentleman jon is absolutely correct, its as easy as that. Oh yeah, by the way, lets all quit whining about how our bikes are losing value. We all need to take a good long look around and see what ELSE is losing value and at the RATE THAT IT IS!!! Now i'm not trying to be Doom and Gloom, but at least we have our bikes and are not having to worry about the finances of buying another toy.
Brett
(Message edited by heliconcr on February 28, 2009) |
Tnxbrider
| | Posted on Saturday, February 28, 2009 - 10:45 am: |
|
If your out of work at least you have extra time to go riding...
"Brother can you spare a dime? I need some gas and some sticky tires and..." |
Oddball
| | Posted on Saturday, February 28, 2009 - 12:15 pm: |
|
"For an 1125 today, I'll gladly pay you tuesday"
Couldn't find any good copy of the Bugs Bunny cartoon where he takes a penguin to the south pole and keeps running into the poor guy asking if he can spare some money for a guy down on his luck. |
|
