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Naustin
| | Posted on Monday, August 04, 2008 - 02:14 pm: | 
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Sloppy: I'm not looking for sympathy so don't patronize me.
I can absolutly accept that the failures are possibly a symptom of some other problem. I have not been able to find what that cause might be. Danbury Buell could not find what that cause would be either. It would have been a huge relief if they had!
Maybe the bike is really not designed for 2 people and luggage - maybe it was just overloaded -- I don't know?
The rear isolators - MIGHT - be bad, though according to 3 dealerships and my own inspections they "appear" ok. Its a 2001 and the rears are the new style from the factory, and serveral respected BWBers have told me they have never heard of the new syle rears going bad - especially if they show not cracks or tears on visual inspection. But, anything is possible.
There are really only three possibilities -Either I am getting defective parts, or the part in general is simply poorly designed and doesn't have enough redundancy or strengh to survive variations in certain bikes/models/conditions, or there is somethign else wrong with the bike that I can't figure out.
The part for the Tubers is the same as the part of the Blast now. Does that make sense? And even my Blast is on its 3rd one in less than 10K mi.!
I just don't care anymore. I'm getting off the train. |
Oldog
| | Posted on Monday, August 04, 2008 - 02:40 pm: |
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Has anyone done a complete motor / chassis alignment?
Good Question Grad, I wonder what can fail be misinstalled, that would over load the front mount. and fail the iso? }
I had to jack the motor up quite a bit to get the bolt started,
on the X1 there are 4 tie bars
lower front by the oil filter
upper front on the motor mount
top on the cylinder head
rear on the swingarm mounting block
the 2 rear isolators that wedge the rear of the frame over the mount and hold the frame and mount together.
1 front isolator that the front of the motor is hanging from.
Is The alignment maintained by the tie bars which allow the engine to swing in one plane only or both
in which case other than ripping when is a rear isolator "dead"
can you alter the alignment by mis installing spacers under a tie bar assy say the top one? what does that do
just looking at it the front iso would seem to be in compression to a point |
Oldog
| | Posted on Monday, August 04, 2008 - 02:53 pm: |
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Maybe the bike is really not designed for 2 people and luggage
What was the total weight of your load out
what is the max gross weight listed
the X1 is just over 800 lbs bike and passengers.
With the bike "supposedly" weighing 480 lbs leaving 320 lbs, add me at 255 in my gear and 30 or so lbs of stuff thats 285 lbs leaving 35 lbs from limit, I have carried a couple of "passengers" that exceeded that limit and I could tell that the chassis did not "like" it at all.
Hugh had similar problems with his S3 and the front iso especialy 2 up and Hugh is not a "BIG" guy like me so unless that weight limit is lower than the X1 ( I doubt it ) or he was carrying a cast iron sink in his gear on the surface it sure makes me wonder about your failures and what I can expect from that new isolator that I have. } |
Naustin
| | Posted on Monday, August 04, 2008 - 03:06 pm: |
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My wife and I together go about 290 in our birthday suits. Both saddlebags were full of clothes. Plus I had the ventura pack with shoes, souviners, etc. Tank bag had a heavy tool kit that went 10lbs at least by itself.
I probably had 400+lbs of people gear and luggage on the bike. I don't know what the GVWR is but I'm sure we were significantly over it.
I would expect that to affect braking and suspension and for it to be generally unadvised and potentially unsafe in an emergency. HOwever, it shouldn't cause the motor to fall out of the frame...
But whatever. I just sold the bike.
(Message edited by naustin on August 04, 2008)
(Message edited by naustin on August 04, 2008) |
Oldog
| | Posted on Monday, August 04, 2008 - 03:12 pm: |
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HOwever, it shouldn't cause the motor to fall out of the frame...
TRUE
But whatever. I just sold the bike.
Congrats, I hope that you find a bike more to your liking to be sure. its no fun for the scoot to go down for any reason while out. |
Jramsey
| | Posted on Monday, August 04, 2008 - 03:20 pm: |
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Naustin
Nice talking to you on the phone, looking forward to meeting you.
The S3T will look good parked next to the X1.
James |
Buellfighter
| | Posted on Monday, August 04, 2008 - 03:31 pm: |
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Jramsey, when you find the problem will you post what was causing the iso's to prematurely wear out. Just curious. |
Naustin
| | Posted on Monday, August 04, 2008 - 03:36 pm: |
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I'd really be curious to know as well.
I'm glad it is "staying in the family". It was nice talking to you too James.
See you tomorrow, drive safe.
nick |
Sloppy
| | Posted on Monday, August 04, 2008 - 08:09 pm: |
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Patronizing???
I'm sorry you didn't like a difference of experience and sharing of knowledge - just trying to dig into what the root cause of failure is... cause it may well be not be the isolator and hence not solve the original post's problems. If you try to mask a problem it can cause other problems elsewhere. I'm sorry that you've had such a difficult time with various dealers, mechanics and parts. Hopefully someone will find the problem and share that knowledge.
I'd give you a hug if that would help.  |
Naustin
| | Posted on Monday, August 04, 2008 - 10:47 pm: |
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I'd like a hug...  |
S2pengy
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 05, 2008 - 01:54 pm: |
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I noted the last time I did an isolator replacement how the top washer was sitting flush on the worn out/torn isolator. I then noted that the tube on the new isolator I was installing would leave a gap between the washer and isolator even under the engines weight. So the weight of the engine was trying to force the tube through the isolator... I wondered whether this would cause the breakdown and tearing since the tube was being force downward out of the isolator. Also I wondered as well what the tolarances on tube placement in the isolator and tube lenght were during manufacturing.. I put the newest isolator in a lathe and machined the tube so the washer would only have a gap of 0.002 between the isolator and the tube under the engines weight(I had figured flush might cause increased vibration). All I can say is so far so good.. I used a JP Cycle standard isolator... I am reluctant to recommend this since I only have put 5,000 miles on this since I did it, so try at your own risk... |
Oldog
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 05, 2008 - 02:31 pm: |
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I did not find this gap after torqing the hanger bolt to spec and releasing the jack the D washer was sitting flush on the isolator. and the "tube" was being pulled down, |
Eshardball
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 05, 2008 - 03:25 pm: |
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I found the same thing on the Drag Specialties Isolator that I installed this weekend. It transmits a lot of vibration. I am doing my rear Isos tonight and planned on cutting down the tube so that the top washer was compressing the rubber. I don't see how it can function as a vibration isolator when all the metal parts are clamped together. |
Jramsey
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 06, 2008 - 04:13 am: |
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Naustin
Nice meeting you in person, wish you and I had more time to BS, but you took off time from work to take care of me, Thanks.
The S3T is now parked next to the X1 and other bikes that I have.
I left my house at 7:00 this morning and the Thunderbolt was sitting next to the X1 at 11:00 PM tonight after driving 942 miles in 16 hours to the minute.
I do believe 99% I found your last problem after I got home and unloaded things and relaxed(hot shower and a few beers)and took some time to study the matter.
I'll PM you later today before I post what "I" believe/know to be the problem.
PS
I got to the Interstate and went to check the tie downs and noticed you left the '09 tag, so I removed it and drove back through town and gave it to the girl at the front desk.(you looked busy at the time.)
Thanks again for the "gas money" .
It's late and I've been up for over 24 hrs.
later guys. |
46champ
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 06, 2008 - 07:46 pm: |
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Naustin you made the statement that you were probably over the gross weight of the motorcycle. That brings up a point S3's and S3t's would probably have the greatest tendency to be overloaded just because of intended use of the bike, touring and riding 2 up. Does anyone know if they have had a greater amount of failures of S3's from a total number or percentage of the total fleet. |
Naustin
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 06, 2008 - 08:04 pm: |
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James, Gld you made it home safe and that the S3T has found a good home! |
Jramsey
| | Posted on Friday, August 08, 2008 - 02:01 am: |
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Sorry I didn't reply sooner had a family emergency.(88 year old mother.)
I do believe Nick and his wife had an angel sitting on their shoulders while on vacation aboard the Thunderbolt.
When I got home from picking up my new scoot and after relaxing a bit I pulled the isolator out that Nick had the dealer replace on his trip East and that he thought had failed again shortly afterwards on his return trip home.
The ISO I took out is marked BARRY 28043 and showed no signs of failure, no cracks or splits.
I think when the ISO failed and he rode 400 plus miles to a dealer for repairs it stressed the left ISO head mount bolt to the max short of failure and a visual inspection performed by the service personal deemed all was fine.(I would have done the same).
Nick stated he check it often on the return trip and didn't notice the broken ISO mount bolt till he got home.
It would be my guess he was worried about the ISO itself and didn't catch the broken bolt.
The bolt was broken off flush with the head and the only reason its not laying on the Interstate back east is because the clutch cable kept it from falling out.
The clutch cable has a flat spot worn on it where the bolt head rubbed.
The shank/shaft of the bolt has all the plating worn off from dancing around loose inside the ISO mount for many,many miles.
The right ISO bolt when I removed it looked like new.
I believe Nick rode most of the way on his trip home with only right ISO bolt supporting the front of the engine which put the right side of the ISO mount under a severe load, and its a wonder it didn't break.
I installed a 79D ISO which is made of a much denser rubber then what the one marked 28043, no comparison really.
I checked the ISO mount with dye penetrant and saw no defects but will replace it as soon as I find another because of the stress it has endured.
Anyhoo got it back together this evening and went for a short test ride right before dark.
I really like the bar height,seat and peg configuration, quite comfortable compared to my X1.
Two thing I did notice is,
The preload in the rear shock is waaaay to stiff for my fat little 175lb body 1 up and I notice the tread on the rear tire is cupped pretty bad so I checked the air pressure, 48 lbs. 
The Buell Pro pipes deep sound (compared to my X1s Wileyco bark)sounds really sweet interrupting the late evening quite.
(Message edited by J.ramsey on August 08, 2008) |
Jramsey
| | Posted on Friday, August 08, 2008 - 04:38 am: |
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As far as the alignment issue I don't think there is any.
I chucked the 79D in the lathe and punched a 1/2 inch drill bit though it, then ran a .503 reamer to clean it up.
I bolted it up tight then installed the ISO mount on the head per SM specs.
I then jacked the motor up until the mount touched the ISO and put slight pressure on it and I was able to insert the ISO bolt with thumb pressure only.
The cross tie rod assy. installed the same.
Time and miles will tell.
James
(Message edited by J.ramsey on August 08, 2008) |
Buellistic
| | Posted on Friday, August 08, 2008 - 07:49 am: |
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Jramsey:
YOU are one of the FEW that think out of the BOX !!!
When the nay say'ers say no to what ever the "PRODUCT IMPROVEMENT" is, that is when to "GET'er DONE" ... |
Buellfighter
| | Posted on Friday, August 08, 2008 - 09:15 am: |
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Way-to-go Jramsey!!! Good job!! |
Bikerjim99
| | Posted on Friday, August 08, 2008 - 10:14 am: |
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Great work, James!
Do you find any extra vibration due to the denser rubber compound of the new isolator?
I am sure that I will eventually have to replace mine, and hopefully we will have a consensus of what isolator is best.
Hopefully I won't have to choose between reliability and comfort as to which isolator to purchase. |
Oldog
| | Posted on Friday, August 08, 2008 - 10:40 am: |
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Jim how much of the tube wall is left after the drill out? are we talking reaming out 0.020 from the radius or 060?
please keep us in the loop on this and congrats on the new bike |
Newbuellertoo
| | Posted on Friday, August 08, 2008 - 10:55 am: |
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I have a posting in the K.V. about vibration and the front isolator, but this appears to be a more appropriate place to get an answer to my question. 2000 S3T, 24,000 kms. I have the DSE stand that lifts from the pegs and I use a small jack under the shock mount to get the front wheel off of the ground. Should I expect to see a gap open up between the rubber and the hold down when I lift the engine slightly or should the assembly stay together? Any pictures / advice would be much appreciated. |
Oldog
| | Posted on Friday, August 08, 2008 - 11:33 am: |
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Should I expect to see a gap open up between the rubber and the hold down when I lift the engine slightly
Yes
you are taking the weight off of the isolator, In the relaxed state there may be a small gap between the top rubber and the D washer.
Un bolted there is about 1/8" gap between the D washer and the iso
The stands for the rear should make no difference at least that I can think of, the shock mount lift point is picking the motor up then the front end. |
Naustin
| | Posted on Friday, August 08, 2008 - 12:28 pm: |
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James, I'm positive that last isolator was bad. The top half was OK, but from underneath, there was a large vertical tear in it. Not sure how you could miss it -- I could poke my finger it in... Try twisting the isolator to revel the crack.
Its possible that the bolt sheered sometime during day 10. Now that I think of it, I only checked the isolator for further damage on the morning of the 11th day, I didn't look at the bolt. That would mean possibly 350+ miles of riding with the busted bolt. Like I said, I don't remember hearing the jingle until I got home. I would have known what it was immediatly!!
Anyways, Glad you got the bike fixed! I will always miss it and I hope you keep it on the road for many, many years. I think it went to the right home.
I am picking up my brand-new Honda ST1300 tomorrow! 3yr, unlimited miles factory warranty and a motor that's smooth as butter 
Enjoy the S3T!
Nick |
Naustin
| | Posted on Friday, August 08, 2008 - 12:34 pm: |
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PS - my tire pressure guage must be off. I set the pressure at 42lbs, cold. Its a brand new high dollar tire pressure guage from aerostich too... weird.
Maybe the temp has something to do with it. Last time I adjusted the airpressure, it was early morning and only 60 degrees outside. If you're pushing 100s maybe there's the difference?
(Message edited by naustin on August 08, 2008) |
Standingdeadwood
| | Posted on Friday, August 08, 2008 - 10:58 pm: |
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Isn't the engine a stressed member on a tuber? The rear shock pulls on the front of the motor, causing the motor to rotate about the rear mount, pulling down on the front isolator. Over loading or bottoming out due to not having the preload for the rear shock adjusted properly would definitely cause problems.
Yes, overloading can cause the engine to be pulled out of the frame.
If you want to have a good experience on your Honda, read the owner's manual before putting the kitchen sink on it.
Twenty nine thousand miles on original front isolator and still happy to be riding my X1. |
Naustin
| | Posted on Friday, August 08, 2008 - 11:57 pm: |
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I figured out the failures were due to the bike being overloaded and causing exactly the issue you describe about 35 posts ago. But, thanks for the not reading the backstory and then takin a shot at me.  |
Newbuellertoo
| | Posted on Saturday, August 09, 2008 - 09:40 am: |
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I have been following a number of different posts trying to find a root cause for my vibration problem. I think my rear shock is leaking out. Based on the above post, could the change in geometry cause more vibration to be felt through the pegs and frame? |
Buellistic
| | Posted on Saturday, August 09, 2008 - 12:15 pm: |
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The TUBE FRAMES were set up for a 165 pound rider ...
"NOW", this is AMERICA and some of us are over weight("i" weight 250 lbs. or so and the wife is not far from this)which right away max's the GVWR(weight of motorcycles, accessories, rider(passinger PLUS EACH'es RIDING GEAR), what ever you can in the saddlebags(2), tank bag, fairing bags(2) and pockets ...
"SO", GVWR is 850 LBS. - MC with fuel & oil is about 494 lbs. = 356 lbs. - rider/passinger(My wife & "i") 500 lbs. = over weight 144 lbs. + 25 lbs. each saddlebag= 194 lbs.+ tank bag 25 lb. = 219 lbs. "OVER WEIGHT" !!!
"NOW" do not forget add more air to the front and rear tires( "i" run 37 PSI front and 45 PSI rear) ...
Suspension which should not be forgotten:
"i" have heavier oil and springs in front forks ... Pre-load set at 1 inch ... Rebound and Damping "MAX." !!! Triple tree dropped 1 inch on front forks(have a 3/4 inch spacer under handlebars and the fork tubes touch the handlebars) ...
Had a rear shock made rated at 500 pounds ... Set Pre-Load at 1 inch ... Rebound and Damping set at "MAX." ... Still running the OEM rear shock that came on my S3T ...
If you ride solo tune for that ...
"i" tune suspension for riding double and just leave it that way ... |
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