| Author | Message | ||
     Mdr5230 |
I have an extra Magura master cylinder it has a 13mm diameter piston, Will this work with stock xb12 front brakes? I think stock is 1/2 inch thats pretty close right? Any info would be great. | ||
| Eboos |
13mm is too small. I think that you need 16 - 17mm for a radial master cylinder. I have a 17mm Nissin radial on my bike. | ||
| Mdr5230 |
so piston size is a factor when going from conventional to radial. I wasn't sure. Must be less travel in a radial than con. I bought that for an Muz and never used it. So I should be looking for 16-17mm. | ||
| Eboos |
If I am not mistaken, 13mm is what you would use on a 2 piston single caliper setup, maybe a 4 piston for supermoto bikes. Brembo makes a 16mm MC, and Nissin makes a 17mm. That should be good for a 6 piston single disk setup. Yes, piston sizes are not equal between conventional and radial master cylinders. Ask Al at American Sportbike and he will help you get what you need. | ||
| Mdr5230 |
hey thanks eboos. You just saved me a whole lot of brake bleeding. | ||
| Id073897 |
I tried 16 mm brembo, is too large. No improvement compared to stock. | ||
| Eboos |
http://www.americansportbike.com/shoponline/ccp0-p rodshow/16106.html | ||
| Id073897 |
Then give the nissin a try. Can talk for the brembo only, and my feeling confirmed the theory: piston area 13mm diameter: 6.5*6.5*PI = 132 mm^2 piston area 16mm diameter: 8*8*PI = 201 mm^2 radial/axial brake leverage ratio: 25/20 = 1.25 "virtual axial" piston area of the radial pump: 201/1.25 = 160 mm^2 "virtual axial" piston diameter of the radial pump: sqrt(160/PI)*2 = 14.3 mm The 16 mm radial brembo cylinder feels like a 14.3 mm axial master cylinder. 160/132 = 1.2 => 20% more force required for the same braking pressure. Also 20% less piston movement required to displace the same volume of brake fluid. This makes the brake feel "harder". | ||
| Eboos |
I've had my 17mm Nissin for 2 full seasons so far. One season was split between mostly street and some track, the second season was all track. I haven't had any trouble with this MC at all. I don't know the math behind this, but I will try to describe the feeling. With one or two fingers you can easily pull the lever about a quarter way through it's travel until it firms up and you have your initial grab of the brake rotor. Then by applying more force, but without much lever travel, you get greater braking force that is not twitchy and easily modulated. This is also consistent time after time. The lever does not go past the half way point in it's range of travel. You can easily use 2 fingers without the lever hitting your other fingers. I also use Motol RBF600 blead with a manual bleeder from both the master cylinder and then the caliper. | ||
| Id073897 |
Then by applying more force, but without much lever travel, That's exactly what made the brake feel less "responsive"/"assessable" for me. That may be applicable for track use, but I didn't like it on the street. | ||
| Al_lighton |
Based on the measurements I made on the Nissin radial 17mm, which were a tad crude, I found that the leverage ratio was about 7:1 for the radial, and about 4:1 for the axial. Gunter, I'm guessing your 20 and 25 numbers were just the distance in mm from the pivot to the piston cam, but the 7:1 and 4:1 numbers I'm using above are the ratios of the distance from the pivot to the center of your fingers on the lever divided the distance from the pivot to the center of the piston cam. The location of the pivot relative to the hand center is longer on the radial than the axial, so I used the actual mechanical leverage ratios, not just the cam distances from the pivot. If we're talking the same thing, then your 1.25 leverage ratio on that Brembo is a 1.75 leverage ratio on the measurements I made on the Nissin 17mm. Doing the same piston equivalency calculation on the Nissin 17mm diameter (226mm^2 area) radial piston with the 1.75 ratio makes the equivalent piston diameter of 12.8mm, roughly equivalent to the axial 13mm. I asked one of my braking suppliers what the big deal with radial masters was, and why all the race bikes are moving that way. The answer I got didn't exactly give me warm fuzzies that radials are infinitely superior. I was basically told that the radials are stiffer, and that stiffer is better. Poking around the web, I found a write-up on a Ducati BBoard that seemed to correlate that. I won't say that the below is fact, but is seems to jive well with what my braking supplier told me. Take it for what its worth. Radial and conventional/axial master cylinders differ in the orientation of the piston relative to the handlebar and to the pull direction of the lever. The conventional design places the piston axis parallel to the handlebar and perpendicular to the lever pull direction. The radial design puts the piston axis parallel to the lever pull direction and perpendicular to the handlebar. Radial and axial master cylinders are functionally the same. The main advantage of the radial design per se is that it moves the lever pivot point inward toward the centerline of the bike so that the same pull force develops a smaller moment about the connection point to the handlebar. This reduction in bending moment results in less flexing of the master cylinder housing. Any reduction in flexing of brake parts such as in the lever, MC housing, brake lines, calipers and caliper mounts add up to better brakes with better feel (modulation.) Also, aftermarket radial designs are generally stiffer than the OEM designs because they are machined from alloy billet material. The main reason (other than for appearance and weight savings) that Ducati owners replace the factory set-up with a radial aftermarket unit is to obtain a different MC piston size (hydraulic ratio) and lever pivot point distance (mechanical ratio.) This allows you to selectively increase or decrease the amount of pull force required to develop the same force at the brake pads by using a larger or smaller MC piston diameter. This combined with a shorter or longer distance between the lever pivot point and the piston actuation link will shift the control to one of more power, or more sensitivity if you prefer. Keep in mind however, changing your stock master cylinder to an aftermarket radial design will NOT give you more braking power to help you stop sooner. A radial master cylinder with a different piston diameter and/or lever fulcrum-to-piston distance will only change the feel of the brakes at the lever. So keep in mind that Ducati chose a master cylinder size to give you the best modulation characteristics (feel, sensitivity and control) for your bike. Good modulation means good feedback to the rider during a stop. A good braking system needs to establish the closest linear relationship possible between the force applied to the brake lever and the actual deceleration of the bike. Stopping power is technically easy to achieve, but achieving it along with good proportional braking response is more difficult. This, I feel, is the major factor influencing braking quality. That’s not to say that the Ducati engineering department’s choice is best for all riders or riding conditions. The best choice for the track isn’t the best choice for the street. Different riders have different preferences and we’re all adaptable. A rider is able to compensate for one performance drawback to gain an advantage with another. But again, it's situational dependent; a braking system that gives repeated stops from 150mph with the force application of one finger is not necessarily optimum for a 40mph panic stop in traffic. Even though a rider is adaptive to a braking system's general behavior doesn't mean that in an emergency that he'll use a light one-finger pull to stop. So let’s move on to your choices. First, there’s a different master cylinder size requirement for single rotor systems than for dual rotor systems. A dual rotor set-up has a lot more caliper pistons to move so a larger volume of hydraulic fluid has to be moved by the master cylinder piston. Also, since different Ducati models have different size calipers and rotors you can’t always translate a recommended master cylinder size to another setup. A master cylinder size designation is written AAxBB where AA is the diameter of the piston in mm, BB is the fulcrum-to-piston distance in mm. The master cylinder piston diameter is chosen based on the number and size of the caliper pistons. A fulcrum-to-piston distance affects two things: the amount of force needed at the lever, and the distance that the lever needs to be pulled through (to displace and compress the same amount of hydraulic fluid which in turns forces the caliper pistons against the rotor discs) to yield the SAME stopping power. Single Disc The Brembo aftermarket radial 16mm diameter master cylinders offer you the choice of a brake lever fulcrum-to-piston distance of either 16mm or 18mm. The stock Brembo lever has a 16mm dimension. So your choice is either 16x16 or 16x18. From the geometry, a 18mm lever will need to be pulled a 11% shorter distance than a 16mm lever but will at the same time require more lever force than a 16mm to stop the same distance. Dual Disc The Brembo aftermarket radial 19mm diameter master cylinders offer you the choice of a brake lever fulcrum-to-piston distance of either 16mm, 18mm or 20mm. The stock lever is 16mm. So your choice is either 19x16, 19x18 or 19x20. 19x16 (stock) requires the least lever effort but the longest pull distance for the best modulation. 19x18 requires 11% lighter pull and 11% longer pull distance than the 19x20 MC. More feel (better modulation characteristics) than the 19x20 19x20 requires the most lever force but the shortest pull. More like a trigger action. Some riders think that this short-pull trigger action means that they have "better" brakes, but they don't - at least not for all riding conditions. What they do get is the same braking power with poorer modulation (feel) characteristics. Good for the track perhaps, but often dangerous on the street, especially in the wet. In an emergency, most of us have the instinct to grab a brake hard. So if you value a better feel, when choosing between the 19x18 and the 19x20 for the street, go for the 19X18. Better still, stay with Ducati’s choice, 19x16. On the other hand, some prefer their lever hard. So again, I'm not suggesting that every rider will have the same preference in a braking system's modulation characteristics. Depending on your preference (or need) you can have brakes with an initial vague feeling, a strong initial bite, or something in between. You can select pads that have better high temperature behavior. On a race bike you can select brake pad and rotor material that will survive a race without needing replacement, but on the street, materials need to be more durable and function under less severe braking conditions and more varied weather conditions.. Seemed like a pretty decent writeup, so I quoted it from http://www.ducati.ms/forums/showthread.php?t=27159 Note that the Nissin radial is a cast design just like the axial one is, it's not a machined billet piece. But it IS lighter, but probably only half a Big-Mac's worth of weight. Al (Message edited by al_lighton on February 27, 2009) | ||
| Id073897 |
What they do get is the same braking power with poorer modulation (feel) characteristics. Good for the track perhaps, but often dangerous on the street, especially in the wet. In an emergency, most of us have the instinct to grab a brake hard. That's exactly my point. The human brain and the hand's sense system is remarkebly bad in comparing forces, but much better in measuring movement. Therefore the sensing system is supported by extended lever action. | ||
| Mdr5230 |
you guys have brought up great points. the truth is there is nothing wrong with the stock master and res. We just get caught up in the bling and the latest bling is radial master with the urine cup. In ten years it will be something else. How much advantage does it give you driving on the street, not much and most likely none to a newbie. sometimes its hard to beat stock. I just had one laying around and thought it might fit. I'll keep it for my mz . great information on piston sizing and pressure equations. thanks matt | ||
| Frenchebuellman |
I replaced mine with a BERINGER BR12 I assure you that the top  |
