| Author | Message | ||
     Ft_bstrd |
The "Harley Tariff" was bad policy: http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa032.html It hurt American Jobs, created economic reprisals from Japan, it stifled American ingenuity, and it didn't really help Harley Davidson. Tariffs NEVER work. Period. | ||
| 46champ |
You've got to be kidding your quoting a Cato paper from January 1984 before the results of the tariff were known. Without the tariff their probably would be no Harley. | ||
| Just_ziptab |
Watching the movie "Tucker" kinda gives a new feeling about the big three......but it's only a movie. | ||
| Reindog |
For you Santayana fans, your intentions are good but you will harbor a full tilt Depression in your beliefs. It has happened before with failed experiments in protectionism. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smoot-Hawley_Tariff_A ct The world has changed. Get used to it. Or not. | ||
| Chellem |
I don't think I know enough about this to have an opinion on tariffs. At least not an informed one. But companies, big and small, all over the country, are tightening up or disappearing. In the end, consumers (as always) will suffer for it, either with fewer choices of purchase, or with poorer quality items to purchase. Of course, consumers are not completely without blame here either. Let's blame CEO's - they are greedy bastards. Probably not all of them, but no owner should ask their employees to do anything that they aren't doing themselves. And like it or not, unions are partly to blame for this. Right or wrong, unions seem to contribute to the feeling of entitlement that union employees enjoy. We can get anything we want - we're union! That's the kind of rhetoric they use when they try to recruit people. While they were begun with the best of intentions (I assume) the union leaders have become what they purport to hate the most - greedy bastards. Sorry. That's the facts. But let's not forget consumers themselves. Speak of a feeling of entitlement. Consumers believe that no rules really apply - after all the customer is always right. So companies, in the name of customer service, give in to completely unreasonable requests, and customers believe that's the way it should be. "I know I bought it 3 years ago, but I need to return it. I'll take cash." At the same time, the average consumer is, well, consumed with the bottom line price. The cheapest thing tends to win out - and that is NOT an American made product, generally. And if a business cannot operate AND retain some sort of profit margin, it will close, voluntarily or otherwise. How many hours do YOU work for free? Owners who own unprofitable businesses work for free. In fact, in a really crappy environment, they actually have to pay out for having worked hard all year. How would the average Joe like that deal? Anyone ever see the movie Gung Ho? Funny stuff. Also kinda pissed me off. But that's just me. It had a happy ending. ->ChelleM | ||
| M2nc |
Toyota allows anyone to tour their facilities and study their business plan. It has been studied and around 1990 companies in the United States started to take notice. The Toyota business plan is better known as Lean manufacturing. Yes, I know it was developed by an American but American companies ignored him so lets move on. The funny thing is the answer to the survival of the American auto industry is right out there for everyone to see. The problem is that US businesses do not get it. It's more than just cutting the waste out of any manufacturing or service related process, its about continuous improvement. American managers get caught up in the reduction of waste part and pay lip service to the latter. If any company is going to survive in any industry, they must be competitive and timely with product, price and quality. To stay the same is to fall behind. Toyota strives to reach the 'Ultimate State of Lean'. This is not a destination, but a continuous journey. It is a Utopian state that would create a product when the customer wanted, where the customer wanted it, and at the price the customer wanted it, one piece at a time with no transportation necessary. You can never get there but you can always strive to get closer. This is the big secret. Sounds simple right? Now let me give you a real American interpretation of that simple principle. I sat through a presentation by a VP of one of America's largest battery manufacturers. He went on for thirty minutes showing us their past value stream map and their present value stream map. He stated how much waste they had eliminated from the process and how they reduced their lead times. Then he add how their improvement reduced the need for 50% of their engineers saving their company 'X' amount a year. Do you see the problem? It's right there. I asked this VP this simple question after his presentation. "Is your manufacturing process now as good as it can ever be?" He looked at me puzzled so I stated, "You just let go half of the guys that helped you make that great improvement to your manufacturing process, so now you are less able to improve in the future. Does this mean you feel you are as good as you can possible be?" As FB pointed out, it's all about profit margin. The problem with American managers is to them the only profit margin that matters is the one at the end of the quarter. The difference between Japanese, German and American managers, is that the first two have long term plans. Most American companies do not have a competitive long term plan. Let's take a close look at employees of GM and Toyota. Here are the two largest automakers in the world and their staffing tells the tale of why one is competitive and the other is not. Toyota has several layers less of management than GM. Toyota also has about two-thirds the labor force that actually produces the product than GM. Toyota has twice the number of engineers either in product development or industrial development than GM. That's it. I just told everyone the answer. It is just that simple. If GM wants to survive they need to work on improving product and process, not just for tomorrow, but the next day, and the next day, and the next day for eternity if they want to last that long. You see back in the 1960s Toyotas were crappy little cars that would rust away in three years. American cars were not much better but would last longer so the buying public paid more for American cars. Since then all three remaining American automakers have made huge improvements to both product quality and their manufacturing processes, but none matched Toyota over the same period of time. By the early 1980s Toyota built cars of a higher quality. Today Toyota not only builds higher quality cars, they are also more fuel efficient, cost less to manufacture, and on top of that the buying public will pay more for their product because of perceived quality of their product and better resale value. So now look at your profit margin. Forty years ago Toyota was giving up some of its profit margin for continuous and systematic improvements and it's now paying off. They are investing at levels now that GM, Ford or Chrysler can not match in future technology. They have the first profitable hybrid that they can not make enough of. That is a competitive long term business plan. As for the labor force and unions, they can share the blame as well. Unions resist change. They protect under-achievers and inflate wages and benefits to an uncompetitive level. They are not interested in long term survival. They are interested in Friday's pay check and then blame management for any wows. Every employee of the auto industry has a stake in the survival of the companies. That is Toyota's Mission Statement by the way. As I paraphrase, To continuously improve to provide the best products for lower cost to insure the company's survival and insure their jobs. When the Union fights to preserve an unnecessary job that with known improvements can be eliminated, that is a problem. When their co-workers show up to work drunk but they will not allow management to dismiss him, that is a problem. When a union forces the company to continue to pay benefits to future employees that they can not afford for present employees costing American automakers $1500 more per car, that is a problem. That money could be profit margin that can be taken to develop better processes and products to save all their jobs. Hindsight is 20/20 though and we can see the error of their ways. I do not know if we can save any of the American automakers. They are a sinking ship because they are falling behind Japanese and German automakers and do not have the profit margin to keep pace in future improvements and technology. At some point we will have to let them go to save themselves or let they will pull the whole country down with them. This money we are giving them now is a subsidy and not an investment because we have no assurance they will completely restructure and set up for the long haul. | ||
| Oldog |
Carlos: As usual an interesting commentary Thanks for these insites into this, well worth the time to read and contemplate. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Interesting commentary Carlos. One other question. How many FUTURE companies are we preventing from being formed because we are spending tax-payer money to bail out the Big Three? What if there were higher taxes in 1975 to save Woolworth's because it was a store chain that was simply "too big to fail"? Maybe a little company wouldn't have been started because the investors were more concerned about tax avoidance to invest. Maybe instead this would have been the first of many mugshots by this company founder and current Chairman:  Every company has the potential to become a top ten S&P component company. | ||
| Black9 |
Funny how you guys bash American Cos. like GM, sing praises for Toyota, but defend Buell,even though their problems per unit produced is, I would guess, higher than all the other previous mentioned cos.Outsourcing for the cheapest parts for the sake of a bigger bottom line is bound to affect quality, not how much a worker gets paid. Unions did NOT force cos. to accept contract terms that management felt they couldn't afford...plus was anyone bitchin about CEO compensation when things were going good? The American consumer is as guilty as anyone for the big threes problems, buying every SUV and truck they could make, anybody out there guilty of that? By the way, I'm a union member, own an 1125, my 4th. Buell and have owned 2 Harleys, not because they make the best bikes, but because they're American. Get er' done! | ||
| Aesquire |
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAqPMJFaEdY | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Funny how you guys bash American Cos. like GM, sing praises for Toyota, but defend Buell,even though their problems per unit produced is, I would guess, higher than all the other previous mentioned cos. Buell is 25 years old. Ford is over 100. If Buell is still making the same rookie mistakes GM, Ford, and Chrysler is making today after 100 years, they will fail. And should. Outsourcing for the cheapest parts for the sake of a bigger bottom line is bound to affect quality, not how much a worker gets paid. ALL companies source parts from the cheapest suppliers that provide the spec parts they need. Why would you pay $1.20/part when you could get one of equal quality for $.80? Unions did NOT force cos. to accept contract terms that management felt they couldn't afford Uh, yeah. They did.  It's called a strike. "Give us what we want, or we won't work." By the way, I'm a union member, own an 1125, my 4th. Buell and have owned 2 Harleys, not because they make the best bikes, but because they're American. Get er' done! THAT is EXACTLY the problem. I'm not willing to buy a product JUST because it is "American". I want the BEST product available. By buying inferior products just because they are American rewards mediocrity and stifles ingenuity. If you give the fifth place runner the gold medal, what incentive is there for that runner to train harder to win the gold next race? None. Why would "buying American" not include buying an Altima produced by AMERICAN workers 40 miles from my house? Why would "buying American" not include buying a Honda Minivan produced in Ohio? Why would "buying American" not include buying a Hyuandai produced in Mississippi? Could it be because these plants aren't UAW? | ||
| Just_ziptab |
"was anyone bitchin about CEO compensation when things were going good". . .. . .. ME! I've had a sore tooth about CEO compensation for......for ever. Nobody is worth that kind of money,regardless of how smart they are or what they do for the company. The board of directors/stock holders are the problem,as they are the ones that give the nod to that kind of compensation instead of saying "you can be replaced, you know".They are all in cahoots. How many coaches get shit canned for having one losing season and then go on to the next team for even more money? It's all about greed and the availability of it being too easy to pass up. | ||
| Black9 |
Does the money made by' American" Toyota stay in the US? ahhh NO. Wake up , ask the Air traffic controllers if they got there own way in the 80"s YOU would be making a buck a hour if your co. thought they could get away with it.. 'Look at Chinese, Mexican,etc workers if you don't think so. Bet you own a Buell, don't you? because it's the best for the money? cause it has the best resale? or maybe you just like over paying for so called character? I think it would be kinda hard buying even a used Buell for 2 bucks an hour., let alone a superior Honda.. | ||
| Black9 |
By the way, next time I here someone complain about 4.00 box of cereal while loading groceries in their $40,000 Acura, I'll scream! ( Yea, I make cereal) | ||
| Honu |
So if there were no unions anywhere in the USA the economy would flourish. And the Companies would could continue to pay decent wages?? Carlos pointed out a company that cut 50% of its engineering staff, so do Yall really believe that the companies would not cut everyone to minimum wage? The never ending quest for a bigger profit margin. That would fire the economy right up, plenty of money to spend on all the products being produced. What percentage of a UAW worker wages goes right back into the economy to live? | ||
| Black9 |
Hey, I got a good idea, how bout everyone that thinks that Darkhorse products are too expensive send a copy to Japan or some non - union machinist cuase I KNOW it can be done cheaper, or how bout Precisions products? .... get IT yet? | ||
| Buelltoys |
If Toyota didn't spend in the US then why are there new plants going up. Why did they build a new plant in Texas, why are they building a new plant in Louisiana? As for american made there is nothing that is completely american made in the US anymore. GM, Chrysler and Ford all buy parts from suppliers outside the US. Chrysler is running a Hyundai built 4 cylinder in there cars along with Mitsubishi and Mercedes. As for Hyundai, the Sonata and SanteFe are built in Alabama and have scored very good in quality reports. We are non-union which enables me to run a maintenance crew that is skilled in electrical, mechanical, piping, and iron work fixing the same type of equipment union workers do for the big 3. Only difference is that I have one man to turn a nut, remove the wires and take off the motor where the union has 4. It is not the wage difference it is the number of people you need to do one job. The Japanese, German, and South Korean automakers are creating more jobs for americans so they help the economy just as much. Should these companies get bailouts too. I say no, and the big three are no different. As for CEO's, I agree they all make too much money. When the head of a company can make more then the head of a country. Who you think has a harder job!! I also believe a person should only get paid while they are working not sitting at home doing nothing. It is bad when a company closes all of it's manufacturing plants but still paying 95% of the hourly wage to the employees who are not working. Does that seem fair? Ok, I've dug a deep enough hole for everyone to hate on me so I will shut my hole now. Brian | ||
| Buelltours |
Isn't the thunderstorm engine US-union-built? And the BRP Rotax engine comes from Austria (mandatory union)? The roots of the thunderstorm goes back to the 50s and the BRP is a brand new engine developed to compete with the market requirements of today? I would be interested in the cost of both to Buell. You should think that the BRP unit is more expensive since it is a state of the art product, since development cost needs to be amortized, freight has to be paid, and exchange rate disadvantages have to be overcome... But I would not be surprised if the Milwaukee unit was more expensive, because of all the said above... I really wonder about this when I compare the Invoice pricing of a 1125 and an XB12. Think about how much more there is to an 1125... Who knows? | ||
| Spatten1 |
I really wonder about this when I compare the Invoice pricing of a 1125 and an XB12. Think about how much more there is to an 1125... You kind of have to want the XB or a Harley for what it is, and because the price and the machine work for you. If you want to figure in what it "should cost" based on engineering, tooling, and amortization, you'll probably not get there. Using that math, you'll be on a Honda instead. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Does the money made by' American" Toyota stay in the US? ahhh NO. Ah, yeah it does. Toyota Motor Sales USA employs more than 36,000 AMERICAN employees. Do you own an IRA or 401(k)? Do you own a mutual fund? If so, YOU are an owner of Toyota and by virture sharing in the money "staying in the US". Wake up , ask the Air traffic controllers if they got there own way in the 80"s The Strike by the ATCs was ILLEGAL by their own contract. They were in breech of contract. The penalty was termination of employment. The collective bargaining benefit of unions is the ability to negotiate contracts. In good faith under the best circumstances. Under coercion under the worst of circumstances. YOU would be making a buck a hour if your co. thought they could get away with it.. 'Look at Chinese, Mexican,etc workers if you don't think so. I'm going to introduce you to a concept called Supply and Demand:  For a given price, there is a given demand. Equilibrium is achieved when the demand at a given price matches the supply. In this case, supply is labor and demand is the wage an employer is willing to pay. At equilibrium, the wage the employer is willing to pay soaks up 100% of the labor force (or close to 100%). THAT price is the market wage for that job. If the employer is willing to pay less than the equilibrium price, say minimum wage, MOST of the employees would be unwilling to work for that wage. The employer would not be able to produce and sell his goods, so the employer, needing workers, would increase the wages he is willing to pay until he is able to hire the number of employees he needs. Now, this employer is having to compete with other industries, other companies for these employees. If a new company enters the community needing employees, that company will need to compete for workers with the existing companies already hiring. If 100% of the employees are already hired by the existing companies, how will the NEW company get the workers it needs? It will have to offer more per hour than the existing equilibrium price (wage). The other way to look at it is that the demand has increased compared to the given supply:  The new company has increased the market price for workers. Workers from the existing companies will now be able to walk across the street to the NEW employer for more money per hour. Let's look at your statement. 12.1% of the workforce is currently "union" but 87.9% of the rest of the US workforce is not making minimum wage. Why? Is it because employers are benevolent? Bet you own a Buell, don't you? because it's the best for the money? cause it has the best resale? or maybe you just like over paying for so called character? I think it would be kinda hard buying even a used Buell for 2 bucks an hour., let alone a superior Honda.. In many ways, my Buell is inferior to Japanese manufactured bikes. In MOST ways, it is superior because of what it contains. Buell represents the next evolutionary leap in motorcycle design. The Big 4 have become stale, unimaginative, lazy. I see Buell where the Japanese manufacturers were in the 80's making cutting edge cars while the Big 3 were becoming stale, unimaginative, lazy. We now have better choices from Buell, KTM, BMW, Triumph, and Ducati than we do from the Big 4. We could see the same things that are happening to the Big 3 now happening in the motorcycle world to the Big 4. In addition, I get to help a NEW company to create a strong market performer. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
So if there were no unions anywhere in the USA the economy would flourish. And the Companies would could continue to pay decent wages?? Carlos pointed out a company that cut 50% of its engineering staff, so do Yall really believe that the companies would not cut everyone to minimum wage? The never ending quest for a bigger profit margin. That would fire the economy right up, plenty of money to spend on all the products being produced. What percentage of a UAW worker wages goes right back into the economy to live? There are currently only 12.1% of the workforce that is "union". How do the rest of us compete? Why are we all not making minimum wage? If the other 87.9% of the market benefits from the 12.1% that are union, union workers should be PISSED. I mean, really, the rest of us get a free ride without having to pay union dues. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Isn't the thunderstorm engine US-union-built? And the BRP Rotax engine comes from Austria (mandatory union)? The roots of the thunderstorm goes back to the 50s and the BRP is a brand new engine developed to compete with the market requirements of today? I would be interested in the cost of both to Buell. You should think that the BRP unit is more expensive since it is a state of the art product, since development cost needs to be amortized, freight has to be paid, and exchange rate disadvantages have to be overcome... But I would not be surprised if the Milwaukee unit was more expensive, because of all the said above... I really wonder about this when I compare the Invoice pricing of a 1125 and an XB12. Think about how much more there is to an 1125... Who knows? Look at the process another way. Look at if from the historical perspective of Aprilia. Who sourced their engines historically? Rotax. Who is sourcing their engines currently and for the future? Aprilia. Why is this? Aprilia lacked the experience and ability to make a market viable motorcycle sourcing it's own engines. The performance would be uncompetitive and the price would be uncompetitive. Aprila utilized Rotax to shorten the development cycle and help them to produce a really good market viable powerplant. Aprilia became profitable as a result of this developmental relationship. Aprilia, though, didn't need this "crutch" forever. When it was economically viable, Aprilia brought the engine development process in-house using the Rotax designs as a basis to build from. It sucks for Rotax, but Aprilia now has control over its engine design capacities at a level of cost and performance that will allow it to be successful and profitable as a company. Buell is doing the same thing. Buell is actually doing what the Japanese, Chinese, Indian, Taiwanese, and Korean companies have been doing for years. Buell is licensing the technology until it has the capacity, expertise, and financial ability to replicate the technology in-house. The NEXT platform after the 1125 will be a 100% Buell design produced domestically. | ||
| Just_ziptab |
"the rest of us get a free ride without having to pay union dues". . . . . . .No, when we buy the union made product, part of the money we spend goes to the union workers wages....so he can pay the dues...... Dues paid by proxy. Go to McCormick Place in Chicago and set up a show booth. Find that you have a 100 watt light bulb burned out in "your" booth. It will cost you over ONE HUNDRED DOLLARS to have that bulb replaced by the union and you can not bring your own bulb to your own booth and replace it. That is what sucks about unions. | ||
| Ferris_von_bueller |
Supply and demand is a myth. It's one of those concepts that works best in a textbook. There are so many other variables at work that supply and demand rarely come into play. A recent example of this would be the volatility in the oil markets. The extreme rise in a barrel of oil last year was based purely on speculators running up the price. Furthermore, government regulations prevent, and thank God they do, an open and free economic system or we would truly be.... slaves | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
"the rest of us get a free ride without having to pay union dues". . . . . . .No, when we buy the union made product, part of the money we spend goes to the union workers wages....so he can pay the dues...... Dues paid by proxy. Go to McCormick Place in Chicago and set up a show booth. Find that you have a 100 watt light bulb burned out in "your" booth. It will cost you over ONE HUNDRED DOLLARS to have that bulb replaced by the union and you can not bring your own bulb to your own booth and replace it. That is what sucks about unions. Understand completely. My wife has to set up for clothing shows in NY. There is NOTHING that they can do for themselves. NOTHING. These practices aren't about protecting workers. These practices are about protecting the union and union control. It's disturbing. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Supply and demand is a myth.  | ||
| M2nc |
One thing to add to this discussion, American Manufacturing is on the rise, not decline. The problem or solution however you look at it, is that most of the new manufacturing centers going up today are not managed by American companies and not in Union protected states. Right here in the county I work in, they just broke ground on a new large plant that will build components for French made Airbus. When the plant is fully operational it will employ 5000 employees. For this small community this is huge. Manufacturing in non-Union protected states is flourishing. That is economic proof enough that Union shops are not competitive and tens-of-thousands of non-Union manufacturers like Buell employees and me, make a good living without them. As a matter of fact the one thing the US has right now in this global economy is a wealth of skilled labor that is more productive than any other, and now due to the exchange rate of the dollar, are a bargain. This is why we are seeing a flood of European and Japanese companies investing in US manufacturing. The trend is so pronounced in Europe that it has been discussed in the halls of European governments. They call it the "American Condition." Law makers are trying to pass laws that will prevent people from working the hours most of us Americans work every day without batting an eye. It is all proof that American labor can be very competitive in a global economy. For the record the only non-American made vehicle I own is the Z50 (Fiddy). I do not own them because they are the best at everything but for the price they are hard to beat. My Suburban has 196,000 miles and it is my second one that reached over 185,000 miles with no problem. My Dodge min-van has 156,000 miles. I am saving for a new vehicle this year and am looking at Fords. Why? They are not taking hand outs. Silly? Maybe but I do route for the home team. | ||
| Court |
HINT: When we wanted to push motorcycles into the booth we found that sliding a $100 bill under the seat strap of each bike would buy "license" to do so and a union escort. Javitt's Center is the icon of what organized crime did to the local labor unions. For a fuller understanding read Corruption and Racketeering in the New York City Construction Industry" from the Interim Report by the New York State Organized Crime Task Force. HOWEVER . . . NYC is a drop in the national bucket and the example the Mr. Ft. Bstrd provided about supply and demand is spot on. Supply and Demand is easiest to explain, surely, in a text book using #7 Hard Red Winter Wheat but it's as real as it can be. | ||
| Ferris_von_bueller |
Give me a break. Unions dont operate their own companies. They provide labor. A $100 to replace a light bulb in a commercial setting is cheap. This is why electrical contractors dont routinely change light bulbs because it's not cost effective for the customer. However, McCormick Place is owned and maintained by The Metropolitan Pier and Exposition Authority, a municipal corporation created by the Illinois General Assembly. It is not owned or "run" by unions. The reason you cant change your own light bulb has nothing to do with unions but everything to do with safety and liability. Winter can't end soon enough | ||
| Black9 |
Talk about fairy tales, don't believe everything you read in the obviously bias press, other wise you might start believing Buell makes inferior motorcycles ... |
