| Author | Message | ||
     Mad_doctor |
How about "BUELL, American Engineered motorcycles". I think it would prove to the world that we still have the process refined. It's still pretty cool that these designs are being copied all over the world. I have an early 1946 Dodge truck, that says, "MADE IN THE U.S.A." stamped into the grill, right under the dodge name. This truck was made for the war effort, so it also may have gone overseas, but the war ended first. | ||
| Hangetsu |
<<So Toyota cars built in Kentucky should be called American Cars?>> Maybe so. According to a Toyota mechanic friend of mine (this comment was made a few years back,mind you)the Toyota's built in the USA are, with few exceptions "crap" compared to those built in Japan. He said, the number of warranty repairs owing to sloppy assembly required on American built Toyotas was about 10 to every 1 Japanese built vehicle; and this was back when there were still far more Japanese built vehicles on the road. (Message edited by hangetsu on January 24, 2009) (Message edited by hangetsu on January 24, 2009) | ||
| Hangetsu |
Not to be misunderstood, I love my Buell and part of what I love about it is the fact that it's American made. I almost feel that the Buells are more exotic than any other bike on the road BECAUSE they are American made. However, I can have confidence in the quality of my Buell because I can be relatively certain that the level of integrity, mindfulness, and the genuine passion for what they're doing is a bit higher in the Buell employee than what you'll find in the average American auto worker. With the exception of full-size pick-ups, there's virtually no American auto product I'd put my faith in. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Maybe so. According to a Toyota mechanic friend of mine (this comment was made a few years back,mind you)the Toyota's built in the USA are, with few exceptions "crap" compared to those built in Japan. He said, the number of warranty repairs owing to sloppy assembly required on American built Toyotas was about 10 to every 1 Japanese built vehicle; and this was back when there were still far more Japanese built vehicles on the road. That said, American made Toyotas, Hondas, and Nissans still have fewer incidences of mechanical issues per 1000 than their American marque competitors. | ||
| Mnrider |
Check on MSN autos the Mercury brand is about even with toyota and honda and way ahead of nissan in the repairs per 1000. | ||
| Mnrider |
3 year MSN quality survey repairs per 100 vehicles Lexus 120 Mercury 151 Caddy 155 Toyota 159 Acura 160 Buick 153 BMW 164 Lincoln 165 Honda 177 Jaguar 178 | ||
| Jammin_joules |
Thank you Mnrider for some reality. "Toyotas, Hondas, and Nissans still have fewer incidences of mechanical issues per 1000 than their American marque competitors." Is bunk and old prejudice of the 1980s and early 90s carried forward. ~jammer | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Wasn't bunk in my latest Consumer Reports auto digest. I guess they are carrying over old biases in their testing and CONSUMER SURVEYS? Not to say that American marques aren't improving, but to say that Toyotas, Hondas, and Nissans built stateside are below Ford, Chrysler, and GM is silly. | ||
| Froggy |
I love a good thread derailment. Consumer Reports is a horrible source for info. They have been beating into their readers heads for years that American cars are crap, so when they send you a survey, you are pre programmed into thinking American cars are crap and will give bad responses. CR even recently admitted this flaw in their data gathering but they still continue to do it. Mrider, do you have a link to the article? I don't see it posted on msn.com anymore. I am curious, because last time Buick was tied with Lexus for first. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
What is the value of CR unfairly bagging us manufacturers? If the cars have problems, they have problems. Are you a "CR's been bought off by the Japanese" conspiracy nut? Ratings companies seek to remain credible above all lest they become untrustworthy and irrelevant. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
It ain't a derailment. It's thread life support. The questions had been answered and the thread was dead. We're just keeping it alive.  | ||
| Hooper |
Do we still make Buicks? Hangetsu, you're right in many ways. There is a cultural difference between Japan and America, for better or for worse (frankly, I'd rather be an American), and it sometimes shows itself in the quality of products and processes. Those same "cultural differences" manifest themselves in different ways. Once again, I'm VERY glad I was born right here in America (Cincinnati, Ohio, to be exact). That said... HAPPY ROBERT BURNS DAY!!! SLAINTE MHATH!! HERE'S TO THE HAGGIS!! It was pretty chilly riding in the kilt today! | ||
| Hangetsu |
Hooper, I have to say, I do share the same feeling. Having lived in Japan for several years, and worked for Corporate Japan several more, I have a deep appreciation for the social education that makes the Japanese the they are, but I know that If I were born Japanese, I would have never had the opportunities I have had being American. The USA may have it's faults, but there is still no country on earth that offers its citizens the choices we have here. | ||
| Mnrider |
http://editorial.autos.msn.com/article.aspx?cp-doc umentid=435214 This is the reliability article. | ||
| Hangetsu |
It's a good article, but it doesn't address the nature of the repairs (many could be quite insignificant) and what's really important, the long term, high mileage reliability. Unless it's very pampered, you still won't see many American cars doing too well much past 100,000 to 150,000 miles. They may still be going, but they're usually in shambles. The average Toyota, Honda, or Nissan, unless abused, will still be solid as a rock well beyond 200K. And when it comes to fit, finish, ergonomics, and overall function in design - there's still no comparison. | ||
| Froggy |
Ok posting this early, I was gathering evidence to counter Ft_bstrd, but you stole my attention.
That is the biggest pile of bull I have ever seen posted on this site. I have first hand experience, my first car, a 90 Pontiac Bonneville, 230K on it when I got into a head on collision that wrecked it. It died with a torque converter issue, apparently I did too many burnouts for something that old. After that, my 90 Lumina sedan. Drove it, beat on it, kept on ticking fine till the day my dad sold it. I currently drive an 02 Monte Carlo. Bought it 4 years ago with 24k on it, now has 135k. Burn outs, dukes of hazard jumps, 70mph ebrakes, doughnuts and whatever else I can throw at it. She is still going great, problems to date have been road salt two years in a row has clogged a wheel sensor, clean it out and its good. Hasn't happened this year yet. Oh, and I needed front bearings at 120k. What a lemon, my Buell had only a dozen warranty items in 6 months. Do a google search for million cars: http://www.google.com/search?client=opera&rls=en&q =million+mile+car&sourceid=opera&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8 You got a Saab (GM), Volvo (Ford), Chevy pickup, Camaro, Lincon town car, a Mercedes, Ford F250, and a few others. Zero Toyota, Honda, Nissan, Mitus, Subaru.
Wow you have been out of the loop. The Chevy Malibu has a best in class interior, and makes the Camry look like a Pinto. | ||
| Mnrider |
My parents own an auto repair shop that I work at on weekends and I have been a tech at new car dealers for over 30 years and I see many American cars and trucks with over 200k miles and I see many Japanese cars that belong in the junk yard at 100k. Sure Japanese cars are good but they don't need to be held on a pedestal like gods. I have a friend who always bragged about how great his Honda was but when his trans went out on his Accord at 70k we did't talk about that any more | ||
| Froggy |
Let me guess, 99-02 Accord? Best part is, because of the mass failures Honda had to outsource the replacement trans, and they ended up having to get them from GM  | ||
| Mnrider |
Consumer Reports was developed in a basement in Hiroshima,those Japanese are smart. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
I am not lauding Japanese cars over American cars because they are Japanese. Historically, American cars have had lower overall quality. Period. Are the 2008 and 2009 models markedly better? Absolutely. Never said they weren't. You don't, as a manufacturer, get to shit in a box and sell it to the general public for 30 years and then get a pass with one year. You have to EARN quality distinctions that heretofore haven't been there. My parents last Chrysler minivan dropped two transmissions. The model generation they had before that one dropped three. The one before THAT one dropped two. (They now have a Toyota Sienna.) Their Lincoln Town car had a complete suspension system failure at 75,000 miles. They DID get 150,000 out of a Pontiac Parisienne. The Pontiac Bonneville that it replaced was the wonderful 350 gas/diesel conversion. We tend to hang onto cars for a while. None of us trade vehicles often. I had 165,000 on my first car, a VW beetle. My next car, an 88 Toyota 4-Runner had 189,000 miles. I sold it and got a 96 Honda Civic. I sold it with 165,000 miles. My next car was an 01 Toyota 4-runner. We sold it with 216,000 miles on it. I still see it running around town four years later. It's probably got over 300,000 now. I sold it and bought a VW Passat. I sold it with 135,000 miles on it. I replaced it with an Acura TL. It just rolled over 100,000 miles this weekend. We also own a Toyota Sequoia with 147,000 miles on it. I had problems with the VW. Otherwise, no issues with ANY of the other vehicles. Change the fluids and drive. I don't HATE American manufacturers. Just the opposite. I want them to do well. I want them to make cars I can trust. Until this year, they haven't. I am VERY seduced by the G6/Aura/Malibu platform. I think for the money, they are some of the best cars available from American manufacturers. I think this will bear out in CR as well (will kill their Japanese handlers no doubt). I think the G8 is friggin' fantastic. I love the new Outlook/Enclave SUV. I think the Impala still looks like ass. I hope it'll be the G8 platform when it's all said and done. Jingoistic rah, rah pro-domestic auto maker blather aside, you can't with a straight face claim that the Japanese manufacturers haven't been kicking our asses for the last 20 years. | ||
| Jammin_joules |
I was an engineering manager at Whirlpool in a former life and Consumer Reports would rate Whirlpool, Kenmore, Roper and KitchenAid clothes washers with Maytag and GE intermingled in the list. Whirlpool makes Kenmore, Roper and KitchenAid of the same components, the same design and they run down the same assembly lines, parts fabricated off the same tooling. Yet CR swore there were differences in performance and reliability. nuff said | ||
| Jammin_joules |
Previously owned or presently between my kids and our cars, 1974 Ford Gran Torino Elite (a tad newer than in new Clint Eastwood movie) had 187,000 miles when I sold it after college. Had a radiator wear out, carb rebuild, and rear axle seals fail, timing chain at 100,000, several exhaust systems 1978 Lincoln Town Coupe' had 175,000 when sold and one power lock quit at 100K, tranny had a $300 rebuild at 90K, front calipers froze up when it was stored one winter. 1984 F150 needed a fuel pump and carb rebuild around 89,000, I sold with 190,000 on it, friend drove it until Michigan cancer made it unsafe with 225,000, pulled the motor and put it in another F-150, still going last I heard 1989 Ford Aerostar - sold to a friend at 130,000, his use and that of his son while in college turned 250,000 but Michigan cancer (rust) got to it 1994 Ford Taurus 118,000 miles, no major repairs ignoring two accidents my daughter at CSU had and still drives it, one took out the air conditioning system 1997 Ford Taurus 132,000 miles, an exhaust header gasket failed two years ago, son going to CU still driving including a cross country trip last summer 1998 Ford Windstar 121,000 miles and had to put a battery in it last year, first one! and new rotors at 90,000 miles with its second set of front pads, still driving 2003 Taurus has 55,000 and had a sensor connector failure while under warranty, still driving Yup, damn crappy American design, American made American cars. (Message edited by jammin_joules on January 26, 2009) | ||
| Hangetsu |
Holy S&^%, what a tirade I started. I think we should drop this topic, shake and be friends; before violence ensues.  It seems auto loyalty is as sensitive a subject as politics and religion. Well, at least we all agree on one thing...BUELL! | ||
| Jammin_joules |
Glad we US tax payers can help... Japan's Nikkei average jumped 4.6% ...after relief over a possible lifeline for the struggling U.S. auto industry lifted ... Toyota and other exporters.. http://www.reuters.com/article/marketsNews/idUST16 227720081215 Mitch Albom, a Detroit sports writer, playwright, musician, philanthropist gives his version of the speech he'd make before congress... Protecting the home turf? Sen. Shelby. Yes. You. From Alabama. You've been awfully vocal. You called the Detroit Three's leaders "failures." You said loans to them would be "wasted money." You said they should go bankrupt and "let the market work." Why weren't you equally vocal when your state handed out hundreds of millions in tax breaks to Mercedes-Benz, Hyundai, Honda and others to open plants there? Why not "let the market work"? Or is it better for Alabama if the Detroit Three fold so that the foreign companies -- in your state -- can produce more? Way to think of the nation first, senator. http://www.freep.com/article/20081123/COL01/811230 371 Look. Nobody is saying the auto business is healthy. Its unions need to adjust more. Its models and dealerships need to shrink. Its top executives have to downsize their own importance. But this is a business that has been around for more than a century. And some of its problems are because of that, because people get used to certain wages, manufacturers get used to certain business models. It's easy to point to foreign carmakers with tax breaks, no union costs and a cleaner slate -- not to mention help from their home countries -- and say "be more like them." But if you let us die, you let our national spine collapse. America can't be a country of lawyers and financial analysts. We have to manufacture. We need that infrastructure. We need those jobs. We need that security. Have you forgotten who built equipment during the world wars? Besides, let's be honest. When it comes to blowing budgets, being grossly inefficient and wallowing in debt, who's better than Congress? ......................o~'o | ||
| Froggy |
Jammin, CR said the same thing about the Toyota Matrix and the Pontiac Vibe. Same car, different skin, yet somehow its quality is sub part to the toyotas. Beats me. Ft_bstrd, we consider 2004 to be the year of the new GM, as thats when stuff Rick Wagoneer and Bob Lutz put into motion starting to come to reality. Took a few years to phase everything out, but todays GM lineup is 1000x better in every department than 10 years ago.
Avoid the G6, Aura is a little better, but GM spent the coin on the Malibu. You will drool over the next generation of the epsilon platform cars 
Indeed it is, but I am pissed the pickup got canned.
Who dosen't
That was the plan, then gas hit $8 a gallon, new CAFE standards, bailouts and economy taking a dump killed everything RWD in GMs plans. G8 is dead after 2012 as it stands. Even the Corvette is in limbo.
Indeed they have. | ||
| Crackhead |
"3 year MSN quality survey repairs per 100 vehicles Lexus 120 Mercury 151 Caddy 155 Toyota 159 Acura 160 Buick 153 BMW 164 Lincoln 165 Honda 177 Jaguar 178" something is not right with that survey. The Ford and Mercury cars should have the EXACT same scores. The only difference is the badge on the hood and stearing wheel. Same thing is happening with Buick and Olds. Were is Olds on the ratings? I can see Lincoln owners being more picky then Ford/ Mercury owners, Thus explaining the lower rating of Lincolns. Same with Caddys. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Olds was dead long ago. They no longer exist as a marque. | ||
| Wesman |
GMC Jimmy 130K ..... I have replaced worn out parts .... Imagine that! .....Runs like the day I bought it. America has talked it's self into thinking our products are crap. They blame the unions, they blame the workers.....but they NEVER blame the managers, bean counters or the engineers .... cause Americans are mostly bean counters, engineers or managers. The days of workers leaving soda bottles inside doors went away in the 70's. To tell the truth 80% of all cars are built by robots. | ||
| Mnrider |
I still like my theory about CR and Hiroshima | ||
| Jammin_joules |
Vehicle quality rankings for 2008 Annual J.D. Power initial quality rankings by vehicle brand for defects and design issues in 2008 new vehicles: Nameplate IQS rank Porsche 87 Infiniti 98 Lexus 99 Mercedes-Benz 104 Toyota 104 Mercury 109 Honda 110 Ford 112 Jaguar 112 - Ford owned Audi 113 Cadillac 113 Chevrolet 113 Hyundai 114 Pontiac 114 Lincoln 115 Buick 118 Industry average 118 Acura 119 Kia 119 Nissan 124 Volvo 124 - Ford owned BMW 126 GMC 127 Mazda 127 Volkswagen 128 Hummer 132 Subaru 133 Scion 138 Dodge 141 Chrysler 142 Mitsubishi 149 Saab 149 Suzuki 152 Saturn 157 Land Rover 161 Mini 163 Source: J.D. Power and Associates annual Initial Quality Study, based on responses from 81,500 buyers and lessees of 2008 vehicles after 90 days of ownership. |
