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Dynarider
| | Posted on Sunday, November 30, 2003 - 01:17 am: | 
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Heres an a portion of an article on plug wires.
""CAPACITOR" EFFECT WIRES with grounded metal braiding over jacket
The most notable of exaggerated claims for ignition wires are made by Nology, a recent manufacturer of ignition wires promoted as "the only spark plug wires with built-in capacitor." Nology's "HotWires" (called "Plasma Leads" in the UK) consist of unsuppressed solid metal or spiral conductor ignition wires over which braided metal sleeves are partially fitted. The braided metal sleeves are grounded via straps formed from part of the braiding. Insulating covers are fitted over the braided metal sleeves. These wires are well constructed. For whatever reason, Nology specifies that non-resistor spark plugs need to be used with their "HotWires." In a demonstration, the use of resistor plugs nullifies the visual effect of the brighter spark.
Ignition wires with grounded braided metal sleeves over the cable have come and gone all over the world for (at least) the last 30 years, and similar wires were used over 20 years ago by a few car makers to solve cross-firing problems on early fuel injected engines and RFI problems on fiberglass bodied cars — only to find other problems were created. The recent Circle Track Magazine (USA, May, 1996 issue) test showed Nology "HotWires" produced no additional horsepower (the test actually showed a 10 horsepower decrease when compared to stock carbon conductor wires).
The perceived effect a brighter spark, conducted by an ignition wire, encased or partially encased in a braided metal sleeve (shield) grounded to the engine, jumping across a huge free-air gap (which bears no relationship to the spark needed to fire the variable air/fuel mixture under pressure in a combustion chamber) is continually being re-discovered and cleverly demonstrated by marketers who convince themselves there's monetary value in such a bright spark, and all sorts of wild, completely un-provable claims are made for this phenomena.
Like many in the past, Nology cleverly demonstrates a brighter free-air spark containing useless flash-over created by the crude "capacitor" (effect) of this style of wire. In reality, the bright spark has no more useful energy to fire a variable compressed air/fuel mixture than the clean spark you would see in a similar demonstration using any good carbon conductor wire. What is happening in such a demonstration is the coil output is being unnecessarily boosted to additionally supply spark energy that is induced (and wasted) into the grounded braided metal sleeve around the ignition wire's jacket. To test the validity of this statement, ask the demonstrator to disconnect the ground strap and observe just how much energy is sparking to ground.
Claims by Nology of their "HotWires" creating sparks that are "300 times more powerful," reaching temperatures of "100,000 to 150,000 degrees F" (more than enough to melt spark plug electrodes), spark durations of "4 billionths of a second" (spark duration is controlled by the ignition system itself) and currents of "1,000 amperes" magically evolving in "capacitors" allegedly "built-in" to the ignition wires are as ridiculous as the data and the depiction of sparks in photographs used in advertising material and the price asked for these wires! Most stock ignition primaries are regulated to 6 amperes and the most powerful race ignition to no more than 40 amperes at 12,000 RPM.
It is common knowledge amongst automotive electrical engineers that it is unwise to use ignition wires fitted with grounded braided metal sleeves fitted over ignition cable jackets on an automobile engine. This type of ignition wires forces its cable jackets to become an unsuitable dielectric for a crude capacitor (effect) between the conductor and the braided metal sleeves. While the wires function normally when first fitted, the cable jackets soon break down as a dielectric, and progressively more spark energy is induced from the conductors (though the cable jackets) into the grounded metal sleeves, causing the ignition coil to unnecessarily output more energy to fire both the spark plug gaps and the additional energy lost via the braided metal sleeves. Often this situation leads to ignition coil and control unit overload failures. It should be noted that it is dangerous to use these wires if not grounded to the engine, as the grounding straps will be alive with thousands of volts wanting to ground-out to anything (or body) nearby.
Unless you are prepared to accept poorly suppressed ignition wires that fail sooner than any other type of ignition wires and stretch your ignition system to the limit, and have an engine with no electronic management system and/or exhaust emission controls, it's best not to be influenced by the exaggerated claims, and some vested-interest journalists', resellers' and installers' perception an engine has more power after Nology wires are fitted. Often, after replacing deteriorated wires, any new ignition wires make an engine run better."
The rest of it can be found here. http://www.magnecor.com/magnecor1/truth.htm
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Dynarider
| | Posted on Sunday, November 30, 2003 - 01:21 am: |
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And heres a satisfied Nology customer
"WARNING WARNING WARNING!
On 7/14/95, David Cooley (cooldave@nando.net) wrote:
I was testing the Nology plug wires on my neon. Definitely saw
an increase in power, and about a 5-7% increase in mileage as well.
About a month ago, (wires 1 month old) I started having electrical
problems in the dash. Gauges going crazy while driving down the road
etc. The dealer has had the car 6 times in a month, the last time I
took it in, they replaced the entire wiring harness, then the
instrument cluster etc. After 6 days of work and conference calls
with the Chrysler tech support center, they decided to remove the
nology wires "just in case". Problem gone. The dealership couldn't
cover it under warranty, because an aftermarket part caused the
problem, but they did eat 1/2 of the 25 hours labor involved and
didn't charge me for parts. I am now trying to get Nology to
reimburse me for the $1200 involved for labor, rental car, and the
cost of their wires.
I would recommend to anyone with a computer controlled vehicle to avoid
these like the plague!!!"
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Dynarider
| | Posted on Sunday, November 30, 2003 - 01:32 am: |
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And another happy fella
"The warning that follows is based on my own personal experience using Nology HotWire spark plug wires in my 95 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX, and web research. Your own experience might differ.
UPDATES AT THE BOTTOM
In late 1997 I purchased a set of Nology HotWire spark plug wires for my 95 Eclipse GSX, on the recommendation of a fellow performance enthusiast. Once installed in my car, it seemed that my car performed slightly better than it had with the old, stock wires. I later learned that this was more likely the result of replacing old, worn wires with a new set of wires than it was the type of wire used. At any rate, I was fairly happy at this point.
Now, less than two years later, my car is in the shop for repair. It is cutting out very badly and the check engine light has come on. After a full day of diagnostics the repair facility has informed me that everything is pointing to my coil packs, and that they need replacing. I agree with their assessment, but ask them to wait a day before ordering the parts. I told them that I wanted to do a little research on coil packs to find the best possible replacement for the defective ones.
In the process of my research I learned a great deal about ignition systems, coils, plugs and plug wires. One bit of information from this research that stood out in my mind was a cautionary note about capacitive discharge type plug wires, specifically their tendency to go bad due to dielectric breakdown of the insulation. With this in mind I gave the repair facility a call and asked if the plug wires had been changed out during their diagnostics. They replied that they had not been changed out due to the wires being so new (less than two years) and "High Performance" wires. So I asked them if they would go ahead and change them out with a different set of wires (my original stock wires, which I had saved).
The call I received back from the repair facility was both good news, and really upsetting. The good news was that my car ran great with my old, stock plug wires. When the Nology HotWires were reinstalled, the problem returned. The upsetting part was that it took $216 of diagnostic time to find out that my $130, fairly new, "High Performance" plug wires had gone bad!! I had expected that plug wires in this price range, and of the "High Performance" category would last longer than they did!! Needless to say, I have now replaced my plug wires with a new set of non-capacitive discharge plug wires (Magnecor KV85's).
All of this information I have sent to Nology, and as of this time I have not received a reply to my complaints.
From all of this I have learned a couple things, First off, if it is a simple item to change, such as spark plug or wires, change them yourself first before taking your car in for diagnostics, even if the parts are fairly new. This could save you lots of money, in my case $216. Second, do your research. If I had replaced the coil packs it would have cost over $350 and would not have fixed the problem, leading to even more diagnostic time and $$$. Lastly, be very weary of capacitive discharge plug wires! In my case they proved to be VERY expensive!!
UPDATE: 2/23/2002
After almost 3 years I have been contacted by Nology. This was not in response to my original attempts to contact them, but rather in response to this web page (it appears that this page is at the top of most search engines if a search is done on "Nology Hotwire" . They have asked what they can do to get me to remove this page. Click Here for a look at the on going correspondences.
UPDATE: 9/15/2002
Well, if you have read the e-mails in the above update you might be wondering what happend, why has the correspondence with Nology stopped. The answer is simple, my web page is still here and I am still not inclined to remove it. I have received a fair amount of e-mails in support of this page, thanking me for the warning and encouraging me to keep this page on-line. Click Here to read some of the e-mails."
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Dynarider
| | Posted on Sunday, November 30, 2003 - 01:36 am: |
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And from the Audi group.
"Plug Wires
The OEM wires can be expensive to buy from the dealer, but there aren't many options since the connectors on the 20 valve engine are unusual. The original Bosch wires can be found in the aftermarket if you look hard enough. Rapid Parts (914-352-1138) sells Blue Ignitors that will fit this engine, and Magnecor makes compatible sets as well. Magnecor will give you a slight discount (~$10) if you mention that you heard about them through the internet Audi lists.
Stay away from Nology wires or any other company that tells you their wires will increase performance. The only performance increase that you will notice by replacing plug wires is if your old wires have a problem. What you should look for in a wire is quality construction and durability. Good sheilding prevents electrical interference, which is especially important in the 20 valve engine because it has EFI."
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Dynarider
| | Posted on Sunday, November 30, 2003 - 01:41 am: |
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For the most part the only folks promoting these Nology wires are in 2 camps.
#1. they sell the damn things
or
#2. They are replacing old worn out plugs & wires & attributing the gains to the nologys.
If you value your fuel injected XB stay away from these wires. The warnings are out there, just read them. |
Dasxb9s
| | Posted on Sunday, November 30, 2003 - 01:45 am: |
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We had some troubles with some radio installs (100 watt police type radios) in some Ford SUVs. When ever the mic was keyed... the rear windshield wiper would start operating. Ford put out a service bulletin of where the transmitter should not be installed.... (to distance the RF path and the electromagnetic fields) and produced a shield for the rear wiper mechanism. Radio frequency and electromagnetic fields can do bazaar things to electronics. ...as seen by this problem... and the one the guy with the Neon can attest.
If the original design is changed to "improve it... make it better" one might be altering some of the engineering and accomplish much the opposite... My thought... if it ain't broke... don't fix it. Often there is some tweeking that will improve the original design... but one has to realize it might not make a real difference or it might be detrimental.
But... it coulda worked!!!  |
M1combat
| | Posted on Sunday, November 30, 2003 - 01:54 am: |
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Thanks Dyna... Now how about those torque master plugs?? |
Dynarider
| | Posted on Sunday, November 30, 2003 - 01:57 am: |
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The youngsters wont remember this but in the mid 70's the hot setup was the accel super coil & the 7 or 8mm solid core plug wires. We all had em on our cars. And everytime you would rev the motor up all you would get from your pioneer supertuner with graphic equalizer was a bunch of static.
Now just imagine throwing that crap on a fuel injected vehicle & you can see the kind of electrical problems it would cause.
These bikes are not Pro-stock drag racers where the owner is looking to get that last 1/10th hp out of it. The stock wires work great...why screw it up? |
Dynarider
| | Posted on Sunday, November 30, 2003 - 01:59 am: |
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Now how about those torque master plugs??
More snake oil.
Same deal with splitfires.
Get some nice normal platinum plugs & be done with it.
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Dynarider
| | Posted on Sunday, November 30, 2003 - 02:01 am: |
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Oh yea, dont get me going on the plug indexing deal either.
For someone who is looking for every ounce of power..ie Aaron on his landspeed adventures..it may be worth it. But for 99.9% of us it wont make any damn difference. |
Bigdaddy
| | Posted on Sunday, November 30, 2003 - 07:48 am: |
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Hey Dyna, I'm staying out of the argument, but do agree with your Snake Oil analogy.
I had the Accel Super Yellow setup on my 1970 Monte Carlo, a kicking Kraco 8 track, a power amplifier that read "POWER" in green when it was turned on (can't remember who made that?) and you couldn't hardly listen to it with the motor running That was from the static and not the Cherry Bombs. I also seem to remember that I could put off enough EMI that it would static up Dad's TV and CB when I was coming home. Good memories :-)
Greg |
Dave
| | Posted on Sunday, November 30, 2003 - 09:25 am: |
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Dyna...I remember those RFI effects on my Pioneer Supertuner, Jensen 6x9s, and under the dash cassette add on from Radio Shack when playing Kansas. So...I am not a youngster anymore? Oh shiet!
It seems the easy answer is simply to dyno the bike with the Nology, then again with new OEM. If it works, it'll be repeatable and not a one time thing.
Dasxb9s... Yeah I was electronic communications for 20 in the AF. I still can't fathom how ya claim electrons only move across the surface. Conduit, wire wrap, punch down, soldered terminal lugs, it's all good. (Yes I worked on paper punch and teletypes as well haha)
DAve |
Brion
| | Posted on Sunday, November 30, 2003 - 10:33 am: |
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Thanks,
To everyone for accepting my posts with such enthusiasim over the Thanksgiving holidays. You guys who responded with good information and source links I appreciate it and am following up on some of them. If any of my posts have helped anyone with any of there issues I am glad. However, I personally will return to my former state of membership at this site (invisible), since it takes too much time sorting through the bullshit and antagonism to reply to someone that has something of value to add. Please refer to the thread on starting over on heads, there is a warning on the wires that if you have an electronic controled engine that you may need to use resistor plugs, however I have not as of yet. Sorry I did not think to mention it because I did not experience any problems as of yet. If I do I will come back and post it.
Brion |
Glitch
| | Posted on Sunday, November 30, 2003 - 11:04 am: |
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Thank you Dyna!
This is exactly what I was hoping for. Not nessesarily debunking of the wires, but information. |
Dasxb9s
| | Posted on Sunday, November 30, 2003 - 11:18 am: |
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Dave...
When you are an instructor you get deeper theory than one normally would in the military training. I don't know about the Air Force... but the Army only taught what the student (soldier) needed to do his/her job... no more... the deep theory was not needed and was a waste for the tech who just needed enough to do the job correctly and a waste of time for the time in training it would require.
What usually brings the controversy into this is that when teaching electronics most often to help a student understand, electron flow is explained by using fluid flow through pipes... so this fosters and the concept that if water flows in pipes... through implication... therefore the wires are "pipes" and electrons flow in wires... plus terms like "when current flows through a conductor" are used it gives that impression... so... for the average Joe... the concept that electrons flow "through" wires gets the point across without going into deep theory. So when someone like me who has had some of the deep theory makes such a statement... the common response is "Bullsh*t... that is not what I was taught!" You are correct... you were probably not taught it... particularly in the military as it was/is un-neccessary theory to perform the job.
I was trained to repair microwave transmitters and if you think there is magic in electronics... look at "antenna cable" in microwave equipment gigahertz range... there is not the CB radio conventional core and shield wire... it is an empty pipe looking thing pressurized with nitrogen... called a wave guide. Radio Frequency is even more magical and fascinating that wire bound electronics! Think about it... you have a little box with a wire sticking up in the air... it is powered by a battery... and when it is turned on music comes out from a transmitter miles away!!! Do that in the middle ages... and you would have been burned at the stake... now that is FM (fu*king magic!)
I am a much older fart that you... and to tell my age... the radio equipment I trained on still had tubes. When I went to the COBET (Common Basic Electronics Training) school to teach... I was selected as part of the team to transition the school lesson plans from tube theory to transistor theory. That was WAY back in the early to mid 1970s.
If you really want to look into some deep theory... I recommend a book on Quantum Mechanics... it is titled The Elegant Universe by Brian Greene. Barnes & Noble usually has it... thumb through it sometime... it boggles the mind even though it is "written down" for us mere mortals with IQs of less than 180!!!
Ya know... I guess I was brainwashed in my training... I am probably wrong about all I learned! Damn the Army!!!!!
Like Brion... I will fade back... as once a person has their mind set... it is very difficult to get them to open it up to new concepts that destroy the old ones. |
Dasxb9s
| | Posted on Sunday, November 30, 2003 - 11:45 am: |
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P.S. the military is not my only training in electronics. I also hold a non-commercial FCC license... commonly referred to as a HAM or Amateur Radio License... the class of the license is Extra... which is the highest attainable... and I did it the old fashion way back when it was required you copy morse code at speed in addition to the deeper theory required in the written test.
nuff said! |
M1combat
| | Posted on Sunday, November 30, 2003 - 12:41 pm: |
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For what it's worth, my high-school chemistry/physics teacher told me that electrons flow along the outside of wires as well. He was an excellent teacher. |
Blake
| | Posted on Sunday, November 30, 2003 - 02:07 pm: |
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Das,
RF energy moves via surface currents on a conductor. Not sure where you got the idea that electricity in general travels via that same mode. Is that what you are saying? Or am I misunderstanding you?
It is a shame to see interesting contributors ceasing their contributions over spirited debate. I'd suggest a thicker skin may be in order. It's all good hear from what I can see. |
Steveshakeshaft
| | Posted on Sunday, November 30, 2003 - 02:30 pm: |
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As far as I can recall from years ago when I was interested in this sort of stuff the "surface effect" whereby electons prefer to travel at the outer suface of a conductor is real and can be measured in the lab. IIRC, the effect is only significant at high frequencies, like way above audible range, >20kHz. The reason I can remember this stuff is because it was the justification behind some designs of audio cable using many 00's of very fine conductors. The world of HiFi audio is just as full of purveyors of snake oil solutions as the bike world.
Regards
Steve
www.ukbeg.com
steve_s@ukbeg.com |
Dasxb9s
| | Posted on Sunday, November 30, 2003 - 02:46 pm: |
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Brion...
I actually owe you an apology... I cruise the BadWeb to learn what I can... and to be entertained. Having seen your postings on heads... then this posting... and the less than tactful way some responded to your postings, I kinda got on my soap box. Maybe I should mind my own business.
However...things are often more complex than they seem... and the only stupid question... is the one not asked... there is a difference between stupid and ignorant. Through wanting to learn... ignorance can be overcome... I am ignorant to much as it related to Buells... and I want to eliminate as much of that as possible, and I KNOW I will never be able to eliminate all of it! AND... I love to see others do the same... search knowledge... without feeling they should fade back... and not post.
Two people can be right, just to different levels of understanding... and two people can be wrong... and swear they are right... that is called freedom... we are free to have our opinions... and we should respect that others can have different opinions... and different understandings... and we be tolerant of such...
So... Brion... I apologize if I stuck my nose where I should have not!
Having talked about ignorance... I will say... stupidity is incurable!!! ...and there are very few truly stupid people... but there are some who may fail to take the opportunity to learn... even though they think they will appear stupid if they ask something... or might be afraid they will learn they were wrong... and face it... there are times when it is hard to admit one is wrong. Face it... it is a guy thing!!!
Me... I am usually the first one to say I am wrong when I discover so... as I see it as a good thing that I have learned my flaw in something... and now I know what I should have know... and if I fu*k-up... I will be the first one to proclaim I fu*ked up! I can never live long enough to stop learning... and if I ever think I am infallible or I know it all... that is the day I want someone to bash me in the head and put me out of my misery!
It is your money... if you want to put a turbo off of a Porsche on your bike... you can... even though it might not work well or may blow your engine... or mess with the geometry of the bike... you can. Live and learn!!!
Please do not be afraid to ask stuff... filter out what is not relevant... and grasp what knowledge you can glean from the broad knowledge the BadWeb has...
If I have hurt anyone's feelings... that was not my intention... but if I did... I am not going to lose any sleep over it... people including me are at times too sensitive...
Blake...
I think you are referring to my comment about gigahertz waveguides... RF in that case is different in the case if feed line... RF is energy... and from transmitter to antenna it moves through the feed line which is a conductor... now once it gets to the antenna it for lack of better terms it resonates into radio frequency, a sine wave of a particular length. (In HAM radio there is a class of transmitters referred to as 2 meter the "signal" from peak to peak is 2 meters high... so a full wave antenna would be over 6 foot tall... so coils are used... to "lengthen" the antenna... 1/4 or 1/2 wave antennas are used... etc... not a real problem until you go to lower frequencies and the full wave is 10 meters!! Not practical to have a 30+ foot antenna on a mini-van!!)... ... with antennas in RF energy... the real magic begins.
The power of a radio is one thing... the ability for an antenna to efficiently function is another. Radio and TV stations transmit in millions of watts ... a police radio is usually 100 watts... a walkie talkie is typically 5 watts... the little FMRS radios you can buy everywhere and operate without a license are about 1/2 watt. So... are you surprised that during the Apollo missions it took only 3 watts to communicate with the moon... 1/4 million miles?!!! That is where once the signal travels up the feed line from a transmitter... the theory changes... at the antenna. The antenna in RF applications is where the voodoo magic is... with the correct antenna... a 3 watt signal can communicate to the moon... we can get into DB gain in antennas... and that is mind boggling... how a gain antenna can effectively radiate more power than it being put into the antenna. MAGIC!!!
Why is microwave RF so dangerous...??? Because a full wave is really high frequencies are small, measured at times in centimeters and in gigahertz much smaller!... and many parts of the human body are the same size of the full wave... and they resonate... and that is bad... A microwave oven is a shielded transmitter basically... and the food is cooked by RF... without the need for a wire to touch the food... This is the magic of RF... these subjects are very complex... and totally captivating to me.
did I misunderstand your question... Some of this stuff is almost too complex and lengthy to communicate in a posting. |
Hootowl
| | Posted on Monday, December 01, 2003 - 12:39 am: |
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About the electron flow thing...
Current flows along the surface of the conductor. This is called the "skin" effect, and it only really applies at high frequencies. The higher the frequency, the more pronounced the effect. The RF and radio posts above apply. The skin effect does not apply to DC current. Also, the propagation of RF energy along a waveguide does not really apply to normal conductance does it? Maybe, except that the impedance of the "conductor" changes every 1/4 wavelength. You don't get that with wire. Also, the dimensions of the guide determine the frequency and power that it will transmit. (You have to have a security clearance just to look at a military aircraft radar, as you can determine their operating frequency by the waveguides) Not like wires at all really.
So anyway, the skin effect is real, but doesn't apply to DC current. Is the current in a spark plug wire DC or AC? I'm betting DC. Pulsed DC, but still DC. Does the skin effect apply? I have no idea. There is no reversal of polarity, so probably not. Anybody know? |
Hootowl
| | Posted on Monday, December 01, 2003 - 12:44 am: |
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Dasxb9s,
You're right about antennas. RF is FM.
Fucking Magic.
Jeff |
Reepicheep
| | Posted on Monday, December 01, 2003 - 08:35 am: |
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Hoot... thats a good question, is a spark plug a DC or AC thing...
I would be inclined to call it AC, its a monstrous transient... definately approaches the RF range, just slap an unfiltered AM or FM radio next to it.
Pulsed DC is... well... AC. Lets see, at redline you are firing roughly 3.5kHz (I think), which is still well in the audio range, but the duration of that spark has to be much smaller then that. It would have to hit all at once within a small part of that time window when the piston in in the right place. I would guess that window is pretty tight, easily 10% or less of the overall "cycle time" of the engine. That bumps you up to 35kHz right there, which is creeping into RF dynamics.
You would definately have to model it as AC to get any kind of reasonably consistent model... though you are likely NOWHERE NEAR the microwave waveguide voodoo stuff being discussed above.
edited by reepicheep on December 01, 2003 |
Hootowl
| | Posted on Monday, December 01, 2003 - 12:07 pm: |
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I'm still calling it DC. There are no reordering of the magnetic domains as the polarity does not change. Not to say it doesn't have AC properties though, I'm certain it does. For example, a DC pulse will pass through a cap, just like AC. There is an AC component to the waveform.
What was the question again?
Oh, and it may be 1/2 wavelength that the impedance changes...been too long. |
Fullpower
| | Posted on Monday, December 01, 2003 - 01:49 pm: |
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reepi: the term RPM refers to revolutions per MINUTE. so 6000 rpm is only 100 revolutions per second. 4 stroke, single fire technology requires only one spark per alternate revolution. so each plug wire carries a DC pulse. approx. 9 Hz at idle, 50 Hz at 6000 rpm. that is per each cylinder. dean |
Fullpower
| | Posted on Monday, December 01, 2003 - 01:53 pm: |
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oh yeah, this pulse results from a single collapse of magnetic field, so will not involve a reversing current flow. a DC pulse. also much too slow frequency to worry about skin effect. there are no signals in the vehicle electrical system that change fast enough to exhibit any skin effect. regards, dean |
Reepicheep
| | Posted on Monday, December 01, 2003 - 04:15 pm: |
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Thanks fullpower... missed that one. I was busy trying to remember if the stock ignition was dual fire or single fire. Kinda missed the forest for the trees so to speak!
Still, if you wanted to model a spark plug firing with any degree of accuracy, I think it would have to be a transient analysis. Especially since it involves a coil. If it were a DC analysis and a coil, well, it would just be basically low resistance short.
Agreed though, we are several decimal places away from where skin effects would come into play. |
Blake
| | Posted on Monday, December 01, 2003 - 04:16 pm: |
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Das,
I have a fairly comprehensive understanding of RF energy and its propagation through either cable, waveguide, and free space. My comment was questioning your claim that electricity travels on the surface of a conductor. That is true for RF frequencies, but I don't think it is true for electricity in general.
A microwave works by imparting RF energy to the electrically conductive molecules comprising the food. I don't believe it is dependent upon common physicalities/geometries wrt the wavelength of the RF energy employed.
The wavelength of RF energy at 30 GHz (Ka-band transmit frequency) is 1 cm.
My brain has been polluted with all kinds of this type of information in the past 12 years of working in the satcom industry. |
Fullpower
| | Posted on Monday, December 01, 2003 - 05:02 pm: |
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blake what is the resonant frequency of your brain cavity? a mind is a terrible thing to baste.......................dean |
Dasxb9s
| | Posted on Monday, December 01, 2003 - 08:41 pm: |
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Blake...
Most of my experience has be RF related... and really VERY little with DC. There may be in fact a difference in how the "skin effect" applies related to frequency range... I had the ancient understanding that it at the least applied for all AC current flow... due to the properties of AC. I still think that is true... but as many have asked in some way or the other... I can't find any hard data quickly on the web to settle this debate. I am sure that it applies to AC in general... and if you think about it... RF is a wave... say a perfect sine wave for the sake of argument... and house current is also... just at 60 herts... and not in the KHz, MHz, GHZ range. ..and the base frequency is just a carrier for some type of modulation... or data string or whatever the correct term would be for the digital transmissions. It is all AC once it is no longer DC... and even household current can be a carrier... as in these things they sell to plug into household outlets to use the house wiring as a carrier for telephone outlets... in place of running telephone conductor. So thinking of it this way... any ac frequency can be a carrier... and very low frequencies have been... and still may be used for submarine communication... as it penetrates well... and we know heavy snow can block gigahertz range frequencies for our satellite TV receivers. Hell... they can modulate laser beams... so the definition of RF may now extend up to the light frequencies... so defining where RF... as in the original concept of Radio Frequency... goes from/to... I don't see any difference in how the carrier frequency would be different than say a 60 Hertz frequency in house current... as it relates to the 'skin effect'.
To make a long posting short... I don't know if there is a limit of the "skin effect" of RF... but thinking it out... it does not seem logical that there would be.
Much of my knowledge base is from military time in the early mid 70s... and several years passed before I got back into this via HAM radio. My base is UHF, VHF, and the low end of microwave. I know so much!!! I know so little!!!!
This thread has morphed into a very interesting and thought provoking exchange!!! |
Paulinoz
| | Posted on Monday, December 01, 2003 - 09:30 pm: |
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"My comment was questioning your claim that electricity travels on the surface of a conductor. That is true for RF frequencies, but I don't think it is true for electricity in general."
If the distribution of DC is uniform through the cross section of the conductor and RF is only present in the surface (skin). Then for any frequency other than DC there will be a higher percentage of electron flow in the surface of the conductor than at it's core. As to if you can measure the difference at low frequency is another ball game in it's self.
Magnetic fields induced into a magnetic substrate can be shown to exibit skin effect at freq as low as 50 hz. This effect is used to enable surface and near surface deffects to be detected using hand held Magnaflux type yokes in cranks for example. What do you know I got back to engines. |
Dasxb9s
| | Posted on Monday, December 01, 2003 - 10:33 pm: |
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Paulinoz...
OUTSTANDING!!!!!
This just proves there is a wealth of information on the BadWeb... from all parts of the world... and when it comes down to it... our primary focus is enjoying our Buells... in addition to other endeavors we also hold as important... but in the end... BUELL RULES!!!
I have enjoyed the exchange on the subject... and I am impressed with the knowledge pool we have...
Now if I can just learn more about wrenching Buells... and I know with time... I will! |
Ezblast
| | Posted on Monday, December 01, 2003 - 11:16 pm: |
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Yea - they do make you run a bit leaner so I've been told by people who make a simular product - Direct Hits - on almost all their dyno tests they sugested to jet higher and retard timing 4 to 8 degrees - you had to drown all the connection points in di - electric grease - suposedly their capacitor was also designed to absorb RF as well - so their site says - lol - found them to be too hard a set up to maintain - always a glitch down the road - lol
GT - JBOTDS! EZ |
Glitch
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 02, 2003 - 08:11 am: |
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always a glitch down the road
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Blake
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 02, 2003 - 07:55 pm: |
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Yes magnetic fields. Is that where they grow magnets?  I kill me.  |
Paulinoz
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 02, 2003 - 10:44 pm: |
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Blake you are such a Gauss |
Blake
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 03, 2003 - 09:23 pm: |
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