| Author | Message | ||
     Swordsman |
"I have no more loyalty left for domestically produced automobiles from GM, Ford, or Chrysler." Agreed. I bought my '08 Mustang on the premise that, even if I had to take it to the shop more often, I wanted to support American manufacturing. Lo and behold, I DID have to take it to the shop... a LOT, already. I've changed my mind. I will no longer buy crappy American products out of sheer patriotism. If the companies can't be competitive, they should change, or they should die. Simple as that. And Ferris, that 12% union statistic looks like it was taking every company in the US into account. For the transportation/utility sector, the number was closer to 22%. On average, union workers made 25% more than non-union (all according to that link). ~SM | ||
| Reepicheep |
My 95 Saturn SC2 was a better and more reliable car then either of the two Honda's I owned before it. Cheaper to buy and cheaper to maintain as well. FWIW. I'm with Blake now, the last American car I bought was made in Sweeden. It goes well with my Mauser  | ||
| Bhillberg |
The sad fact of the matter is that if you buy a "domestic" auto anymore out of patriotism you "may" be fooling yourself anyways. Think about it, the Ford Fusion is made in mexico! Out of the 4 models that run in Nascar, the Toyota Camry is the ONLY one made here!! The way I look at it is if you buy an supposed domestic car the only American that may be getting your money is some high level executive. On the other hand if you bought a Camry or some other "foreign" car that is made here your money will also find it's way into the middle class, blue collar person who built it's pockets. Sure some foreign executive get's rich too but the rich get richer anyways. I would rather make sure the working American man gets paid. | ||
| Swordsman |
Dude, you can't KILL those old Saturns. I still miss my '95 SL-1. Puny engine, but NEVER got less than 38 mpg, no matter how I ragged on it. Those things were somethin' else. Just one more thing GM did to piss me off... basically killed Saturn technology and now uses their name on imported Opels. If I wanted a frikkin' import, I'd buy a Toyota.  ~SM (Message edited by Swordsman on January 02, 2009) | ||
| Spatten1 |
Agreed. I bought my '08 Mustang on the premise that, even if I had to take it to the shop more often, I wanted to support American manufacturing. Lo and behold, I DID have to take it to the shop... a LOT, already. That Mustang almost made me go back to American too. Very seductive automobile, great looking and performance out the wazoo. I was a huge GM fan and drove a GTO in high school. When I worked as a mechanic in the late 80's and early 90's I went totally Japanese on both cars and motorcycles. For the cars/trucks, I wanted reliability. For the motorcycles I wanted performance. At the time neither was available from US manufacturers. I rented a Pontiac crossover (station wagon) last week in Arizona. I really wanted to like it, but the dash looked like a reject from the Battlestar Gallactic set, and the power came on in a totally non-linear fashion. As it revved in first gear it kind of surged forward. The engine braking was very inconsisent depending on speed and gear. I just don't get how they don't notice this stuff in Detroit. Toyota would not let a new model out the door that runs so "goofy". | ||
| Ducxl |
Yes and there have been issues with this, the suppliers are drying up and unable to make parts anymore, auto makers are suing suppliers for breaching contract and other things. TRue story: At a machine shop i used to work at.They were entertaining a potentially HUGE contract from Continental/Teves. They had a plan but not the necessary screw machining equipment.They purchased SEVERAL million dollars in tooling up a line.They were tooled and ready to deliver those ABS widgets.The purchased equipment was to be amortized through the Purchase of the widgets. AT THE LAST POSSIBLE MOMENT Continental/Teves came back and told my old employer that Poland had just come in with a cheaper quote. They told my old employer to sell at Poland's price or lose all of their biz. They were caught between the proverbial "rock and a hard place". THIS is how business is conducted nowadays. Cut-throat,and the bottom line without regard to livelyhoods. You can say the same old things but,to me,Capitalism has failed due to the greed it fosters Being forced to continuously cut cost where none can be cut anymore invites bankruptcy. Bankruptcy of morals and your fellow countryman. We've lost the steel industry,the textile industry,and soon we'll lose the automotive industry.The Geely...coming to a showroom near YOU. | ||
| Spatten1 |
I grew up in NC where the textile industry was a big part of the economy, and died. Difference: Textiles are made by cheap labor outside of the US. Good autos are made by Japanese companies in ex-textile states with US labor. If they can do it here, we should be able to also. It's a bit shameful. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
You have to ask the question as to why FOREIGN companies can produce THEIR products that are competitive and attractive in the United Stated using US LABOR and domestic companies can not. What is the difference? Management Unions Why are Toyota, Honda, and Nissan not asking for bailout money? Why should we give money to companies who have shown not to have the abilities or common sense to spend it wisely? Why should we take money out of the hands of individuals who would spend that money on the most competitive and attractive products available? GM, Ford, and Chrysler NEED to die in order to free up that labor pool to be utilized more efficiently in different industries. Nissan employees have rejected organization with the UAW FOUR TIMES. Most of these employees are transplants from UAW firms. There has to be a reason. Maybe they know something that others should. | ||
| Ferris_von_bueller |
And Ferris, that 12% union statistic looks like it was taking every company in the US into account. Of course. That statistic is not industry specific. What to know where the largest percentage of union representation is? GOVERNMENT In any case, you guys need to move beyond blaming unions for all of the U.S. woes. The fact is, it doesnt matter, whether or not GM, etc are unionized if they aren't selling vehicles. Furthermore, for all you libertarians out there, you're black and white no regulation free-for-all thinking isn't realistic. It's great if you're at the top of the pyramid but not so-much for those further down the food chain. | ||
| Ducxl |
Why are Toyota, Honda, and Nissan not asking for bailout money?  That was funny! As if we'd EVER offer it to them. 40 years ago they(the jap crap cars) were the crap cars nobody wanted.Our government invited them to keep on selling their cheap crap cars.We,as uber Capitalists began to take notice of their cheap tinney crap cars that simply rusted away before our eyes.THEY ammassed some wealth and reinvested wholeheartedly back into their companies. We did not...We invited them outsiders to overtake our entire automobile industry. Where was the bailout for the textile industry? TARIFFS! We need tariffs in order for OUR Companies to regain market share. If we can't ship off a million Cobalts to China.We need tarriffs | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Our government invited them to keep on selling their cheap crap cars Really? What "invitation" was that? Toyota, Honda, and Nissan DON'T NEED MONEY, and they aren't facing bankruptcy. That's the point. Our auto industry deserves to fail by it's own hands. Tariffs are a fools errand and result in a zero sum game or worse. You aren't REALLY prescribing tariffs, right? If we raise tariffs on Japanese goods, what do you think Japan will do? What will China do? Why don't we reduce corporate tax rates to provide wider profit margins allowing costs to come down or quality to go up or does that not play into the "punish the rich class warfare" outlook?} | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
In any case, you guys need to move beyond blaming unions for all of the U.S. woes. The fact is, it doesnt matter, whether or not GM, etc are unionized if they aren't selling vehicles. Unions DON'T bear all the blame. The management of US Auto manufacturers bear much of the blame as well. The issue is the UAW's apparent unwillingness to take cuts in order to save the US companies.} | ||
| Ducxl |
Why don't we reduce corporate tax rates to provide wider profit margins And THAT is the problem.An ever insatiable appetite for MORE margin. I'm absolutely in favor of tarrifs.We've given up ALL manufacturing. PLEASE!!! SOMEONE tell me how China love to purchase SOMETHING enmass that WE manufacture.PLEASE!!!!! Save me! Tell me of SOMETHING we sell to China/Japan! Because they can't enact tariffs against nothing we sell them | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
The Chinese buy the hell out of Buick: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12801549/ Sales of Ford rose 46% in China in 2008: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/01/16/business /main1210146.shtml Chevy sold 519,000+ cars in 2000: http://news.infibeam.com/blog/news/2008/05/16/chev rolet_sales_surpass_500_000_units_in_china.html Cadillac sales increased 149% in China in 2007: http://www.gasgoo.com/auto-news/5959/Cadillac-sale s-surge-149-in-Chinese-market.html Hell, even Chrysler sales have increased in China: http://www.leftlanenews.com/chrysler-sales-rise-in -russia-china.html Tariffs are short sighted and have been shown historically not to work and to do more harm than good. "We can't be competitive here, so let's make our opponent run with a 25lb weight." In case it's unclear, OUR ENTIRE ECONOMY IS DRIVEN BY PROFIT MARGIN. It's why people get out of bed in the morning. It's why you would walk across the street for an additional $2/hour. It's what drives someone to back to college to finish a degree to make more money. There is no such thing as "too much profit margin". That is a socialist concept. | ||
| Blake |
What do we sell in China and Japan? Jumbo jets, satellite communications equipment, and computer software for a start. I'm sure the list goes on, but I don't care to google up all the answers. "We've given up ALL manufacturing." There's not a shred of accuracy in that statement. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
What happened to the basketweaving industry? The windmill industry? The wagon and buggy industry? When the products aren't needed or the technology is so basic that undeveloped and underdeveloped workers can do it for less, those industries in highly industrialized and developed countries cease to exist. | ||
| Steve_mackay |
"There's not a shred of accuracy in that statement" A Shred, yes... The Tool & Die industry in the Midwest has been reduced to 40% of what it was 15 years ago. And we are doing jobs for LESS than we were 15 years ago, while everything has risen in price. Steel, labor tooling, etc... We've just gotten a bit more creative on how to shave costs, and increase productivity. | ||
| Ducxl |
 We've just gotten a bit more creative on how to shave costs, and increase productivity. THe beauty of CNC automated equipment means one operator can run 3 instead of the previous 2 machines.Heck,my brother is now coached to run 4 machines. But he isn't compensated for running more equipment.He can't seem to quantify it. thanks,Jeremy,it's always enlightening | ||
| Steve_mackay |
I've run 5 machines in the past myself. All with 5 different controls(Sharnoa, Tosnuk, Fidia, Fanuc 6M, and Fanuc 11M). Running, and programming are two different animals however. It's nearly impossible to run more than 2 and program them for 1 and two piece work that is typical for the mold making industry. | ||
| Ducxl |
We're screw machinists running(and programming) Index and Tornos multies. I'm responsible for 2 Tornos multies at the moment | ||
| Steve_mackay |
Production jobs, I can easily see being able to run 4-5 machines, if the runtime is long enough, or barfeeders(for lathe work) are utilized. For one and two piece parts, it's impossible, unless the run times are long, which is often the case. But timing is critical. I often setup a machine for a long weekend run, load up 20 tools in the tool changer, and let it run 24+ hours straight. See our toolmakers program most of the jobs themselves, except for the really picky 3D jobs, I do them. My main goal is design. But I do everything there from quoting jobs, to doing IT work, design, running & programming machines, to meeting with prospective customers. I often take jobs from concept to complete molds all by myself. This sort of full service shop is what keeps us in business. | ||
| Blake |
"...given up..." I stand by my statement, that there's not a shred of accuracy in the statement that we've "given up ALL manufacturing." | ||
| Ducxl |
Jumbo jets, satellite communications equipment, and computer software for a start. Those examples PALE in comparison to what we import. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Would seem to me that complex machines have done more to reduce the demand for machinists. One guy doing the work that used to be done by four seems like an increase in productivity at the cost of numbers employed. | ||
| Ducxl |
Say...Wasn't there some story about how Boeing was to open a manufacturing plant in China? Yeah,something like at the last moment they sent Boeing packing with a "thanks,but no-thanks" kind of send off? Investment in China can be shaky if they decide to cut you off.Communism and all.Can't seem to get rid of that pesky Communism | ||
| Bhillberg |
Those examples PALE in comparison to what we import Yes and no, it takes a lot of honda's to equal the price of a 747 | ||
| Just_ziptab |
Didn't Harley-Davidson get a tariff against the competition for a few years,got back on their feet and ended the tariff early? | ||
| Ducxl |
Say,Harley,that is a good comparison.We've got a flood of imported automobiles on our shores. The big 3 are hurting to the point of collapse. A tariff along the lines of the one that saved Harley-Davidson from the FLOOD of imports THEY experienced might work. Heck...now we have Daihatsu,Daewoo,and soon,Geely Look...everyone,i'm NOT trying to incite. I just CANNOT find goods made by my fellow Countryman.I have a problem with that. | ||
| Ferris_von_bueller |
Those examples PALE in comparison to what we import Yes and no, it takes a lot of honda's to equal the price of a 747 Here is a link that will explain the 2007 trade deficit breaking it down into various sectors http://useconomy.about.com/od/tradepolicy/p/Trade_ Deficit.htm "The U.S. Could Be Losing Its Competitiveness: A third concern about the U.S. trade deficit is the statement it makes about the competitiveness of the U.S. economy itself. By purchasing goods overseas for a long enough period of time, U.S. companies no longer have the expertise or even the factories to make those products. Try finding a pair of shoes made in the U.S. As the U.S. loses competitiveness, it has even lower quality jobs and the standard of living declines."...well, DUH !!!!! (Message edited by Ferris_von_bueller on January 02, 2009) | ||
| Just_ziptab |
"Say,Harley,that is a good comparison.We've got a flood of imported automobiles on our shores." . . . . .Yeah Greg, but will the big 3 go "lean to the extreme" to save their companies like H-D did? And yes, where do you go to buy the good stuff made in USA? Oh, it's out there and you have to look for it in specialty catalogs, but we are spoiled with cheap import prices on everything. The good stuff is at house hold retirement auctions....good old American made "everything" and that stuff always command high prices.........so people ARE willing to pay for quality. I know I am........or go with out a lot of times. The Condor rifle I bought is made in Texas...cost was high, quality was second to none! |
