| Author |
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Golin
| | Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2003 - 10:22 am: | 
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I guess you did get in the Dyno room. You shoulda come to the dinner ride last night. The two Buellers woulda been the only two bikes because we're hardcore. |
Buckinfubba
| | Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2003 - 12:45 pm: |
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squiz
if it was that easy everyone would do it. Nope your dimensions are off by a good lot. Yes length matters but what looks like the length is not the length....sorry to be so vague.
and surely 2 into 2 will not work as well.
of course as always it depends on the application.
as to how it works for you.
do it and show us how it works. I know you said something about wanting top end stuff your Idea might work.
but as this shows just having top end power and losing it down low doesn't necessarily mean you are going faster.
but try it you may be onto something.
greg
I almost drove down there but then I got stuck in here on my day off and might have sold a bike I'll know next monday.
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Squiz13
| | Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2003 - 01:20 pm: |
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Brian,
Ive emailed you a personal message  |
Blake
| | Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2003 - 01:21 pm: |
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Brian,
I'm just thinking that the valve, tuned to open/close at the oprimum speeds could give a huge boost to the Drummer's midrange. Sounds like the Reeper has already worked it out. You two ought to definitely get together on this. You could call the new active valved version for the XB12's the "BadWeB Thundercan" in honor of the inspiration provided here.  |
Roc
| | Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2003 - 02:05 pm: |
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Thank you Brian. The Drummer is also lighter too, right? |
Hootowl
| | Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2003 - 02:22 pm: |
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Reep,
Thanks for the vote of confidence. Question though, did Buell build a completely different ECM for racing, or did they take a stock ECM and remap the fuel curve? Probably the latter. If that is the case, the valve output may well be present on the race ECM, it's just that the race can doesn't use it. Anybody know for sure? |
Buckinfubba
| | Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2003 - 03:34 pm: |
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the folks up at buell told me the race ecm does not actuate the valve . The reason I ask was to see how that ecm worked with the stock pipe. I figured the stock pipe worked so well and I don't give a hoot about loud I figured the ecm and filter and stock pipe could be cool.
somebody should try it just to see. aaahhh invention is cool.
now the thing about the valve.look at the drawing of the twelve pipe and how that valve works. It is almost like a straight pipe than transit with adjustable baffels in it. kinda sorta.
I will say this again. the reason buell did this was to make a restrictive (government issue) work the way a performance pipe would work and still keep the noise down.
what it really does is adjust the voulme of exhaust gases that it is holding and moving.
using the valve in the drummer would do no good.
now as I always say if somebody wants to pursue have at it. That would be very cool to see.
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Stot
| | Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2003 - 03:49 pm: |
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Even if you did get the actuator working with the Race ECM the fuel curve would be way out with the valve closed, I think that you would have to use the standard ECM and maybe tweak the O2 sensor to go slightly richer than normal to match an Actuated Drummer.
Cya
Stot |
Blake
| | Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2003 - 07:20 pm: |
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Brian,
There are two key aspects to optimum exhaust tract design, restrictiveness and geometric interaction with pressure waves.
The restrictiveness or flowability is just like how we characterize flow through the valved ports of a cylinder head. The less restrictive the easier and more efficiently gasses can flow. This is where I think your drummer excels, it provides much less restriction to flow.
The other critical design attribute of a performance exhaust is its ability to put a negative pressure pulse at the exhaust port during the intake/exhaust overlap event thus helping to pull/scavenge more fresh intake charge into the combustion chamber. I believe the Drummer also excels here, but only at low and high engine speeds, not in the midrange.
The Buell interactive exhaust valve creates two different length exhaust tracts, while each may be what we would consider "restrictive", one length provides for good scavenging at low and high speeds, the other at mid-range speeds.
I see the benefit of the drummer is that overall it is less restrictive. The benefit of the interactive valve is that it does a good job of optimizing the arrival of the negative pressure pulse during the intake/exhaust overlap event across the entire rpm range. They are two different aspects to performance exhaust design.
Thus I am fairly certain that optimally incorporating the valve into a Drummer-like free flowing muffler will yieled impressive gains in the mid range without sacrificing the low and high end performance already achieved. Think of it like taking the best of both the D&D and the Drummer and combining them into a single muffler.
From 2000-4150 rpm you get the performance of the Drummer; from 4150-5500 rpm you get the performance of the D&D, and from 5500 to redline you get the performance of the Drummer again.
It can work, trust me. How to configure it and actually do it? That I'll leave to you. |
Opto
| | Posted on Friday, November 21, 2003 - 02:04 am: |
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Could Blake's theory be tested by partially blocking the Drummer's outlet tube and seeing if the midrange only improves on the dyno?
As Brian said, the Drummer on the 12 doesn't need a valve, it's a good flat response already.
If enough 12 owners buy new pipe/ecm's, then there will be a surplus of slightly used 12 valves and stock 12 ecm's that might work well on the 9's.
OK, now back to reality... 
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Buckinfubba
| | Posted on Friday, November 21, 2003 - 08:46 am: |
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Blake
I know of what you are speaking and you are right. But With how the drummer is configured I and especially kevin (the brains behind this pipe) don't belive it would make a difference. Only because of how the pipe is configured in its state right now.
If someone had a 12 and a 12pipe to test on maybe we could test it and see if it would make a difference. But like I have said on the 12 the pipe is much smoother than on the 9. I have to belive that has to do with stroke and ecm combination. Plus we could never use it for a 9 since they don't have the electronics to work a valve.
as opto said about possibly covering up the hole at the end to see if it would make a difference. well ask gene church how it sounds to be down on the ground restricting the hole a 1/4 a 1/3 and a 1/2 at the precise time needed to see if will work. We did that alot while testing different configuration of the drummer to get the best we could on a 9.
now that we have seen the drummer on a 12 we know we have done good. If you look at those dyno's the tourque curve actually is on a slight constant increase all the way thru the power band without any dips and valleys. once again very smooth power all the way across.
now we are talking the same pipe on different bikes with different stroke and ignition and throttle body and fuel curve. I really do belive that is where the smoothness comes from in conjuction with the pipe.
the 9's don't have that in my thinking because of the different throttle body, ign. curve, stroke and fuel delivery that is mapped into the ecm's. I maybe wrong on this but it is my opinon.
If you look at the torque curve on other short stroke bikes you'll see this also I believe.
I am not saying that it is not worth a test. But without somebody offering up a pipe to mutate and a bike to test on it will probably not happen. Hell anything is worth a test , atleast I think so.
opto the 12 ecm will never work on the 9's because of the stroke difference and ign.curve being different. It would fire in the wrong spots on a 9. atleast I am pretty sure.
wheres arron when we need him.
Brian
Tilley hd/buell
buckinfubba@hotmail.com |
Blake
| | Posted on Friday, November 21, 2003 - 11:04 am: |
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Do they use the same cams? |
Blake
| | Posted on Friday, November 21, 2003 - 11:05 am: |
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Well, DUH, the rev limits for one are not compatible. |
Blake
| | Posted on Friday, November 21, 2003 - 11:05 am: |
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Sometimes I scare myself. |
Buckinfubba
| | Posted on Friday, November 21, 2003 - 11:15 am: |
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Blake your scaring the hell out of me...how close is kilgore to waco or that tower in Austin.....
and yes you know they are the same cams |
Oconnor
| | Posted on Friday, November 21, 2003 - 08:48 pm: |
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So lets see... $450 for a new pipe shipped to my door. Or $350 plus probably another 35 bucks to ship mine to you. Thats $385 to $400 if you factor in box and packing etc etc (i am trying to sell myself here) plus my bike will be down for a week.
So I would really only be paying about 50 bucks more by buying a new one and my bike wouldn't be down at all...
Whens payday??? Brian get ready for my order.. It will be coming soon!!!!
Saw and heard Kaese's XB with the drummer. Wow did it sound good. He says it is like night and day when he put it on..
Can't wait |
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