| Author | Message | ||
     Xbduck |
City, you are correct in emphasizing,"how a state funded, nationalized industrial nation functions (or doesnt)." We have seen how it doesn't, I just don't see where this loan has taken us there, YET. It is a very slippery slope, and we must be extra vigilant at this time to make certain it does not happen. What peeves me more than the auto industry loan is the money spent on banks that won't do the right thing and back American industry. A profitable company will go under because they can't get a loan for payroll. Loaning for payroll was common when a company's cash flow is positive, just not flowing as needed. Then the bank says that the gov't didn't tell them they had to loan the money. O.K. 'peeves' is to small a word, yet this is a PG board.   Sorry I strayed from the auto industry (Message edited by xbduck on December 19, 2008) | ||
| Buellgrrrl |
IIRC, George probably died of syphilis, Thomas was a slave owner, and Adams... Great men in some ways, but in no way entitled to pass judgement. There's nothing in the constitution barring government loans, they've been making them for decades. W. should have been impeached long ago for numerous other offenses though. Burning people who have been convicted of no crime, or people that have for that matter, is barred by the constitution. The representatives you cite have been duly elected and reelected by their constituents as called for in the constitution. FB, you seem to be advocating violent overthrow of our duly elected government. That sort of behavior will earn you the title of "domestic terrorist" and get you lots of attention from various law enforcement agencies... | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
FB, you seem to be advocating violent overthrow of our duly elected government. That sort of behavior will earn you the title of "domestic terrorist" and get you lots of attention from various law enforcement agencies... One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. From a strict constructionist viewpoint, Washington, Jefferson, and Adams have COMPLETE authority to pass judgment over how the government operates based upon what THEIR intent was in it's creation. There is nothing that GRANTS the Federal Government to provides loans. Doing so is outside the purview of the authority granted to the Federal Government by the Constitution. What the Federal Government can do is specifically delineated in the Constitution. Any other role not specifically delineated by the Constitution is reserved by the STATES. Were there actionable, convictable evidence warranting impeachment, I would be the first to champion that action. To this point, there hasn't been. Reallocating $15B beyond the direct legislative edict of Congress, IS actionable and convictable. The issue is that not action is being taken because this is what the current minority of Congress wants and there is not enough time for the majority to do anything about it. | ||
| 86129squids |
Time to make some sausage, you'ns Dialogue and discussion, active interest and involvement produce the best results in how we manage to live our lives. Good stuff, you'ns yakkin, from keen and strong minds. What we don't need is polarity- we need cycling freekquencies/ and realistic assessment. Got my flu shot today! Looking forward to the campfires at MBVI. Would someone please let me know when you grok this shizzz?? | ||
| Ferris_von_bueller |
Remember this discussion when we have taken up arms against our government.  | ||
| Cityxslicker |
235 years ago there was a little party on the east coast for way less than what we are seeing here. If the government is going 'own shares' industry it ought to be nationalized, otherwise, government, should stay the happy hell out of industry and let the free market economy take care of itself. I am not just down on the auto industry for their bail out, the insurance/banking industry never should have been given their either. | ||
| Ferris_von_bueller |
IIRC, George probably died of syphilis, Thomas was a slave owner, and Adams... Great men in some ways, but in no way entitled to pass judgement. Washington died of Syphilis ? You know this how? Adams was a slave owner? He was the only one that WASN'T. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
You know this how? She personally knew the woman who gave it to him.  | ||
| Brumbear |
whats wrong with owning a couple slaves. I always wanted a verticaly challenged chinese stutter with a full beard I shall call him ••••••• I check ebay regularly and no good | ||
| Oldog |
She personally knew the woman who gave it to him. Why I never want to be on the sharp end of Jeremys' wit Thanks for a great LAUGH !  } I owe you a Ce-gar for that! 235 years ago there was a little party on the east coast for way less than what we are seeing here Taxation with represetation does not work to well either. } (Message edited by oldog on December 19, 2008) | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Taxation with representation by self serving, mentally deficient, corrupt, imbeciles. I don't think that's what the folks in Boston had in mind. | ||
| Swampy |
I just had a VERY unpleasant run-in with the Homeland SSecurity force at a ground border crossing. My mom had a passport and my wife and I had our birth certificates and drivers licenses. They searched our car making us leave our cell phones in the car and had us go inside and play 100 questions. The funny thing is all three of us are US born Americans and even with all that documentation and our lilly white cracker faces standing there, the doofus behind the counter still asked us where we were born.....Go figure? Maybe he couldn't read engrish? Oh yeah, by the way, guess who got these storm troopers who were just "Doing their Job" in place? Good old King George! The hole time I'm wondering just what in the hell was the purpose of this little excersise? The real sad part about it was, less then 12 hours earlier, I walked through the steam of the Holocost Memorial in Boston, so in a way I am very angry with myself. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
They can only stop "crackers". Stopping anyone who isn't lily white is profiling. I wish "King George" had actually secured our borders. I'd play 100 questions if it meant that we stopped the flow of illegal aliens. | ||
| 4cammer |
In 3 months GM and Chrysler will not be any better off than they are now, will have no real business plan or breakthrough vehicles to get people in the showrooms. The Japanese passed the big 3 by while they counted on loyalty sales, and now the Koreans are doing the same. Look at a Hyundai Genesis yet? Wow. They will then file BK and we will be out 17B $$. Wait, and see. **************** "There's nothing in the constitution barring government loans, they've been making them for decades. W. should have been impeached long ago for numerous other offenses though." Buellgrrrl What exactly? | ||
| Rotorhead |
I feel everyone has Pointed the fingers in the wrong direction. The Power in all this has turned to the UAW. think about it. Pause Think some more?????? Bingo. They con'd all the BIG 3 CEO's to pay people not to work and make crappy products for huge pay. Now they can strike to get more pay to make crappy cars directly from the government. The UAW now has the trump card in the with it's "3,000,000 out of work US citizens". Not a single non-union car maker in the US is asking for money, there making it with non-union labor that has a share of there pay it what they build. MY union rep relative is turning over in his grave right now. Begin new riot's and flames now. | ||
| Mr_grumpy |
If you'd like a historical parallel to study, take a look at the British car industry in the 70s, or the British Bike industry. Both former world leaders that thought they could go on producing the same old rubbish & people would keep on buying it. All that's left are a few niche manufacturers, & some famous old names that are owned by foreigners. Time to wake up! | ||
| Az_m2 |
I don't think the big 3 are producing "the same old rubbish". They are putting out damn fine vehicles, including high mpg ones. And, they're selling millions of them. They lost a lot of market share because of crappy products in the past. Isn't the issue now that they are just not making money? Operating costs too high? Chris | ||
| Brumbear |
I beg to differ good sir My 2007 Ford edge is going in for it's seventh visit for transfer case seals next week in 14 months. Check the internet this I am sorry to say is more the norm than the exception | ||
| Court |
My 2006 F-150 has been flawless. Cheap and easy to own. Bush punted. | ||
| Buellgrrrl |
Agreed on the F150- it may be a gas hog, but they're damn near unbreakable. Back when I spotted trailers at the Post Office I got to know a lot of the couriers that delivered there. One of the more successful ones was an older couple that used an F150. They were real pros and unlike the younger drivers that raced around like crazy, they drove carefully but stayed on schedule because they knew how to use a map. They put 100,000 miles on an F150 in about 18 months, then traded it in on a new F150. They had zero breakdowns and virtually no repairs- just regular maintainence. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Consumer Reports has American cars improving but not quite on par with offerings from Japan. Korean manufacturers are still below American manufacturers but are gaining fast. | ||
| Ferris_von_bueller |
I've owned Jeeps for years- (2)Wranglers,(2)Cherokees, (1)Liberty and (2) Grand Cherokees. I currently own an 07 Grand Cherokee and the most problem I've had with any of them is the power window cable snapped. Oh, and I've put at least 100k on all of them. At work we use Chevy Express vans, exclusively, and run them over 200k with minor problems, mostly fuel pumps around 100k. | ||
| Court |
There's a reason the F-150 has been the best selling vehicle for something like 28 years running . . . . It's not the best on gas but I'd suggest that lots more folks TALK about fuel economy than enter it into purchase decisions. But . . . I confess I was able, when gas was around $5.00 a gallon, to sell the "Buying a Porsche that gets 22MPG makes economic sense as it is 10MPG better than the truck and, over time, will therefore pay for itself". I left out the part that the payback period was 573 years.  | ||
| Xl1200r |
Court - good point about MPG - unless you're talking about a rather large swing, a few MPG here or there makes so little difference, it's amazing how much attention a 33mpg car gets over a 32mpg one. The fact that the Toyota Pruis sales figures have dropped so dramatically recently may be a sign of people waking up. In 3 months GM and Chrysler will not be any better off than they are now, will have no real business plan or breakthrough vehicles to get people in the showrooms. The Japanese passed the big 3 by while they counted on loyalty sales, and now the Koreans are doing the same. Look at a Hyundai Genesis yet? Wow. They have business plans NOW - do you really think these want to go out of business? And have you actually been in a Korean car lately? Better than before, but it's the same old plastic garbage and lack of soundproofing as before. They look like a bargain if they're the only thing you're looking at. | ||
| Wolfridgerider |
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| Cityxslicker |
A nation brought forth by our for fathers so the that the protected wealth and greed of the elite shall not perish from these shores. It was a lame duck cop out, that will be the precursor of other great socialist failures (and I am including the BANK/INSURANCE bailouts) WTF ever happened to laissez-faire? | ||
| Rocketsprink |
"I feel everyone has Pointed the fingers in the wrong direction. The Power in all this has turned to the UAW. think about it. Pause Think some more?????? Bingo. They con'd all the BIG 3 CEO's to pay people not to work and make crappy products for huge pay. Now they can strike to get more pay to make crappy cars directly from the government. The UAW now has the trump card in the with it's "3,000,000 out of work US citizens". Not a single non-union car maker in the US is asking for money, there making it with non-union labor that has a share of there pay it what they build. MY union rep relative is turning over in his grave right now. Begin new riot's and flames now." One of the most uneducated post I've ever seen on the badweb. We don't want to rely on foreign oil, but you're all jumping over foreign cars. Not a single non-union manufacturer is asking for money because they're getting from their FOREIGN GOVERNMENT fool! That and they can take anything back from the workers at any time without question. "MY union rep relative is turning over in his grave right now." What a stupid comment. That ranks right up there with the "I have a black friend so..." Some question for people with this piss ass attitude. If you're so AMERICAN, why are you so ANTI-AMERICAN toward our workers? Why do you think American workers should make less money? Why should the American worker fall inline with the low paying jobs of the rest of the world? Why shouldn't the rest of the world fall inline with American Workers? Why should CEO's be able to make Millions, why the employees get paid peanuts? Why all the Union bashing? For if not for the Unions fighting for workers rights, we'd ALL be much worse off. If only 8% of the American workforce is Union, why are people losing jobs left and right? If it's the Unions fault that the "BIG 3" are failing, why are all car manufacturers doing poorly now in sales? You don't believe that the fact that no one can afford to buy a car right now has something to do with the problem? Lot's of Wal-Mart mentality here on the badweb. You all want something for nothing. With the reputation Buell has in the Motorcycle world, why on Earth would you buy one? I mean, other than the 1125, which has been riddled with problems, the rest are oil leaking, air cooled, push rod, old technology, rattle cans. They aren't fast, the headlight are too dim......... the list goes on and on. Why not buy one of those high tech, much more reliable, better built foreign bikes? | ||
| Xl1200r |
Rocket, I don't think anyone wants American workers to make peanuts, but companies are failing in an industry whose line workers make a considerable amount more than the competition, and who also get paid 95% of thier wages for NOT working. Nobody wants them to be paid peanuts, but rather to be paid fairly. What's the point in paying workers so much that the companies emplying go belly up? Doesn't seem very productive to me. | ||
| Reindog |
You ladies can argue all you want but the party for the UAW is over. Either now or in the near future. The bailout is just throwing good money after bad and will only prolong what is inevitable unless fundamental change occurs. American autos can not compete and hence can not innovate with the current hackles of the UAW contracts. The Big Three will die either a slow or fast death. In the ashes, more automobile companies will rise up and will be competitive without the UAW vampirism. Let it happen. In either way, the UAW is done. The Party is over. | ||
| Rocketsprink |
Define fair. Fair that the CEO makes more in one year than said employee will make throughout their career and retirement? Fair pay by whose standards? China's? Japans? Korea's? Those people worked for their retirement, and now it should be taken away? Good. Now they can go on welfare, food stamps and state aid. Or let's roll it into a 401 because the stock market is doing so well. I don't see the employees being as big as a problem as some are making it out to be. I see a lot of it being upper management and no one seems to be concerned about it. Workers, yes WORKERS drive this economy. Take more money out of our hands, and you think the economy sucks now? You haven't seen anything yet. 3rd World Nation, here we come. I'd still like and answer on the Buell question. Also would like to know why you deleted your post after mine Court? |
