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Glitch
| | Posted on Saturday, December 20, 2003 - 08:07 pm: | 
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I must be missing something.
Any way I'm still curious as how well the stack works. As the 12 box top did so well this really has to work as the rubber one probably warps as it heats up.
And I still am interested in meeting Buellers in this area.
I did not want to rub anyone the wrong way, if I did, I do apologize. |
Brion
| | Posted on Saturday, December 20, 2003 - 09:03 pm: |
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Glitch,
Take a look at the link that Roadkill posted. You will find the dyno test chart, which should give you some idea what to expect. We are going to run another test on a different dyno to confirm the numbers. However the delta in comparison between the stock and the one with the VS should be fairly acurate. We are trying to make it as cheap as possible. If you remember my first post about the porting and polishing of heads, I was complaining about cost. Actually that is what inspired Corey and I to develop this VS. Look at the money people are spending to make their engines breathe, and take a look at the POS they are all breating through. Preliminary tests show excellent results with stock and modified engines. I really want to find out how much better it will work with the 12 airbox.
I don't have a motorcycle shop or retail business. I have loads of mechanical background, especially in industrial turbo-machinery, centrifugal and reciprocating compressors, superchargers and turbochargers. I try to share what I believe is good information on this site which I believe the inception was intended to do. I am sure that there is plenty of schepticism about new and inovative products and I can understand why. But if I did not believe in the information I shared I would not do it. I have nothing to gain. I was a member at this site for two years before I made my first post. The reason I did not say anything until now is I was new to riding Buells and did not have anything to share. Now I feel that I do. If the velocity stacks perform well and market well also, maybe I will make a little change, but that was not the reason for the development of this product in the first place. My disappointment with the stock performance of an otherwise inovative motorcycle inspired me to make mine run as good, or better than my S3 without making major modifications and I believe this velocity stack is a step in the right direction.
Brion |
Glitch
| | Posted on Saturday, December 20, 2003 - 09:52 pm: |
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How/where does the blanket fit?
The lean that the HiPo sensor puts in the midrange. Doesn't that hurt the engine?
I would think the stack (yours) would only do better in the 12 box top. |
Glitch
| | Posted on Saturday, December 20, 2003 - 09:54 pm: |
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it was added mainly because the bike was running lean midrange
Never mind I had it backward... |
Oldmanfirebolt
| | Posted on Saturday, December 20, 2003 - 10:06 pm: |
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The thermal blanket fits under the lower half of the internal air box. It is designed to both reflect radiant heat and insulate the bottom of the air box cover. It mounts using the same screws that attach the lower half of the air box.
I was able to pull some tests using the XB12 Air Box vs. the XB9 Airbox on my 2003 XB9 and found that I lost volume but increased my velocity, and as such, actually ran leaner than the XB9 Air Box.
The XB9 Air box has more volume but less velocity vs the XB12 Air box. Thus the reason I tried the High Performance O2 Sensor on the stock 2003 Bike for the dyno runs.
If you get too lean in the mid, you are correct it is not good for the bike, but those numbers are relative to the duration of the lean mix - in other words, it did not remain lean for long and stabilized quickly.
Important to note is the amount of HP the Velocity Stack generated at lower RPM Ranges, giving the short stroke XB9's even more potential over the XB12's in the 1/4 mile and further at top-end. The shorter stroke, faster revs, and quicker HP all generated from better breathing help the XB9's really crank out HP quickly.
Conversely, opening up the exhaust in combination with just the larger air flow and higher velocity will hurt the low-end big time by changing to 1.75" or larger headers and open exhaust like the NALLIN/Force Pipes. What you hurt here is exhaust velocity and that is going to KILL your bottom end all to hell.
Bottom line is more air in allows for more fuel to be efficiently burned and as such you can then extend the fuel pulse duration for improved performance to create more HP at lower RPM ranges and produce an even torque curve throughout the RPM range.
Cheers!
CBJ
edited by oldmanfirebolt on December 20, 2003
edited by oldmanfirebolt on December 20, 2003 |
S320002
| | Posted on Saturday, December 20, 2003 - 10:19 pm: |
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"I think it's ludicrous not to be able to link products or companies simply because they don't advertise here..."
I agree with Rocket. If the product is worthwhile to those who heard about it here will let the designers know. If Blake plays his cards right he will get his nickel. And after all the V stack mentioned is not a production item. How else are we supposed to find out about it?
Lightn' up for cryin' out loud.
Next thing you know somebody's gonna tell me I oughta pay Willie Nelson extra royalties just 'cause I played "Red Headed Stranger" while I was twistin' wrenches. |
Oldmanfirebolt
| | Posted on Sunday, December 21, 2003 - 06:00 pm: |
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Ok, 12.21.2003 - Riding impressions with #2 Prototype Brion-James Velocity Stack:
Update for Buckinfubba and Brion on actual road testing on my trip back from Atlanta.
While it was nice and brisk to my ride home from Atlanta (398 miles), My 2003 XB9R ride was flawless. From the start the bike came out really quick, I kept it decent (speed and RPMs) once on Hwy 20-West off the 285 Loop I kept it about 70 miles per hour outside of the 285 loop.
A few passes and my experience is that the roll-on from 70 to 90 was really quick and snappy... no "pops" or burps at all.
Once I hit 65 North off of Hwy 20 I cranked up the volume a bit and the roll-on from 80-100 is like right now! There was a small stretch of road (pretty straight) from I-65N to Hwy 157 N. @ Cullman and I accelerated at 130 MPH for the 1 mile sprint to exit 310. That 1 mile came up really quick! 
Once I hit Hwy 157N I almost always need to fill up, I estimated that I had about 1 gallon left which confirmed my on road experience that the bike was getting better MPG. I would say that maybe 2-5 miles to the gallon (but can not confirm this).
Glitch, when I make it back to Atlanta, let's ride sometime... I would enjoy it very much and will give you a shout when I am down that way again.
Buckinfubba, I hope that your experience is equally as rewarding both on the butt-dyno and on the actual dyno runs. All I can confirm is that with both the XB9 Air Box and XB12 Air Box the road testing went really well today. My wife followed me in her Durango and I changed to the XB12R Air Box once I hit Cullman, AL. My butt dyno did not feel any significant difference, but my ears did. The XB12R Air Box Sounded a little bit louder (in a good way), and otherwise performed equally if not better in feel than the XB9R Air Box.
Brion, I now have 823 miles on the Velocity Stack and can tell you that it looks good at this end.
I found that the ceramic coating CERAMACOAT did an outstanding job in air box temps as measured on the road at 64.3 degrees average when on the road... not bad when you consider ambient temps were 53 degrees out at that time. When I moved the termalcouple after I arrived home to just under the air box the temps rose to 90 degrees, so yep, it works!
CBJ.
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Glitch
| | Posted on Sunday, December 21, 2003 - 09:38 pm: |
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Oldmanfirebolt, any time you are in the area just let me know. I know some roads around here and north of here that are awesome.
Were you using the hipo sensor on this trip back to Alabama?
Speaking of Cullman...That's where my Grandmother lives! Small world huh? |
Wyckedflesh
| | Posted on Sunday, December 21, 2003 - 09:58 pm: |
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S3...don't give ASCAP or the RIAA any more ideas. |
Oconnor
| | Posted on Sunday, December 21, 2003 - 10:06 pm: |
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So whats the deal with the hipo O2 sensor? |
Admin
| | Posted on Monday, December 22, 2003 - 05:44 am: |
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Something stinks here. 
Admin is very unhappy. |
Glitch
| | Posted on Monday, December 22, 2003 - 07:51 am: |
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Admin: What's the problem? |
Blake
| | Posted on Monday, December 22, 2003 - 08:48 am: |
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Rocket, Greg
quote:I think it's ludicrous not to be able to link products or companies simply because they don't advertise here \ conflict with those that do. Hell it's not like several thousand or even several hundred people are gonna rush out and by from a non-Badweb sponsor - more like a mere handful if anyone at all - big deal.
In the interest of all Buell owners surely this site should be a free haven for ANY Buell product and those companies that contribute to Badweb financially should regard their advertising privilege as a massive bonus in promoting their company.
Having the Badweb a closed shop surely must prevent in certain circumstances some Buell product manufacturers sometimes posting here - to the detriment of Buell owners.
Rocket
You seem to suffer from the same delusion/confusion as Brion. Hyperlinks and casual conversation including hyperlinks to other sites even those of non-sponsoring Buell related businesses are not frowned upon here. In fact they are encouraged; that is precisely what the hyperlink function is for.
What IS frowned upon and what apparently I have not clearly explained through multiple attempts, is the active promotion of another Buell discussion forum or a non-sponsoring business venture.
Statements like...
"Here is another site that I think you will enjoy http://groups.msn.com/somenewBuellforum"
or...
"Go to http://groups.msn.com/myBuellpartsbusinessdisguisedasadiscussionboard
offered in rapid succession especially by a user who has little or no prior history on the board leads me to suspect less than genuine intentions.
Plus in the case of a discussion board, isn't that the same as if Cycle World ran an ad in Motorcyclist, or if Guido of Guido's Pizzaria walked into Tony's Pizzaria and started handing out his coupons to the customers?
Disallowing "promoting" or "advertising" does not preclude the sharing of a simple hyperlink, especially if it is a hyperlink to a site that is of no material significance to the poster. No "promoting" or "advertising" as in seeking to garner attention for purposes of personal gain. That is the intention and spirit of the policy here.
As always anyone is free to post hyperlinks with as much accompanying salesmanship as they like in the "links" topic.
It is a big deal for a salesman to gain free access to advertising on BadWeB. The line must be drawn somewhere or the value of sponsorship goes down the toilet, with any and all eager salesmen and individials seeking to start a new business flooding the site with spam post. So then BadWeB loses its funding and the site ceases to exist. I don't believe that we have any sponsors seeking to carry the expenses of this web site purely for the glory of it. There ain't any glory in it. Well, maybe for Dave and Brian as they have become permanent Buellebrities through their hard work and dedication to our enthusiasm.  They help fund the site because it is damn good business. You should know that I cannot afford to pay for it out of pocket. I am NOT a rich man in material terms.
Neither do I want the site to degrade to a free for all of salesmen. The line MUST be drawn somewhere or the integrity of the forum would suffer. Am I possibly overzealous in protecting that line? Maybe, in some cases. Big deal. Get over it. Lose the fragile ego.
And for crying out loud, it's not like I come down with an iron fist all dictatorial like. Though some indignant small people seem to think so. You tell me... Look at what I say...
quote:FYI,
Promoting other Buell boards and non-sponsoring Buell or other commercial ventures on this 100% sponsor supported grass roots Buell enthusiasts' site is sincerely frowned upon. Why on earth would we want to help support MSN or Yahoo and erode our own base of knowledge/participation when we can instead help support some of the best most enthusiastic and proactive Buell dealers and performance specialists on the planet?
Thank you for your consideration,
Not an order or command anywhere, no personal insult, nothing degrading, a fairly comprehensive explanation, overall very polite and respectful. But in return I get indignant hostility. All for doing a job that gains me exactly ZERO in material terms.
I abhore the idea of a dictatorial operation. I refuse to seek profit through this site. I really like to think of this site as belonging to all of us equally. Some here make that difficult. I wish they would cease doing so.
Anyway, the above is not what I was referring to when I said "Something here stinks."
That story promises to be far more entertaining.
Cheers, and thanks for letting me vent.
Blake (beleaguered BadWeB admin)
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Blake
| | Posted on Monday, December 22, 2003 - 09:27 am: |
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Here is some smelly stuff...
Important to note is the amount of HP the Velocity Stack generated at lower RPM Ranges, giving the short stroke XB9's even more potential over the XB12's in the 1/4 mile and further at top-end.
HP rules the 1/4 mile and the XB9 falls short compared to the XB12. No velocity stack is going to change that.
The shorter stroke, faster revs, and quicker HP all generated from better breathing help the XB9's really crank out HP quickly.
I don't follow you at all...
How is a "short stroke... generated from better breathing"? 
What is meant by "quicker HP... crank out HP quickly?" What does that mean? HP is torque times rpm divided by 5252. There is no "quickness" to HP output. It is what it is. The quickness would be in acceleration, and the bike with the most HP will accelerate the quickest.
Conversely, opening up the exhaust in combination with just the larger air flow and higher velocity will hurt the low-end big time by changing to 1.75" or larger headers and open exhaust like the NALLIN/Force Pipes.
That's not how I understand things. The Nallin/Force Pipes do indeed boost low end and top end SIGNIFICANTLY. Where they suffer a slight compromise is in the mid range.
What you hurt here is exhaust velocity and that is going to KILL your bottom end all to hell.
That isn't the way I've learned it. The exhaust velocity has little do do with it. Exhaust tract performance is governed by pressure pulse characteristics, the exhaust tract geometry affecting their behavior, and the flow resistance (backpressure) of the exhaust tract. An optimally designed exhaust tract seeks to reduce resistance to flow while putting a negative pressure pulse at the exhaust port during the overlap event.
The properly designed larger diameter pipe will provide significantly reduced resistance to flow, thus reducing backpressure. Proper length headers and an optimally designed muffler section will put a negative pressure pulse at the exhaust valve during the overlap event, and it will do so over the most desirable widest range of engine speed.
I'll let Pammy or Aaron correct me if I'm wrong.
I abhor the marketing of any product through the tactic of badmouthing its competitors. That strategy pretty much says that the product so advertised cannot stand on its own merits, if it could, the badmouthing would not be necessary. What's even worse is contrived badmouthing that is basically doubletalk with no technical merit.
Know what I mean Greg? Jump in here please and tell me I'm not wrong. |
Sammigs
| | Posted on Monday, December 22, 2003 - 10:33 am: |
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I think Hillbilly-Motors offers something similar. It's called F.A.S.T. (full air supply technology). It looks like a machined velocity stack, thermal blanket and various intake covers. |
Glitch
| | Posted on Monday, December 22, 2003 - 10:53 am: |
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Blake: Thanks for clearing the air, in both respects. |
Stoobr2
| | Posted on Monday, December 22, 2003 - 10:55 am: |
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Sammigs your are correct in what you say Trojan-Horse in the UK also stock the XB9/12 F.A.S.T (Fuel Air Supply Technology) goodies.
The thermal mat is £112 the Velocity stack is P.O.A.
They also stock a F.A.S.T Thermal mat,round clyindrical K&N filter (with aluminium adaptor/special interior funnel) all ready to be installed & inclusive of fittings £265
* They recomend the use of a "vented" airbox cover to get the best results,but have got 6-7bhp using the stock ECM & Exhaust. |
Prof_stack
| | Posted on Monday, December 22, 2003 - 12:43 pm: |
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An e-mail query I sent to Brion came back with a hard sell (get it now!) and paypal or check payment options.
Something didn't sound right... |
Roc
| | Posted on Monday, December 22, 2003 - 01:04 pm: |
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"I have loads of mechanical background, especially in industrial turbo-machinery, centrifugal and reciprocating compressors, superchargers and turbochargers."
Brion - you should make an XB turbo system. Oil/intake/exhaust layout on the bike - it is like it was made for it. You are even given a sealed plenum, air box, of what appears to be adequite size. |
Blake
| | Posted on Monday, December 22, 2003 - 01:29 pm: |
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Brion should get real.
Prof, I'm afraid you may be on to something. Still not 100% sure and my optimism in not yet totally eroded. I strongly suggest that no one send any money to these guys until they come clean. |
Glitch
| | Posted on Monday, December 22, 2003 - 01:55 pm: |
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I quietly waiting for Bubba's input after he gets his test unit. |
Bud
| | Posted on Monday, December 22, 2003 - 03:19 pm: |
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Ok,
Starting some rumors 
Jens Krüper ( hillbilly ) dyno’s with the hole airbox removed ( with out air filter & the IAT sensor through the velocity stack )
showed an in crease of 6 hp, ( September ‘03)
and after watching the buell-bonn race team run with an alu trick velocity stack ( 49mm throttle bore )
the idée was to make one for the stock throttle bore ,
and let the engine wizzez cook up an best performing curve off the bell and length off the stack.
Together with a isolating mat replacing the complete airfilter ass. & with the turbo airbox cover ( with the very big holes on top )
This sounded as a very good idée, there would more than enough air with out restrictions
and Jens asked me if I would like to “test run “ it for a while, to see if it would work and hold out in the real world. ( September 2003 )
I turned down the offer, because I live 20 miles from the sea side and I am not a good weather biker, I could see the problems coming with rain and sand entering the inlet
And also I believe that any bell/ velocity stack configuration will only perform better in a small rpm band ( low end or top end )
But I’m no genius with engine tuning ore ins and outs off airflow and pulsation’s , ( learning every day )
I just know some basics, from school ( many years back )
And I want some more bottom power , no high top hp for me ( don’t need it , and when I need it , I buy a busa )
But you could imagine, my surprise when I saw the “new” idée from CBJ.
Could be that 2 people hade the same idée and have the gut’s ( money ) to make some proto type’s and fiddle with it
Gr,B
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Buckinfubba
| | Posted on Monday, December 22, 2003 - 04:11 pm: |
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kinda scary running with out an airfilter in the real world I agree....while everyone is arguing over it it works . we will just wait and see....
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Prof_stack
| | Posted on Monday, December 22, 2003 - 10:53 pm: |
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My apologies go out to Brion from my posting above. It was his partner Corey James, not Brion, who responded to my e-mail query.
I am interested in their concept but need to see more proof about the effectiveness of the thermal blanket and metal velocity stack over the existing setup.
Personally I hope they succeed and perhaps with more sales can reduce the pricing for us cheapskates. ![:]](http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/clipart/proud.gif) |
Glitch
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 23, 2003 - 07:47 am: |
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Personally I hope they succeed and perhaps with more sales can reduce the pricing for us cheapskates.
And I would totally agree with Easyflier that $100 per HP rule is about right... that would put our prototypes to over $700 USD not including development time.
CNC will drop the price of manufacture, it WILL NOT change the rules of price per HP!
Don't look good does it... |
Noface
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 23, 2003 - 08:09 am: |
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>>CNC will drop the price of manufacture, it WILL NOT change the rules of price per HP!
>Don't look good does it...
Glitch, I was thinking the same thing 
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Buckinfubba
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 23, 2003 - 08:36 am: |
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value and price are mostly dictated by econ 101
supply vs demand
if no one pays or is willing to pay $700 it will not be $700 or if it is it will be $700 and never be sold.
either that or I am just stupid...hell the drummer shoulda cost about $1000...where'd I go wrong. oh wait I didn't it is selling.
everybody calm down for a second. don't count the chickens til you rip their heads off and they stop running around. |
Daves
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 23, 2003 - 09:32 am: |
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From a sponsor, thank you Blake.
Ride to the edge!
Dave
Iowa HD/Buell (Buell Cycle Center)
Proud sponsor of Badweb. |
Buckinfubba
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 23, 2003 - 10:01 am: |
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this hasn gotten so out of hand out of context and just blown up.
no one ever said it was going to be $700 it was taken out of context. it was said that it could be blah blah blah.
I will say this if it works it works if it don't it don't.
I am done with this until I test it.
and yes as dave said thanks blake.....
I will say this. I have said I'll test it can't everyone just wait a while. not that I am the end all end all. but I have never lied about results and I am not about to start to anytime soon.
I am not sure how this got so out of control but it has. so I am going back into my sandbox and play with myself for awhile and see if the sun comes out again |
Wyckedflesh
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 23, 2003 - 10:30 am: |
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Isn't that a bit gritty there Brian? I mean the sand gets so sticky and rough on the soft skin.... |
Buckinfubba
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 23, 2003 - 10:43 am: |
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maybe your skin is soft.... |
Wyckedflesh
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 23, 2003 - 10:47 am: |
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LOL...depends on what she is doing |
Glitch
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 23, 2003 - 10:59 am: |
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Well hell...
I can't figger out why I keep gettin' in trouble in this here thread.
Here is the link to the quote I made above. Sorry Bubba.
I was only tryin' t' help.
Reckon I'll just go ridin'...
Bubba, check yer hotmail...
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Nevco1
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 23, 2003 - 11:38 am: |
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I understand the value of testing the water and creating demand before a product is ready to manufacture, however, with this amount of detail and debate, isn't this inviting competition and increasing the likelihood of failure?
Oh well, it looks like the products actual value (not necessarily price) will be well defined on the dyno and in long term, real world riding environment testing. Like they say, "all that glitters is not gold."
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Buckinfubba
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 23, 2003 - 12:08 pm: |
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glitch I wasn't harping on you....man i feel like somebody shot bad web up with a lot of estrogen or something. god lets think instead of feel.
I am going to watch a dr phil and oprah marathon
then I am gonna shoot the tv just like elvis would do.
lets get back to laughing for cryin out loud
edited by buckinfubba on December 23, 2003 |
Glitch
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 23, 2003 - 01:03 pm: |
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 |
Aaron
| | Posted on Friday, December 26, 2003 - 12:28 am: |
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In case anyone is wondering, Corey James has not done 7 XB engines using Nallin Racing heads, Hurricane hollow stem valves, and Hurricane pistons, as he claims on his MSN site. We don't even know who he is.
Also, the notion that there's an XB15 engine with 104-ft-lbs at 7800 rpm and 130hp at 8000 rpm is a figment of someone's imagination. Those numbers defy the laws of physics, it's clear that whoever dreamed them up knows nothing about engines.
And if he thinks the XB Force pipe kills the bottom end, he's obviosuly never tested one. I'll ignore the other inaccuracies in his statements, Blake did a good job.
There's much more he's said that I have good reason to believe is not true. But those are the things I know for sure.
Appears he's moved on to ATC. |
Blake
| | Posted on Friday, December 26, 2003 - 01:42 am: |
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Mr. James and Brion his associate refuse to accept my terms for reinstatement here... simply that they come clean on their partnership, business dealings and pony up for one month of sponsorship. So far they have not accepted that offer. They have made too many claims that are false. The IP address of "Roadkill" is one in the same as "Oldmanfirebolt". Mr. James offered that "Roadkill" was a former employee of his that he has since fired. I could be wrong, but I am convinced that Brion and Corey have been less than honest with us and were out to promote their business, without helping to support our fine discussion forum.
I'll be presenting the issue to our board of custodians for their vote on whether to uphold or revoke their conditional suspension.
A conditional suspension can be removed by the suspended user simply by clicking on the "I agree" button just below the list of terms that are provided.
Anyone who uses the email forwarding and let's their mailbox overflow or has a bad email address knows what I am talking about. It is NOT banning. The guys simply need to agree to the very fair and simple terms in order to regain posting access here.
Just wanted to be clear on that. |
Dynarider
| | Posted on Friday, December 26, 2003 - 02:01 am: |
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Corey James & Brion are both full of shit. Brion comes here with his bs about Nology wires & now velocity stacks & god knows what else. Mr James & his pile of shit yahoo or whatever the hell site it is where he claims to be in cahoots with Erik & now ATC is a straight up liar.
Both of these guys think they can just throw some bs numbers up in the air & unsuspecting Buell owners are just going to throw their wallets at them. They are here to push their highly over rated by them crap & dont want to foot the bill as others like Tilleys, Nallin, etc have done. |
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