| Author | Message | ||
     Jstfrfun |
To my knowledge, anytime a bolt is stretched upon install it is deemed unuseable for future use due to the fact that it has already been stretched. Good example Dodge 2.2 motors. John? | ||
| Buellistic |
IMHO the only thing that would stretch is STUD,cylinder base PN16832-86C and not SCREW,internad thread(stud nut) PN16478-85A or 16480-92 ... "i" do not recommend removing STUD,cylinder base unless absolutely necessary !!! | ||
| Jos51700 |
1. If it's creaking, then the threads are too dry, and as stated, torque values are changing. It's essentially seizing, popping loose, and seizing again. 2. Antiseize has a very different coefficient of friction over oil. It's "antiseize", not "oil". If you doubt this, fill your crankcase up with antiseize instead of oil, and get back to us on how it turns out. Book says oil, I use oil. Engineer that wrote book got paid more than me, got published more than me, sees more warranty claims than me, has done more failure analysis than me, and has built more bikes than me, so he probably knows more than me. 3. Some bolts/studs are designed to stretch, and shrink when the load is removed, some aren't. If it were my bike, it'd get new studs. However hundreds of thousands of these motors have re-used studs with no recurrent issues. Torque-to-yield fasteners on the other hand, are tightened to the point that, essentially, any more tightening would result in failure. That's why replacement is rectamended every time. My Neon and 5.9 Magnum motors both get new head bolts. It's cheap insurance. Brake rotors (Several pages here on that, to be sure)? New bolts. Taillamp lens screws? Reuse 'em. If the book doesn't say anything, I typically look at replacement cost vs. failure cost, and decide from there. 4. If it leaks, find out why. Making it tighter doesn't solve the problem. As a guy that's done thousands of these by the book with no yo-yo's, my heart still races when I start a fresh motor, because I am afraid it will be the first to come back. This isn't saying I've never put one most of the way back together, and had to go back into it, but I've never started one and gone back. I follow the book. The book works for me. I lay awake at night and wonder why so many people follow the book and have problems. Everytime I've ever had a chance to witness someone use the book and have a problem, the problem lies with the person, or the person's tools. 5. Tools: Torque is a force acted about a radius. It's defined by the force (UOM: pounds) and the radius (UOM: Foot) (UOM=Unit of measure, United States). The wrench is calibrated to provide reference to varying forces (It "clicks" when you reach the force desired), but in order to provide an accurate reference, it can't have two variables (The force or the radius), and so they give you a handle, to make the radius a constant.  While I don't know (or WANT to know) what the effects are, in regards to the calibration of the torque wrench, when a 2 foot torque bar is involved, I can say with relative certainty this much: It isn't good practice. I own 3 torque wrenches. One is inch-pound (10-250 range). One is foot-pound (25-300 range). One is welded up solid, and gutted, and is partnered with an FLT fork tube, for breaking fasteners loose (and the occasional Chevy-bashing). These three meet my needs as an HD tech, Mopar enthusiast, and homeboy hobbyist. | ||
| Jstfrfun |
Ok since I haven't pulled my top end down I'm not aware, is the top end secured by bolt or stud? | ||
| Ducxl |
2. Antiseize has a very different coefficient of friction over oil. It's "antiseize", not "oil". If you doubt this, fill your crankcase up with antiseize instead of oil, and get back to us on how it turns out. Bottom line though,the graphite provides lubricity which the "OP's" threads are missing. | ||
| Ducxl |
Hey Jos...Ever added a "Torque adapter" to a torque wrench? There's an added calculation with those. usually they're plus two inches I use them from Snap-On to torque hard to locate nuts and bolts. | ||
| Buellistic |
"CLICK" type torque wrenches are nice expensive tools ... "BUT" no body ever mentions that they are high maintenance, ie: they have to be re-calibrarted on a regular basis ... If you drop it or hit a technician with it, off to calibration it must go ... | ||
| Buellistic |
19 inch extension multiplies X 2 ... 9 1/2 inch extension multiplies X 1 1/2 ... 4 1/4 inch extension multiplies X 1 1/4 ... If the extension is 90 degrees to the torque wrench it reads the same... Talk this to a technician and they go "DUH" ????????????????????????? | ||
| Jos51700 |
I've used torque adapters many times (Scope an ironhead sportster base gasket). But only @ 90 degrees. A torque adapter is far removed from applying a cheater bar to a torque wrench. I actually like a high-quality beam-type torque wrench over any other. They NEVER need calibration! | ||
| Jos51700 |
There are multiplier values for socket extensions, too, because they twist and absorb torque. | ||
| Scott_in_nh |
There are multiplier values for socket extensions, too, because they twist and absorb torque. Can you explain this please? If I put 10 ft/lbs on one end of a pipe it takes 10 ft/lbs on the other end to resist, otherwise it turns. The extension deflects in a twisting fashion requiring more degrees of deflection to get to the same torque reading, but the torque value is the same on both ends or it is still moving (tightening). 9 1/2 inch extension multiplies X 1 1/2 ... My math says 6 inch extension = 1.5 x the torque value. Or that you should lower your torque setting 33.3% Again - can you explain? | ||
| Buellistic |
The "INFO" that "i" posted goes back to the year of 1965 ... Taken out of the Engine TORQUE Specifications Hand Book of P.A. Sturtevant Company of Addison, ILLINOIS the maker of BAR TORQUE WRENCHES ... SEARS sold their TORQUE WRENCHES under the CRAFTSMAN NAME ... | ||
| Jos51700 |
I think Buellistic is referring to torque adapters, but I'm not sure. I don't know the math there because I've never had to use one in a manner that would affect torque values. The socket extension, though, will absorb some torque. There's not really any accurate math here, because every one is different. A cheap one flexes more than a high-quality, etc. It works like this: You twist away and provide 10 ft-lbs on one end. The end in a socket, which is on a bolt head or whatever, is going to push back with an equivalent force of 10 ft-lbs, (assuming the bolt isn't moving). Before the bolt twists, you're going to have some twisting in the extension. That twisting is absorbing force, and twisting force (torque) is what we're trying to measure, so our calculation become skewed. We've twisted, but nothing moved. Even if the bolt turns, the turning torque will absorb some force (The friction of the threads), and the extension will be twisting some, too. (The amount of extension twist changes as we tighten the bolt, and is never a constant. This is why race car builders use rodbolt stretch guages instead of torque wrenchs when installing connecting rods. Torque wrenches are actually pretty imprecise. | ||
| Scott_in_nh |
I'll agree that torque wrenches are imprecise, but I am not so sure on your other point! Yes you put energy into the extension when applying torque, but unless you have twisted it beyond it's elastic limit, you get all of that energy back when you release the pressure. If I were to put a torque wrench on each side of a extension and torque to 20 ft/lbs, both torque wrenches will read 20 ft/lbs. Your theory says one would read lower - so which one would it be? Force is being exerted on both in an equal amount or rotation is happening. | ||
| Buellistic |
The BOTTOM LINE here is, like any tool, they are basically a reference ... "i" prefer BAR TORQUE WRENCHES because they do not have to be re-calabrated ... ie: "SPARK PLUG" Torque ... SPEC's. indicate 11 to 18 ft. lbs. ... If it or they stay tight at 12 ft. lbs., WHY WOULD YOU WANT TO TORQUE(tighten) any tighter ??? TORQUE WRENCH MULTIPLIERS: this INFO comes(has come with torque wrenches that "i" have bought) with the TORQUE WRENCH which you should KEEP ... You have the option of making or buying the MULTIPLIERS ... Say you buy one from SNAP-ON, it should come with the MULTIPLIED "INFO" ... REMEMBER THIS: a multiplier used at 90 degrees is no longer a multiplier, "BUT" just and extension ... | ||
| Spiderman |
ie: "SPARK PLUG" Torque ... SPEC's. indicate 11 to 18 ft. lbs. ... If it or they stay tight at 12 ft. lbs., WHY WOULD YOU WANT TO TORQUE(tighten) any tighter ??? It's called a tolerance it is used as an upper or lower limit. Even your toque bar isn't a 100% accurate. There for they have to create a variance of value. | ||
| Jos51700 |
Yes you put energy into the extension when applying torque, but unless you have twisted it beyond it's elastic limit, you get all of that energy back when you release the pressure. If I were to put a torque wrench on each side of a extension and torque to 20 ft/lbs, both torque wrenches will read 20 ft/lbs. Your theory says one would read lower - so which one would it be? Force is being exerted on both in an equal amount or rotation is happening. My "theory" (The laws of physics, actually) never said one would read lower. The torque wrench measures ONLY while you are inputting force. True, the extension "springs back" when the load is released, but the torque wrench measures while the extension is absorbing that load, not after it is released. If you put torque wrenches on opposite ends of an extension, the force absorbed by the extension is divided equally among the two wrenches. Think "equal and opposite reaction". They're both off by equal amounts, and neither one is reading a true 20 foot pounds. By twisting the two wrenches against each other, through an extension, they would both click at a reading of 20 ft-lbs, but you would actually be inputting a force greater than that, into each wrench, with the excess being absorbed by the twisting of the extension. Do some research on "torque sticks" (or visit your local tire/wheel shop), for more explanation on the matter. | ||
| Firemanjim |
One thing to check as I just redid a bike that customer installed head gaskets in, he followed manual by the book but that put the called for o-rings with a non HD gasket that did not use them. Instant head gasket leak. | ||
| Scott_in_nh |
By twisting the two wrenches against each other, through an extension, they would both click at a reading of 20 ft-lbs, but you would actually be inputting a force greater than that, into each wrench, with the excess being absorbed by the twisting of the extension. Sorry, but that is impossible! The torque wrench will click at 20 ft.lbs, not less, not more. The torque wrench does not "see" the flex, it only reacts to the force imparted at the handle versus the resistance at the drive. The reaction to the 20 ft./lbs is a deflection of the extension, some will deflect more, some will deflect less, but all 20 ft/lbs will be transmitted to the other end which either fully resists the torque (doesn't move) or it rotates. Your own argument also fails because you say that there is greater than 20 ft/lbs of force on both torque wrenches, but how is is possible to transmit more force from one torque wrench to the other? That is I am only applying force to one torque wrench but am reading both. In this case the force must pass through the extension, which, according to you, is absorbing force, but ends up as a higher force when it reaches the other torque wrench? What you will do is move the torque wrench handle through a greater arc, that is you will be doing more work with the torque, but you will recover that work when the extension springs back. Please don't quote me the laws of physics unless you are quoting from a book. I am not the smartest guy on here, but I do deal with physical equations everyday at work and your post sounds condescending. If I am wrong, and my job teaches me that I can be,I am looking for the data or formula that proves it. just editing out some typos... (Message edited by scott_in_nh on November 11, 2008) | ||
| Buellistic |
NEVER TRUST WHAT A TIRE/WHEEL SHOP ... SAM'S did not know how to use torque wrench, RESULT UNDER TORQUED LUG NUTS, some were loose ... LINCOLN MERCURY DEALER way over torqued as some lug nuts were striped ... TOLERANCE: every thing is evenly tightened, which is very important on HEADS and COVERS ... INPUT FORCE: Not enough torque(not tight enough, will get loose very quickly ... Too much torque(over tighten and over tightened over time) make sure you can find a Helicoil Thread Insert Kit ... | ||
| Scott_in_nh |
Sorry for the hijack - to the original topic, I would say you need to start over with new studs and gaskets. I would not trust them now that they have been over-torqued (stretched). I would also go with the other post suggesting you have the head checked for flatness. | ||
| Scott_in_nh |
Buellistic, in the distant past I've had an improperly fastened tire come off my truck on the highway after having a brake job done. I also had the worst death wobble you can imagine going through a downhill, off camber turn in a vehicle that did not have the tie rod end adjuster tightened after a front end alignment. There are good mechanics out there, but I might be dead before I find one, so I'll continue doing work myself so long as I am able.... | ||
| Buellistic |
Scott_in_nh: When "i" take my motorcycle wheels in for tires they go CLEAN(plus no sprocket or rotors or weights) ... The last H-D Dealer tire technician told me he was unable to balance the wheel because of being CLEAN(sprockets, rotors, and weights) ... "i" ask him, do you re-balance the wheels if you replace a sprocket or rotor, his answer was NO ... "i" then said what is the problem then ??? His answer then was "DUH" !!! Haven't be back there ... The wheels off my CAGES go CLEAN(with out the vehicle and weights) ... | ||
| Jos51700 |
So, you don't balance the wheel the way it's actually run (with rotors and sprockets)? I bet if you balance it without, and then install them, you'll be surprised to find that it's out of balance again. | ||
| Scott_in_nh |
Considering how many guys around here run without balancing at all - there probably isn't a problem when balancing a wheel "clean" as you say, but why bother balancing at all then? I would only balance a wheel with the pulley and rotors in place (but that is just me). | ||
| Jos51700 |
Scott- I was not trying to be Condescending with you, and I apologize for coming across that way. I'll offer one last token of my point of view: We'll assume, for simplicity's sake, that one end of the extension is on a bolt, and we're torque-wrenching away on the other end. (I think we agree that if we're comparing two torque wrenches, the torque is split evenly between them. I'm still not sure why you think I said one would click first, but, I digress) So, we start torquing, and the extension begins twisting, along with the bolt tightening, agreed? And then the wrench clicks. We've just inputted 20 foot-pounds of torque, according to the wrench. So, we let off. As we're letting off, the extension untwists. It's giving us back our motion (which is some of the force we just put into it). Agreed? At the point of "click", in our example, we have: Input torque PLUS whatever torque is stored (twisted up) in our extension is our total torque. So our click is: Total torque (20 ft-lb) = input torque + stored torque (in the extension) So, when we let off, the "actual" torque on the bolt head is input torque MINUS the stored torque that was in the extension (because the extension twisted, and not the bolt). Some of our total torque was lost in the twisting/untwisting of the extension, which means that if our desired torque was 20 ft-lb, we're now somewhere under that. This is why I suggested researching "torque-sticks". This is the Exact principle they operate under, except they're calibrated. They absorb enough torque that they can't transmit any more than what they're rated for, regardless of the input force. (I think they're a piss-poor substitute for a torque wrench, and would weld them into art if I had a set, but that is how they work) This is (Going back to OP land, as intended) also why HD spec's engine oil, not anti-sieze, not assembly lube, not graphite, not butter, but clean ENGINE OIL, for use on head stud nuts. If you torque them down dry, then the stud absorbs some of the torque, and "springs back" when you're done twisting, and the various other lubricants (which ALL have their place, just not here) have differing coefficients of friction, and thus offer skewed torque results (And I've seen this proven, too. If you have the Snap-On digital torque wrench, try it out the next time you have your heads off.) I must admit, when I said: By twisting the two wrenches against each other, through an extension, they would both click at a reading of 20 ft-lbs, but you would actually be inputting a force greater than that, into each wrench, with the excess being absorbed by the twisting of the extension., I wasn't very clear on my point, and should have rpoofread. I was trying to state that, in order to input a true force of 20 ft-lbs into the wrench, you would actually input a force greater than that, into each wrench, with the excess being absorbed by the twisting of the extension. My apologies. Again, Scott, I am not trying to be condescending, and I do truly want to understand your point of view. I realize this has gotten slightly off topic, but if you still disagree, I would like to hear why, and try to understand you (Because, I am also perfectly capable of being dead-wrong). And, I do feel that there is some relevance to the OP's thread, and he does not seem to mind ANY input into how/why things are done. (Message edited by jos51700 on November 11, 2008) | ||
| Jos51700 |
there probably isn't a problem when balancing a wheel "clean" as you say, but why bother balancing at all then? I balance everything, as it runs on the vehicle, if possible. I know that alot of people don't balance and do just fine. I also know people that ONLY gravity-balance, but I trust modern measuring equipment most of the time. Like a friend said once, though "You don't have to calibrate gravity....." | ||
| Jstfrfun |
No John you are absolutely wrong. In fact, most M/C wheel-n-tire assemblies MUST be balanced "clean" because they Cannot! be balanced togeather...it just won't work!(at least in the rear where the drive hub must be removed at the rubber buffers),the drive hub is unstable without the axle. The brake rotors are ALLWAYS balanced from inception. Front tire-n-wheel is another story however(no drive hub) but both must be rid of spacers. BTW you never see a bike wheel being balanced"on the bike"do ya? | ||
| Jos51700 |
No John you are absolutely wrong. In fact, most M/C wheel-n-tire assemblies MUST be balanced "clean" because they Cannot! be balanced togeather...it just won't work!(at least in the rear where the drive hub must be removed at the rubber buffers),the drive hub is unstable without the axle. The brake rotors are ALLWAYS balanced from inception. This is in direct contradiction to the fact that: A. Most M/C balance machines use the brake rotor to grip the wheel to prevent rotation of the wheel on the arbor, because the cones on the arbor center inside the wheel bearings. (Which makes XB front wheels a pain, BTW). Does your shop pull the rotor or sprocket when they balance your wheel? (You do have to pull the sprocket to CHANGE a Blast rear tire, but not to balance) Proof:  B. Every sprocket-carrier/cushdrive-hub I've seen has it's own axle bearing, and uses that bearing to maintain concentricity. Like you stated, it needs teh axle to center itself, right? It is also this bearing that allows you to (in most cases) balance the complete rotating assembly, because the arbor goes where? Where the axle normally lives. C. Empirical evidence (Namely, me, changing motorcycle tires for the last decade) has proven you wrong. | ||
| Jos51700 |
OK, maybe the last one was a bit condescending... |
