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Ironhead1977
| | Posted on Sunday, January 04, 2009 - 06:11 pm: | 
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(Give me a break. Unions don't operate their own companies. They provide labor.)
Try going into New York State with dump trucks to help clear debris from a winter storm and not leave an envelope on the seat so the union inspector can find it. You will find out real quick how much a business the union is and how much out of business the trucks are. |
Court
| | Posted on Sunday, January 04, 2009 - 07:01 pm: |
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>>>>The reason you cant change your own light bulb has nothing to do with unions but everything to do with safety and liability.
Must be nice to be young and so protected.
Funny story . . . when I moved to NYC I did NOT know the way of the world. When Harley-Davidson contacted me with a "special assignment" I cheerfully told them "no problem", rented a 22 Ryder van put 7 Harleys in it, drove to 34th and Broadway, parked in front of Macy's and spent the next 4 hours rolling bikes down the ramp, through the main lobby and through a labyrnth of tiny halls into the store's picture windows.
A couple weeks later I delivered an antique Harley to Ralph Lauren's office as "atmosphere" for a meeting . . this entailed standing the bike up on the back wheel to get it up the tiny freight elevator.
I was young and oh so unbright. In retrospect, having now learned about Teamsters and Freight Elevators, I was very lucky.
It's a dandy life and we've all been players in a big Ponzo scheme in a way. |
Ft_bstrd
| | Posted on Sunday, January 04, 2009 - 07:04 pm: |
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Talk about fairy tales, don't believe everything you read in the obviously bias press, other wise you might start believing Buell makes inferior motorcycles ...
Yeah, we wouldn't want you to have to DEFEND any of your statements above.  |
Dalton_gang
| | Posted on Sunday, January 04, 2009 - 07:14 pm: |
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"These practices aren't about protecting workers. These practices are about protecting the union and union control."
This is so true on so many levels!
"Give me a break. Unions dont operate their own companies. They provide labor."
I guess you have never been to St. Louis!??
"It is not owned or "run" by unions. The reason you cant change your own light bulb has nothing to do with unions but everything to do with safety and liability"
I can`t believe that I just read that. You should see what happens when I walk into a hospital, convention center, school, etc with a 6' ladder and a tool bag. Todays unions are so unbelievable. It is so easy to outperform them, charge the customer less $$ and still earn more for me and pay my employees more. The funny thing is that they know it and will do anything and everything they can to stick a knife in your back.
strike
picket
boycott
slander
intimidate
legislate
etc
etc
It`s really too bad that so many companies (customers) put up with their crap. |
Spatten1
| | Posted on Sunday, January 04, 2009 - 09:46 pm: |
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However, McCormick Place is owned and maintained by The Metropolitan Pier and Exposition Authority, a municipal corporation created by the Illinois General Assembly. It is not owned or "run" by unions. The reason you cant change your own light bulb has nothing to do with unions but everything to do with safety and liability.
Dude, you are living on some other plane of existence. I remember when the National Marine Manufacturers Association pulled the largest national boat show from Chicago and moved it to Miami. It was for one reason: The unions were too much of a pain in the ass to deal with in Chicago. McCormik Place has become a joke because exhibitors just don't want the aggrivation the union guys put them through during set-up and take-down. Vegas has capitalized on it more than anyone. |
Spatten1
| | Posted on Sunday, January 04, 2009 - 09:49 pm: |
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You can sit in Chicago, Detroit, or New York and talk about how great the unions are, but you ought to consider one thing:
Why has manufacturing declined in the Rust Belt while it has flourished in the Southeast and Southwest? Bad luck? |
Just_ziptab
| | Posted on Sunday, January 04, 2009 - 10:24 pm: |
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I remember 30 years ago when a local nearby city telephone company union went so low as to bomb specific homes and buildings..and yet were taking $9.00 an hour to my $1.90 an hour. How do you compete with buying power when they are taking that kind of money home and the sales people know that and they won't give me a deal when a union goon(as my dad called them)snaps it up with out question. Today, my buying power is up with less union workers in this area......not sure if that is the reason or not. |
Slaughter
| | Posted on Sunday, January 04, 2009 - 10:42 pm: |
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Quite prophetic when you realize this was penned over a decade ago:
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Jlnance
| | Posted on Monday, January 05, 2009 - 08:06 am: |
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TARIFFS! We need tariffs in order for OUR Companies to regain market share.
Ultimately, OUR companies need to make products good enough to compete in the global market place. It is not enough simply that Americans buy American products. The world needs to buy American products.
Tariffs remove the incentive for companies to make products good enough to sell overseas. They will just cater to the US market, which, with the tariff, has no choice but to buy their goods.
The also wreck the business model of successful companies. Take Buell for example. They buy parts from all over the world, assemble them into motorcycles, and sell those bikes back to the world. I think we forget that something like 50% of their sales are in Europe. That reduces our trade deficit and helps the US economy as a whole. If you tariffed the parts they imported, then they aren't going to be able to export those bikes. |
Steve_mackay
| | Posted on Monday, January 05, 2009 - 08:45 am: |
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One thing to add to this discussion, American Manufacturing is on the rise, not decline.
M2nc, I don't know where you are getting your info, but American Manufacturing is at a 30 year low.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&si d=ar33MwWqPjdQ&refer=home |
Black9
| | Posted on Monday, January 05, 2009 - 09:49 am: |
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Here's your supply and demand, company needs cheap part, not great part, cheap part so his stock holder is happy, hey we can get REAL cheap parts from China, cause they got ten year olds making a couple bucks a week making cheap parts , but we don't care bout that, just as long as the parts are cheap
...sounds about like the US labor enviroment in the early nineteen hundreds before labor unions were formed...Oh and the ONLY reason Foreign auto makers build here is to avoid paying import taxes, and the wages they pay are small potatoes compared to what they send home. Charge the customer less, make more for you, and pay your workers more, WOW who pencil whips your books! |
Ft_bstrd
| | Posted on Monday, January 05, 2009 - 09:49 am: |
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Steve,
You are describing the results of the current economy's impact on manufacturing rather than an overall outlook on manufacturing.
http://www.newyorkfed.org/research/current_issues/ ci12-2.pdf
Were we not in a temporary economic downturn, the manufacturing sector would be continuing on it's upward trend line. |
Swordsman
| | Posted on Monday, January 05, 2009 - 11:03 am: |
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"I rented a Pontiac crossover (station wagon) last week in Arizona."
Spatten, funny thing: the only station wagon/crossover available from Pontiac (if I'm not mistaken) is the Vibe. The Vibe, as luck would have it, is actually a Toyota Matrix, with a GM-designed body. Interiors and drive train are identical. So the whole thing you said about Toyota is a bit ironic. 
I had an '03 Vibe (sold it for down payment on the Mustang). They're pretty cool little cars, but the automatic tranny is annoyingly unpredictable in its shift patterns.
This has been a really interesting thread thus far! 
~SM |
Steve_mackay
| | Posted on Monday, January 05, 2009 - 11:19 am: |
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Swordsman, they also have the "Torrent"
http://www.pontiac.com/torrent/index.jsp |
Swordsman
| | Posted on Monday, January 05, 2009 - 12:53 pm: |
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Ah, forgot about that one. Though I don't think it looks much like a station wagon.
~SM |
Edgydrifter
| | Posted on Monday, January 05, 2009 - 01:32 pm: |
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Adding to the awesomeness of the whole situation, the V6 in the Torrent is made in China by Shanghai General Motors, a joint venture between GM and Shanghai Automotive Industry. So there you go--an "American" car built on a Japanese-designed platform with a Chinese-made motor. It's not the only one, either. |
Ferris_von_bueller
| | Posted on Monday, January 05, 2009 - 04:57 pm: |
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Todays unions are so unbelievable. It is so easy to outperform them, charge the customer less $$ and still earn more for me and pay my employees more. The funny thing is that they know it and will do anything and everything they can to stick a knife in your back.
I dont know where you live but in the D.C./Balto area there are no non-union electricians making more money on a per hour basis than a corresponding union electrician. The only people making more money are the owners of the non-union electrical shop. Furthermore, what non-union contractors do is try to estimate their bids just slightly under the union shop bid. A non-union shop could completely eliminate union shops just by continually underbidding but they dont do that, do they? - of course not . The customer ends up saving very little, if anything at all. A contractor really makes out when they hire illegal aliens. I personally know a english speaking hispanic fellow who provides labor for $20/hour and pays his illegals $10/hour.
Believe me, I'm not some union sycophant. They create a lot of their problems but at the same time they represent only about 13% of the workforce and only 7% in the electrical industry and most of that is in the utility sector ( think Court). If unions disappeared tomorrow our problems would still be here. |
Ft_bstrd
| | Posted on Monday, January 05, 2009 - 05:10 pm: |
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If unions disappeared tomorrow our problems would still be here.
Agreed.
If 100% of the workforce were union, our problems would still be here as well.
They are neither the plague or the salvation of workers.
Conversely, neither is the compensation of CEOs. |
Dynasport
| | Posted on Monday, January 05, 2009 - 05:22 pm: |
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One thing I don't think has been mentioned in this thread is the governmental rules and regulations American companies must meet that not all foreign companies are faced with. I am not sure about Japan, they may have strict governmental regulations, but I know countries such as China do not. Companies have been allowed to pollute in China without much if any restrictions. The result is air that is toxic and water that is poison. I think China is just now beginning to see the need for some oversight, but up to now they have been manufacturing away without regard to environmental concerns. I also doubt that have anything that compares to OSHA or a Workman's Compensation program. These things certainly add to the cost a company has when operating in the U.S.
I know businesses don't like these government regulations, but I am a bit partial to air I can breathe and water I can drink without getting sick. I also am in favor of safe work environments. So, while I am not a big fan of government regulations myself, I do understand there is a need for them and I also know that they add cost to the company. They put U.S. firms at a cost disadvantage when competing with companies in countries that don't have to deal with such regulations. Just something else to remember. |
Ducxl
| | Posted on Monday, January 05, 2009 - 05:35 pm: |
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There 'ya go!! We can sell China "Carbon Credits"!!
How else can we compete? |
Dalton_gang
| | Posted on Monday, January 05, 2009 - 07:49 pm: |
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I have never hired an illegal and the last time I paid someone less than $12/hr was for temporary unskilled labor to a high school kid years ago so you must have me confused with someone else.
Your more than a little off with your other comments too. Usually I bid according to what I think the market will bear. Not by under bidding a union competitor. One example is that I can usually make well over $100/hr doing 200 amp service changes and still be the lowest bid by several hundred bucks.(my customers love it) Now if I was union I would have to raise my bid because I would have to pay someone 8hrs to do a 6hr job and send 2 men out for a one man job. Don't start thinking I'm getting rich off doing these because out of the money earned I have to pay myself or an employee a descent wage, pay insurance, rent, vehicle maintenance, etc. etc.
Why don`t you think that the owners deserve to make more money anyway. Just think about it. It`s the owners that are usually fronting the capitol to operate the business, which pays for all the liabilities, advertising, overhead, vehicles, tools, taxes (the list really goes on forever).
As an owner of a small business I can tell you that the level of stress is super high, the amount of crap you have to put up with is very deep, and the amount of hours you have to work to stay in business is longer than most can imagine.
So yeah, I think owners should make more but I don't agree with gouging customers or screwing employees at all. I can honestly tell you that we try extremely hard to be fair with everyone we do business with regardless if they are on the paying end or paid end.
We have always paid wages and benefits based on merit. What that means is based on a persons knowledge, level of skill, attitude, ability, attendance, productivity, etc. etc. That is what they are actually worth. Not what some book or some union says they are worth. Kinda like when you go to school you should only get an "A" if you earned it. There are just way too many variables and it's just not fair to pay an under achiever the same as someone who is outstanding. You can argue that the outstanding employee should just be paid more than the under achiever but to what end? Geesh, look at what some of the wage / benefit packages are up to now. (It's getting crazy) So considering what I just said you can surely understand why some electricians make more than others.
Sometimes I start thinking about giving it all up and take it easy by going to work for some big union controlled contractor, slapping a "piss on scabs" sticker on the back of my truck and changing my name to "7 of 9"................Then I wake up.
What this country needs is more small business so that more people can share the responsibility and the rewards. I think that it`s safe to say that the "big business-big union" thing isn`t working very well. |
Aesquire
| | Posted on Monday, January 05, 2009 - 08:48 pm: |
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I'm in a union. I pay my dues. I'm sure that if I did not join, they would protect me from management just like the dues paying members.....right? 
So I'm cynical.
I've been a tool maker. ( QC, precision machinist, tool & die, SPC production, etc. )
I've worked in both union & non union shops. The union shops uniformly had a hostile management/worker relationship. How much of that is the nature of a union shop & how much is a reflection of bad management, I don't know.
The non union shops have a range of bad attitude. Employees vote with their feet if the boss is real bad. When loyalty goes both ways, it's a good shop.
My union also supports only 1 political party. ( I won't say, but I bet you can guess ) I keep getting up at union meetings and ask why we don't bribe both sides. ADM, the oil companies & every company/group that gets their way bribe both sides. Why don't we? I don't think we get our money's worth...and they bribe them a lot. Even when the other party is in power, they just bribe one side.
The only thing I can think of is that it's not practical bribery to keep the union jobs, but it might just be ideological? I better go back to the books & study the progressive movement & unionization. It can't be ideological.
Capitalism is the uneven distribution of wealth.
Socialism is the equal distribution of poverty. ( unless you are a Party member )
If GM had less costs they would be more competitive. No doubt. Since they spent the last few years making such a variety of SUV's that I lost track, it's obvious that more competitive would still be losing money. The bean counters took over. The car guys hid at the Corvette division & prayed the bean counters wouldn't catch them & downsize.
You have to have bean counters, or you go out of business. Pity but true. If you don't have inspired guys who are into the PRODUCT you fail.
Buell has guys what are INTO the product. They got bean counters too. They will win. |
Aesquire
| | Posted on Monday, January 05, 2009 - 09:09 pm: |
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Oh, just to be brutal....
It is completely unacceptable for somebody who destroyed his body & wasted his whole life working for a company to get screwed out of his retirement. The deal was the deal. It's not like you can go get a better job after 30 years on the line. The back is shot, the knees are gone & the hands can barely hold a fork, much less an impact driver. You paid for retirement & medical for decades. It's not entitlement mentality, you paid for it.
Screwing ex employee's because the bean counters tell you it will get you a bigger bonus is reason for anti social violence. You want to break up & sell GM, because management has made terrible decisions? Then the workers who paid for the big corp. headquarters & business jets should get the money. The banks can go fish.
I'm, to my complete surprise, in favor of loans for the auto companies. Is it fair for Toyota? No. But it's not fair to let the retiree's get screwed either.
I've also decided that the TARP fund was a horrible scam, & the banks deserve to get the Darwin award for excess greed & stupidity.
I decided that when I found out they picked the 700 billion number because they knew they wanted a really big number, they knew they would have to go back for more, they didn't know how much they needed, they didn't want too even a number since it would look bad & $700,000,000,000 looked like they knew what they were doing. A-holes. |
Ferris_von_bueller
| | Posted on Monday, January 05, 2009 - 09:27 pm: |
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Is it fair for Toyota? No
They are looking to get money out of the Japanese government. Oh and they dont pay for medical because Japan has socialized medicine. |
Ft_bstrd
| | Posted on Monday, January 05, 2009 - 09:34 pm: |
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I've found that those most hostile toward "owners" tend to be the ones who have spent their entire lives punching someone else's time clock.
I run my own business. My wife runs her own business. There is no such thing as overtime. You get to stay until the job is done. When you discover that page 18 of your 57 page presentation is wrong on all 54 of your presentation packages the night before your "big presentation", guess who gets to stay up late and correct the problem? When you absolutely have to get in your clothing design to the manufacturer in order to make the deadline for production or your entire season is for nothing, guess who gets to pull an all nighter to get it done?
Guess who also gets to mortgage their house in order to start the business? Guess who gets to go into debt up to their eyeballs to keep the doors open on their business? When the business craters, guess who gets to file bankruptcy and live in a rented apartment and drive a busted ass car for years until their credit clears up?
The guy who punches the clock? Well he bitches about the "owner" driving the really nice car (after driving the same busted ass car for WAY longer that it should have been driven) and lives in a really nice house (after losing his first house in the bankruptcy) and makes a lot of money (after bouncing checks and dodging creditor calls while trying to keep the business afloat).
During the bankruptcy, the employee lost a job.
During the bankruptcy, the owner lost everything.
If you don't like what management does and you feel you can do it better, strike out on your own and build a business for yourself. Stop punching someone else's clock. Stop being an "employee".
If you are an "ordinary" machinist, become an extraordinary machinist in a specialty area where there is little competition and your skills are sought after. If you are an "ordinary" line worker, take classes, go back to school, add certifications. Figure out where there are holes in the market, where there are shortfalls, where there are in efficiencies.
In the words of that business genius, Big Weld, "See a need. Fill a need."
I met a guy a few months ago. For some reason he liked me and shared an idea with me. That idea has turned into an effort to get a new business up and running. If we can, there is the potential to revolutionize the industry of this business, to bring efficiencies, quality, and consistency to a market that is currently completely in disarray. We are working to get investors to believe in and share our vision (and to give us start up capital). It will be a day and night effort to make the business work. In the end (and if we can make it happen), I expect to be well paid for my efforts.
When our country stopped being a nation of entrepreneurs and started being a nation of "employees", we began looking for someone else to provide the bread for our table and for someone else to protect us.
Slavery comes in such forms. |
Slaughter
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 06, 2009 - 12:31 am: |
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From almost 14 years ago:
 |
Ft_bstrd
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 06, 2009 - 12:42 am: |
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Nice. |
Court
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 06, 2009 - 04:52 pm: |
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>>>>A non-union shop could completely eliminate union shops just by continually underbidding but they don't do that, do they?
They could in theory but that's why the I.B.E.W adopted the "Job Targeting" program.
Blaming the unions, and I have my own opinions on their strengths and weaknesses, is like blaming the thermometer for the temperature. |
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