| Author | Message | ||
     Doerman |
If I were you Zac, I'd put Loretta back together again and take her to the shop with the picture in hand. | ||
| Zac4mac |
That may be what happens Asbjorn. I'm in uncharted territory as far as my experience goes. All I can do now is wait to hear from C/S. Z | ||
| Ducxl |
That cam is toast.As bad as it is though,doesn't it make you happy to have discovered this issue? I mean,wouldn't a service tech be just the one to sweep an issue like this "under the rug"? My 996 Ducati developed a similar issue with the rocker arm chrome plating flaked off and posed a danger of the cam issue pictured. Your cams are cheap.My new set i installed cost $1700 all four. Does anyone make a "Race" cam for the 1125r yet? I hope the manufacturer accepts the cam as defective.Great job,Zack.Good luck,and do not ride it like that. | ||
| Fresnobuell |
I hope the manufacturer accepts the cam as defective I really don't see how BMC can't cover this. The only thing that muddies the water is that Zac discovered it. But on the other hand if he had the dealership do the service, he might have never heard about it at all...depending on BMC's answer to Zac this could really crappy situation to be in... Is there something written (something other than common courtesy and sense) that forces the tech to make the owner aware of these "situations" that arise due to visual inspection? | ||
| Redbuelljunkie |
Generally speaking, dealer "techs" try and find anything/everthing wrong so they'll get paid to fix it. It doesn't matter to them whether it's the customer or warranty footing the bill- money is money. Zac4mac- sorry bro, I know it sucks to discover your baby is hurt, but it really is good to know you caught it at an "early stage". I wonder if this is an isolated incident? Best wishes on a quick and economical recovery. | ||
| Zac4mac |
I expect Buell to warranty this, cam and follower. I have total confidence in Max, he's been to school, early. Our other Buell Tech goes in March. I'm sure any tech worth working for a dealership would have voiced concern on finding this. Their job is to ensure the bike meets spec at the service interval. The valve covers are back on and I'm putting the engine back up. I'll probably put it back together and ride it 8 miles to the shop. Then let them do their warranty thing. Z | ||
| Krassh |
So basically except for that damaged cam all the valves were within spec? | ||
| Dentguy |
They said some pitting is OK Should be..No pitting is OK. I'm curious to hear what their definition of some is. | ||
| Fresnobuell |
Generally speaking, dealer "techs" try and find anything/everthing wrong so they'll get paid to fix it. It doesn't matter to them whether it's the customer or warranty footing the bill- money is money. Seems like that should be the case, however from experience (not only with Buell) it seems to be somewhat the opposite. Dunno why? Maybe they don't want to go thru the paperwork hassle when they have HD riders throwing money at in large amounts? | ||
| Diablo1 |
Should be..No pitting is OK. I'm curious to hear what their definition of some is. I'm with you Dentguy - no pitting is acceptable on a cam or follower. And there can be other causes for the pitting besides a "bad cam or follower". Lack of oil, wrong oil, or lubricant breakdown from temperature, excess spring pressure, improper break-in are all possibilities. Buell should be taking great interest in this to get to the bottom of the problem.} | ||
| Dtx |
Well this is a bit disheartening. Knowing Z-man, his bike is well maintained and not abused. I really hope this is just an anomaly. | ||
| Chevycummins |
Fresnobuell, I have found the same thing with some techs. Working at a dealer I learned over the years that some mechanics don't like change and will waste more time avoiding a job than it would take to just do it. This engine is not what they are use to working on and that will scare some of the mechanics. They could be doing a easy money making service rather than doing a engine tear down/inspection. The bike will be in there way and they will be waiting for parts and dealing with Buell. Also warranty times are usually much less than customer pay. The whole system works against a quality repair. I've seen it way too many times. Not sure if the dealer that Zack has the work done at is a flat rate shop. I feel that a good relationship with the mechanic is important and will help you in the end. If the mechanic knows and likes you they will usually take better care of your vehicle, and go the extra mile if needed. Some pitting is normal? No, not on cams and followers. Whoever told him this needs to take a basic engine rebuilding class! I would also think Buell would tell Zack to get the bike back together and to the dealer. Usually the manufacturer will request the parts back for testing or the complete engine back for inspection. Being a new engine they should be very interested in the failure. | ||
| Zac4mac |
Essentially they are looking at the 1125 much as they do the V-Rod engine. Functional similarities. Enough of this drama for now, I'm a little taxed today. I promised a list of necessary parts, numbers and prices(MSRP). Left the list at work last night. Syn3 ---------- 99824-03/00QT -------- 11.49 Air Filter ------- P0213.1AMA ------------ 20.03 Oil Filter ------- Q1064.1AM ------------- 15.65 Spark Plugs -----V0075.1AM - NGK CR9EKB -- 8.75 Optional: Shims - 18666-01K to 18686-01K (.025mm steps) - 2.64 ea. Breather filter ------ P0089.1AMA ------------- 1.01 Z | ||
| Smoke |
zack, that is not the type of pitting that would be ok in any ohc engine. it is also in the area that has the strongest pressure point. (on the lift part of the cam) tim | ||
| Zac4mac |
Right on the nose Michael. Experience shows... We aren't a flat-rate shop, I found out when I wanted to lump the recall and a RevB clutch cover in one stop. I'm sure BMC will agree this is severe pitting and unacceptable. Now I need to get it to ALL happen at once... Maybe she won't be ready by next week. C'est la vié. Glad I've got the Shovelhead, wish it was an X-1. I think I've outgrown Harleys. Z | ||
| Dalton_gang |
Wow Zac. Looks like you got your hands full. That picture of Loretta`s bump stick is really freaking me out. I hope they can get you the parts right away and get her back on the road. | ||
| Fresnobuell |
Also warranty times are usually much less than customer pay. I heard that with the 5th gear recall from my dealer. I suspect that Buell gives them a set time and pay for the repair and of course with the number of bike affected it will be the minimum. I also suspect that there is ALOT more money doing various HD-related work versus Buell recall/warranty work. | ||
| Krassh |
I actually got my dealer to swap out my road rashed clutch cover to the rev.b I purchase while they had it in for the 5th gear recall. Either they are a flat rate shop or they were doing me a favor. They also did it while I waited. | ||
| Jotrevza |
Hey Zac, Those extra "oiling galleys" on your cam look pretty bad by any definition! I can't believe they told you that's acceptable??? Just the color around the damage area is pretty telling! When I did my 600 mile break-in service, I reported on here that I saw a CONSIDERABLE amount of "pasty" ferrous metal on my drain plug, as well as metallic flakes of both brass and (other) makeup in the oil that came out of the filter housing. I was a little concerned with the amount of metal I saw, but, nobody on here commented to the contrary, so I pushed on. I'll say it again, this was (IMHO) a considerable amount even for a break-in oil change (on a production engine) based upon my experience. Though I'm certainly no expert on Rotax engines, I would have expected a lot less even at break-in. I'm just hoping (probably like several others here) after seeing what's happened with yours, that we're all not going to see much of the same thing going on due to poor oiling, and/or machining! That would TOTALLY SUCK!  Thanx for the great pics and the info., and good luck with "Loretta". Tracy | ||
| Usmoto |
Just wanted to give a big thank you to everyone who posted info about doing the work myself and the warranty non issue. I'll be doing the service myself. Thanks again. | ||
| Zac4mac |
C/S told me "some pitting is acceptable" but I have not heard back yet since I sent the photo. I think "acceptable" would be something so small it could be easily overlooked. Loretta's case is way beyond that. Not real concerned, I know BMC will make it good. This is staying very personal too. Same folks I've talked to before about "rideability issues" back in the Spring. Single Point Of Contact rocks. I'm bummed she's down, glad she's a Buell. I'm in the best hands. Z | ||
| Rocketray |
oh man, sorry to hear about your cam pitting Zac. Huge bummer. Started 3rd service on Monday, checked the clearances on Tuesday. My lobes look fine, no problems there at all. Spark plugs looked great also, but did replace them. The intake clearance on both front and rear are a little tight, but within specs (.006) and the exhaust on both front and rear are in the middle of spec (.011 and .012). Still in the process of putting it all back together. I've had 1 mishap so far (only disconnected 1 horn wire, the other stretched and broke rotating engine down). All in all, this is more involved than what I was expecting, and I'm not even done yet. Once all back together, will give a 'wrap up' type of a post. Rocket Ray Best of luck to you Zac!!! | ||
| Mquack996 |
Zac, I know some one asked this but I didn't see any answer. What was the clearance on that valve? (if I had to guess I would say you had none) It looks to bad just to be poor lubrication, if it had no lubrication ya, but all your lobes would be damaged. If there is no clearance there is more of an issue than just the cam. From the pic it looks like the damage is on the ramp portion of the cam, this is where the valve just starts to open, so spring pressure here should be fairly light and increase as it fully opens. If your clearance is gone this turns into a collision instead of a gradual opening and could be where your damage is from. Chances are slim that on a properly functioning scooter, the valves would be out of adjustment at 12k. But thats why you check so you find problems before it blows. So make sure your Dealer finds out why and just dosn't replace your cam. Or it just might not make it to its next valve check. Good luck | ||
| Zac4mac |
I went ahead and checked them all yesterday, then put the lids back on. All four cams were on the tight side, but in spec. Intakes, a .005" slid in sloppy and a .006" went in tight. Exhaust, I don't have a .009", but an .008" slid in sloppy and a .010" went in tight. My feeler gauges are plus, so a .006" is .0062" or so. I expected it to be a little looser. I'd have to pull the front and rotate the engine to be sure, but I think the damaged ramp is on the falling side. As localized as it is, I expect this to be a heat-treating problem. Z | ||
| Zac4mac |
OK, just what I expected. Matt at C/S called and said button her up and get her down to High Country so Maxie can do the warranty repair. They are going to cover both the cam and the follower. He also said they are cool with me doing all the services as long as I keep good records. Buell C/S is da Bomb. Before I put the motor back up tho, I'm going to check that screen that just got mentioned. http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/290 431/392305.html?1220635175 Thanks for that info "Bpt" Z | ||
| Zac4mac |
Update - I found three tiny(<.5mm) flakes of the cam in the screen. Extremely thin and irregular, that's all that was there. I will probably change this oil soon to flush the engine, but looks like I caught it before any collateral damage. Off today and tomorrow, hope to have Loretta buttoned up and to the dealership by Friday. This is the longest I haven't ridden her since I got her.... Z | ||
| C4bird |
Zac, Did you have any ticking or not-hard knocking giving you any indication there was a problem? I'm asking because I have a soft-knock, loud ticking noise that has been getting a bit louder and lasting longer each start up(usually goes away 5-10 minutes into the ride if engine temp is above 180, never goes away if sustained temp is below 175). Dealer says, it nothing to worry about....  I don't agree, but I don't want to open it up to prove them wrong. I have a feeling it could be the front cam, and after seeing your pic, it gives me a bad feeling mine might be the same. (Message edited by c4bird on September 11, 2008) | ||
| Xb9 |
The valve lash will normally tighten up with wear, not loosen. This is normal. OMHO, excessive heat may at least have contributed to this failure. Could be just a bad cam and/or follower. Looks exactly like the cam lobe out of my first XB9 engine that wasted that motor. That engine ran fine by the way, found it on a winter inspection because I was using it on the track. I tore it down completely because of the metal contamination and the pistons/bores were shot, along with the oil pump. If it was my engine, with that hard cam metal floating around, I'd ask for a complete tear down and inspection. That metal will make a mess out of the bores. I don't mean to scare you Zack, but IMO it should be completely torn down and inspected. | ||
| Xb9 |
Zack, just curious - what oil are you using? And what mileage were the changes at? | ||
| Oddball |
 I hope that isolated but I'd bet everyone inspects theirs. |
