| Author | Message | ||
     Buckinfubba |
I truely don't get this stuff. but I will say anything that starts a debate is a good thing. It means things have created a stir and brought the emotions up. If I am confused Noface about your post I already stand corrected. The drummer still has the jack points also. and as far as that elusive 2500 to 3k. I think it is just the fact that if you shell out money you want the best all around pipe thru the power band. I could be wrong tho. but it does matter at times other than just crusing around town. I can't figure out why everybody is so defensive about this. I will say this tho. A big company name doesn't mean a whole lot in the big scheme of things. And all this started because one person said something bad about the D&D. he based in on the fact that he has rode both pipes and likes one over the other. buellish actually called the lil ol drummer (in a round about fashion ...not good. last time I checked he has never rode a bike with the drummer and can't base his opion on anything. so in the end none of it matters. buy what you like and what you want. but the pricce difference is a big deal to most. ok enuff already we all have the best pipes on the best bikes in the world!!!!! are we a lucky bunch of fools | ||
| Glitch |
ok enuff already It's ok, we're just tired of fighting over synthetic vs. dino!  | ||
| Mitchelob |
...recycling your stock can into a Drummer is environmentally friendly... | ||
| Buckinfubba |
synthetic vs dino...  thats a good one glitch... mitch...I hadn't even thought of that...thats a good one too | ||
| Austinrider |
Mobil 1 synthetic V-Twin Formula in the swing arm. Mobil 1 Synthetic 75W90 Gear oil in the tranny D&D on the bottom - love it. (Figured I would just stir the hornest nest a bit) Ride what you like, spend what you are comfortable with, and keep your hands off my Buell | ||
| Noface |
For all intents and purpose, this thread should have ended with the only legitimate post by our graciuos moderator when he pointed out Ted's lack of form stating the D&D is only good for "making noise". The rest of this stuff is just smoke. Which is what get's my goat. Myself being the owner of a D&D and feeling some sorta "penis envy" has nothing to do with it, cause I don't. The only place a Drummer beats a D&D is below 3500 or 3000 rpm's. And the selling price. Now, to do some back patting. Brian, you and Kevin have done a most excellent job designing an exhaust worthy to hang on the bottom of our bikes, at a most attractive price. GOOD JOB! Standing behind someone belittling the rest of us noise makers....? I dunno. He bought your product, so I suppose you should. I still stand behind my comment of riding below 3-3500rpm. I do use synthetic oils too. Maybe that's why I'm so grouchy?  | ||
| Leeaw |
As long as everyone agrees that they all beat the race pipe... | ||
| Glitch |
For all intents and purpose, this thread should have ended with the only legitimate post by our graciuos moderator when he pointed out Ted's lack of form stating the D&D is only good for "making noise". Why? This isn't a bad conversation... Plus I wanna see the comparo Skully's coming up with. | ||
| Buckinfubba |
Jody well you opened up a can of worms that I let lay ... first off I wasn't standing behind anybody for buying our pipe . I was standing behind someones personal opinon, that they based on there own experience with both pipes and like you he can express that. as you have done by saying that the D&D beats the drummer everywhere except below 3500 or 3000. well I went diggin for dynos and took a look myself. Your opinon if fine by me, but your facts are wrong. I have been searching for the d7d dynos and took a look. the drummer beats the D&D all the way to 4k whichs where they become even. from 4k to 5200 the D&D beats the drummer and from there on the drummer beats the d&d,the drummer does have a couple of hp on the top end also. now what I saw were 5th gear runs on the D&D, which when I did a 5th gear run on the drummer the hp came in at 82hp which is maybe 3 or 4 hp better than the d&D . we did all fourth gear runs for the charts you see of the drummer. so just stateing facts here is all I am doing. our tourque curve is smoother and longer which allways give better performance. and at hundreds of dollars less in cost. I say the drummer beats the d7d all the way around. I am not trying to start a fight but I am defending what we made with facts. Be happy with your pipe by all means. but if your going to make claims , have your facts correct. I am not saying that the d7d is only good for noise, i never did and I never would. Power to d&d for making a pipe. I loved the d7d on the tuber buells that is the one I sold to everybody but it was the best all around pipe for those bikes. price and performance. they'd look at the pipe , the cost, and the results and they usually agreed. not allways but usually. now I show them all the pipes on the market, the cost, and the results. they pick what they feel is best, alot of the times it is the drummer. sometimes it is not. I only defended the drummer for 2 reasons. you stated wrong facts and it is a very worthy pipe in more than just my eyes. Just like the d&d is a very worhty pipe in the eyes of you and those who like it. Its all good. just get the facts straight. | ||
| Skully |
Ok guys, I know you all went without sleep last night waiting for this chart...  Please remember this chart is a composite made from three different bikes on three different dynos- but it does show trends.  If you have any questions, feel free to ask here or by using my email. Keith edited by skully on November 04, 2003 | ||
| Glitch |
I don't wanna be a pain or anything, but what about torque? | ||
| Kcfirebolt |
Keith, I am facinated by the chart and the discussion. Thank you for taking the time to put it together. May I request an additional plot line from a stock XB for comparison? I understand that all comparisons are circumspect because they have come from different dynos, but I am curious to see how the gains provided by each of the three pipes relate to the results of a stock pipe. Thank you for considering the idea. | ||
| Buellish2 |
DINO DINO DINO!!!!!! SYTH BAD DINO GOOD | ||
| Buellish2 |
i PROBABLY WOULD HAVE LOOKED INTO THE DRUM BUT THIS IS THE FIRST IVE HEARD OF IT! BESIDES IVE ALREADY OVER PAID FOR MY D AND LETS FACE IT IM NOT GOUING TO BE ABLE TO TELL THE DIFF BETWEEN 3&5 PONIES!?!?! pc in chitown later | ||
| Buckinfubba |
not to be a problem but I thought we'd show the whole picture. Last time I checked that would be horse power and torque. now when I posted earlier I was reading off the chart you posted back on tues may 20th in the "xb exhaust/muffler" thread and that dyno don't look quite as happy as this transposing does. Keith I'll fax ya a chart and lets post up real charts on these things and all that. Plus is that a 5th gear run or a 4th. because that makes a lil difference. also was that with an open airbox because our wasn't with that and as we know that does make a difference. Buellish do you work at d&d or own stock in it. you seem quite reved up about this. but lets see the torque curves on there please if we could. and none of this works really unless they are all on the same dyno. I'd love to see them all on the same dyno and give a true blue comparison. It may not change anything but it would make it right. one buke one dyno and real charts with both torque and horsepower!! you need both to know the whole story. I do believe. | ||
| Buckinfubba |
so I did some more reading on these numbers and you are showing the ones with no airbox right? well thats not very a realistic and it does give a big boost. and we know its couple pounds and a couple a horse power. actually with your dyno you showed its about 4 hp . So lets get equal atleast . and this is a quote from aaron on this Damn near every bike I've ever tested would pull more power with no air cleaner, 2-3hp is not unusual. This bike is showing what, 4hp between the two pulls that are otherwise the same configuration? So it's a little more than usual. Nothing dramatic though. so I guess this was all for naught because we are not showing these things on a equal playing field. the only reason I am asking for this is , because if were gonna do this lets do it right and correct. that way we can decide on the whole picture, price and performance. other wise as noface said ....this is all smoke | ||
| Josh_ |
>because if were gonna do this lets do it right and correct. Then same bike, same operator, same dyno, same day. repeat. drawing a chart based on different bikes/days/etc is less than meaningless unless you are comparing slope/shape and ignoring numbers. | ||
| Noface |
Yea Brian you're right. It does have 4 or 5 more to 4k, at least looking at the pic posted on Oct 15th. I'm done with this pissing contest. So lets all get back to patting each other on the back and dissing the rest of us that overpaid for our name brand POS mufflers. Cheers, Jody | ||
| Skully |
Brain, Trust me, I find this quite interesting and in no way will get pissed about the results. If I were to purchase a new muffler today, I would definitely consider the Drummer. The chart I posted above was made taking readings directly off mine and your dyno plots. I did not intentionally bias any of the numbers. I can certainly add in my stock run as a comparison and then do the same with the torque curves. I think I will leave the torque and hp curves in separate charts for easier reading. Now, Blake has the dynamometer software and with some prodding, would probably make a chart for us using the data files directly from the dynos for each of our bikes. I'll try to get my charts updated tomorrow at lunch; work has been especially hectic and it is cramping my BadWeB time! Keith | ||
| Oconnor |
Hey I am more than happy to donate my bike, in its stock set up, for a dyno marathon at Valllejo HD in california. If someone wants to loan me a d&d, a force, and a drummer for a day. (but I don't think I would want to give the drummer back.) Not that I am biased. I like the stock look of it, oh wait that would be biased huh. But not biased on the power side... Any takers? No ? Well it was worth a shot. | ||
| Viros |
I would also show up for a dyno shoot out in Vallejo with my 9R, If any makers of either of these 3 exhaust is willing to donate. (cant blame me for trying either) | ||
| Buckinfubba |
I don't know but I think the tone in my typing is being misunderstood. I am all for this comparo because it is good for everybody that owns an xb. It gives everybody the tools to make the choice they want to make. If it sounds like I am defending the drummer, well of course I am, it mine and kevins product. Who here wouldn't defend their own. I am not and have not ever said the force or d&d were not pipes worthy of purchase by anybody. To me all 3 pipes are very different animals in all ways. All pipes do different things for different folks. They strike an emotional cord because of the seat of the pants feel and the sound and the look, they touch our senses. Thank god they don't bore us. my beef is, and allways will be, what we get asked to pay for these things. when we got the drummer done we had no idea how to price it. we had to take the time involved, the parts cost used and the labor time into play. We looked at the price of everything else out there, and as a customer as much as a provider we came to the conclusion, in our minds that some things were over priced. I couldn't figure out how the price of the pipes for the tubers compared to the xbs could be so different in the mark up. Why were they now, by the same makers, so much more money than they were. Yeah I know everything goes up in time but not that much. I thought, did they put in that much more research and time in it or was it labor cost or what. I just didn't know ! So my thoughts came back to the same thing, everybody that might purchase this pipe is just like me. We all work for a living and our hard earned dollar and we love the daylights out of our bikes but as always, we want a lil more. as I said I think some things are over priced , we had what we thought was a good all around pipe and could ask more for it but in our heads that was just pure greed. so to end this, finally, we wanted a pipe that folks could afford and knowing full well that to make it work they would also have to have the ecm and filter, so we priced it in our heads as a package. quality product fair price. That is why I defend the drummer, I feel in all facets we as consumers are ask to pay too much for most thing we purchase. Maybe I am wrong maybe I am not. so lets just all try and be happy with what we want and what we get. | ||
| Evil_twin |
I really did not expect this much of a "fired up" debate. I really do appreciate all of the input that you are all giving for my not so simple question, it so seems. I am primarily looking to smooth my powerband. I would like it a little louder. I want to be noticed when I am on the road. "Loud pipes save...", you know the deal. But, I am not looking for "rude" loud. The FORCE/Nallins, from what clips I have heard, sounds rude. The D&D clips that I have heard are taken from outside an enclosed dyno. On just those references, it is towards the D&D. But, sound is not the most important thing. HP is not the most important thing. I am just looking for smoothness and reliability. I have owned *cough*JAP*cough* bikes and had D&D products. I know that they are built good. But, Bubba almost always brings an interesting point to every string I have ever read. I'm not saying that I am only listening to Bubba, But I have been reading these boards for the last year or so, and used some of the info on BWB to make my decision in buying my Buell. It is going to be MY decision on how much I want to spend and what kind of performance I want to purchase. That is why I so appreciate all of the work everyone is doing to help me make an informed and educated decision. Thank you all. | ||
| Skully |
Here is the chart posted above with my stock (baseline) run added to it at Kcfirebolt's request.  I'll try to get a composite torque chart put together today if time permits. Keith | ||
| Glitch |
Thanks Keith.  | ||
| Skully |
Here is the long awaited composite torque curves. Again, it is from three different bikes on three different dynamometers. Again, look for trends.  Later, Keith | ||
| Roc |
Smokes - the Force makes no power below 3,500 RPM! I noticed this on the HP graph, but I was waiting for the torque chart to confirm it.  | ||
| Dynarider |
Im making popcorn & going sit back & watch the show. | ||
| M1combat |
Yeah, you have to roll down a hill to get enough speed to use the force. Or have your pit crew push you... It's really inconvenient when you upshift too soon... | ||
| Skully |
I just realized that I neglected to rename the "Y" axis on my graph. "SAE HP" should be "Torque" Keith |
