| Author |
Message |
    
Boatz
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 21, 2004 - 01:26 am: | 
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90.7hp; 82.7ft/lbs
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Socoken
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 21, 2004 - 07:19 pm: |
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79.8 SAE HP @ 6678RPM
71.4 SAE TQ @ 3446RPM
am i missing something? how did i lose almost 5 hp by putting in bigger cams? |
Josh_
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 21, 2004 - 07:49 pm: |
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Where's Aaron and the Theory of Constraints when you need him? |
Socoken
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 21, 2004 - 08:51 pm: |
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but theres nothing really choking it off, 6678rpm for the peak hp, the line on the chart never even begins to nose over before he shuts down. the torque line is flat as hell too. so i took it out and test rode it, clutched up a couple second gear wheelies rather easily, whereas it wouldnt even think about it before the cams. was i BS-ed with some funky charts before? why am i, after thousands of dollars in upgrades, only now making near the factory rated HP at the motor for this bike (figuring 15 percent loss to the rear wheel) ?
both curves are smooth and linear, and the torque is flat as hell, and the HP never noses over, perfect lines as far as im concerned, but the numbers just dont add up. i am at a loss, any ideas or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
thanks,
Ken |
Reepicheep
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 21, 2004 - 10:24 pm: |
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The head porting has to match the cams... and the exhaust... you could have an unhappy combo there.
What were the dyno machines used for each test? One of them could be way off... |
Socoken
| | Posted on Thursday, April 22, 2004 - 10:43 am: |
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it was the same machine, at the same place, at the same time of year (within two days) about two years apart. Superflo WinDyn. the newer run used a correction factor of .993 while the old one used .969. whereas my old dyno run gained almost ten hp by going from wheel hp to SAE HP, the new run lost 1 hp going from wheel hp to SAE. i could really use some help from someone who knows how to read these things.
maybe i shouldnt fuss over numbers so much, the bike runs smooth as glass, and is still kinda fast, so maybe i should just ride the shit out of it, enjoy it, and forget this ever happened. |
Captainkirk
| | Posted on Thursday, April 22, 2004 - 11:48 pm: |
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Ken, look at it this way;
If the bike had dyno'd 110hp and 100 ft/lb of torque just the way you say it rides now, you'd be on cloud nine. Numbers don't mean jack to a street rider. Enjoy your new cams and leave the dyno runs for the geeks. |
57sporty
| | Posted on Friday, April 30, 2004 - 08:27 am: |
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Ken, I would have to guess 92HP and 84LB. I have caught the tail end of this conversation and do not know the particulars of the bike setup.
Steve Queen |
Socoken
| | Posted on Friday, May 07, 2004 - 03:49 am: |
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i had my bike dynoed again and had about the same, 81 rwhp, but the sniffer pegged the chart rich. what sort of shop charges 190 bucks and 22 runs to leave the bike running so rich it wont show up on another sniffer? am i missing something here?
ive decided ive got a crappy pair of T-storm heads that are cutting off the flow, and am deciding to go for porting or XB heads, any ideas?
thanks,
Ken |
X1lightning
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 11, 2004 - 11:29 am: |
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Anyone got a map or an idea where I can get a map for a power commander on my 99 X1 with K&N in stock box, V&H muffler, high perf. 02 sensor, and race ecm? I found a map for stock ecm with these components, but nothing close for race ecm. The few maps that dynojet has on their website for race ecm cause it to not want to idle. They're for more modified systems. (I did reset TPS after installing race ecm). Thanks for any guidance. |
Misato
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 12, 2004 - 03:31 pm: |
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03 9S
force/nallin pipe
PCIII +custom map
hipo o2
holes in airbox
K&N
3800miles
I've had it on 2 different dyno's now and both say the same thing +-2hp. how'd you people get 89?
anyway, runs great...
 |
Blake
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 12, 2004 - 10:32 pm: |
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Misato,
No XB12 airbox lid? Also, your runs above are "uncorrected". With STP at sea level consisting of 29.92 in-Hg and 59oF, your corrected values will be around ((75.13+460)/(59+460))(29.92/29.45)(78.9)=82.6 RWHP. A very crude correction factor of about 1.048
Is that better?  |
Misato
| | Posted on Thursday, May 13, 2004 - 07:06 pm: |
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yeah, i know its just numbers, it runs great so I wasn't crying too much 8o)
Well, I used the stock 9 lid with tons of holes cut into it. from what I've read its about the same as the 12box on the dyno. |
Blake
| | Posted on Saturday, May 15, 2004 - 02:00 am: |
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Misato,
I think the 12 box may be even better especially at the top end. The 12 box provides optimum flow into the intake by use of its adolescent breast looking protrusion just above the velocity stack.
But hey, 83 rwhp ain't bad at all. And if they ran it in 4th gear, you could be looking at around 86 rwhp in 5th gear. And if they were sitting full on the bike and instead next time ran it with just adequate pressure you might see more like 88 rwhp. And if the engine and fluids weren't completely warmed up... maybe 89 rwhp... See what I'm getting at? Your bike is most likely running strong for an XB9. |
Valez
| | Posted on Thursday, May 27, 2004 - 11:08 am: |
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Does anyone know how I can see if my S1 has Thunderstorm heads mounted? |
Fuscat
| | Posted on Thursday, May 27, 2004 - 11:23 am: |
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Valez if you do they will be black in color. My 97 has the lightning heads which are silver.I believe the only ones to come stock with thunderstorms was the 98 S1W's but I remember reading somewhere not too long ago that some late year bikes got them instead of the lightning heads not sure if that is true or not. Black heads = Thunderstorms Silver heads = lightning (unless of course modification has taken place and they are not stock) |
Socoken
| | Posted on Monday, June 07, 2004 - 08:46 pm: |
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2001 M2
K&N in stock airbox
kehin with thunderslide kit
V&H slipon
Andrews N8 cams
compufire adjustable ignition
this is follow up to above mentioned dilemma in losing HP with N8 cams. max hp is 79.8.
here is a chart i made, comparing a previous dyno tune with the current. previous runs were made with all above mods except cams, cams in previous setup are stock M2. the light color runs (higher) are with stock cams, the darker ones with the N8 cams. any help or info greatly appreciated.
 |
Captainkirk
| | Posted on Monday, June 07, 2004 - 11:16 pm: |
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Ken,
I'm no expert, but my guess is that you're not moving enough air through the motor with the stock Helmholtz box (K&N notwithstanding) and the exhaust system (stock header pipe) you're running to utilize the duration the cams are giving you. I believe Aaron went into detail about this a while back in the KV. You also might need to rejet. Just a guess... |
Socoken
| | Posted on Monday, June 07, 2004 - 11:20 pm: |
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I seem to remember Aaron mentioning a cyclone with a V&H on stock header making over 100 rwhp, so i cant see the exhaust being an issue, the intake however, might be the culprit. thanks for the input. |
Aesquire
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 08, 2004 - 09:46 am: |
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Try replacing the helmholtz tube with the $1 venturi ring. Free the K&N from it's little dog house with a homemade clamp ( cut a piece of aluminum, about 1/2" wide that will fit inside the filter box, with holes in matching places, use stock bolts w/blue locktite to hold down filter ) that will significantly improve airflow.
Cheap.
Re jet as needed. I don't know what you'd use with the thunderslide kit. I suggest routing the breather lines to a catch can. ( see knowledge vault for ideas )
edited by aesquire on June 08, 2004 |
Aaron
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 08, 2004 - 09:51 am: |
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were both pulls done on a Superflow dyno?
Superflows and Dynojets give very different numbers. |
Socoken
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 08, 2004 - 02:33 pm: |
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both pulls on exact same dyno, just about two years apart.
both pulls were made under similar conditions, at the same time of year, and by the same operator
edited by socoken on June 08, 2004 |
Aaron
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 08, 2004 - 10:59 pm: |
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Was the bike tuned at all?
Timing is rarely correct after a cam swap unless someone corrects it ... any marks you make with the old cams in place are likely invalid with the new bumpsticks. This is a common mistake I see people make, swapping cams and putting the plate back where it was and assuming the timing will be okay. And improper timing can hurt the power a bunch. It often doesn't take much. Remember, every mark on that plate, i.e. about .065 of movement at the o.d., represents a full five degrees of timing.
Also take an a.f plot and see where the jetting is. Put it around 13:1.
edited by aaron on June 08, 2004 |
Captainkirk
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 08, 2004 - 11:52 pm: |
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I knew Aaron would set this straight... |
Socoken
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 09, 2004 - 12:07 am: |
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timing was advanced 4 degrees during the dyno tune. jetting was also changed. 20 to 30 pulls were made in 4 hours by the in house dyno tuner. i know the bike is running fairly rich, but it is still smooth through the RPMS.
thank you very much for taking the time to help Aaron.
edited by socoken on June 09, 2004 |
Aaron
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 09, 2004 - 08:04 am: |
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Well, it doesn't sound like I was much help. Those are just the things that popped into my head.
I dunno, the N8's are really not a bad set of cams at all for a set of bolt-ins. Not terribly different from the Lightning cams, mainly just a more advanced intake lobe, which has the effect of making the exhaust system more important as well as limiting the top end a tad. But the result you're showing doesn't make sense.
See the little double peak in your torque curve? I see that all the time with that muffler. It actually works pretty good.
If the bike were mine, I'd probably do some pulls with the air cleaner off, and I'd probably lose the Thunderslide gimmick.
Wish I could be of more help. If you want to bring it over ... |
Socoken
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 09, 2004 - 11:00 pm: |
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Aaron, thanks again.
i wish i could have been in on the tune, or at least talked to the guy that did it. i just left a list of things i wanted to know about what he did and he wrote on it and left it for me. i got there at the end of it and he was avoiding me. i used to be a mechanic (cars) and i always hated it when people left me a list, so i have this suspicion that he might not have done his best work. but a pro wouldnt do anything like that, right?
by "lose the thunderslide gimmick", do you mean with a mikuni or just back to stock slide? Ive been kicking around the idea of a mikuni, so that might be what i need to hear. i remember the chart you posted comparing a CV to a mikuni on a bone stock cyclone, and there was very little power gain on the dyno. i understand the throttle response improvement, but that was why i did the thunderslide. maybe my bike has enough add-ons to make the mikuni worth it?
could it be just a poor set of T-storms? ive read some posts you have made in the past about castings wearing out on later models, maybe the cams are just too much for my heads?
Thanks again, i value your opinions highly. if only i had the funds, id be on my way west tomorrow.
Ken |
Aaron
| | Posted on Thursday, June 10, 2004 - 09:00 am: |
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I dunno, Ken, it looks like a pretty broad-based loss. Hard for me to believe your heads went backwards on you.
As broad as the loss is, it looks like you're just not developing cylinder pressure like you were. This isn't a case of it running out of breath at high rpm, you lost over the whole range.
Hard for me to believe a set of properly installed N8's made the cylinder fill move backwards that far and over that big of a range. The additiuonal overlap will certainly make the cylinder fill more sensitive to the exhaust, but that's not a bad exhaust, I've made over 100hp with that slip-on numerous times with cams that have as much or more overlap than N8's. I just don't see it.
If he did that many pulls, a person could assume he did a thorough job of timing and jetting. So the burn should be efficient and timed right.
So where does that leave you? Maybe it's a sealing issue. When I'm seeing something I can't make sense out of, that's the first thing I do, check the mechanical integrity of the motor. Run a leak down and a compression test. TDC lifts on the N8's are a little higher than the Lightning cams, so it's not outside the realm of possibility that the valves got together or a piston kissed a valve. Shouldn't, but it's worth checking. Keep in mind that those cams pre-date Thunderstorm valve sizes. XL heads have substantially smaller valves, 1.715/1.480 versus 1.810/1.575 for Thunderstorms. So there's a whole lot less bolt-in margin with Thunderstorms. |
Bud
| | Posted on Monday, June 14, 2004 - 02:41 pm: |
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finally had the chance to dyno my little bolt and let marcel fine tune the pc3
tq. 86 hp 96
millenium bigbore 12 kit, little poorting, 12 headers, 12 airbox lid, lucky race can
rest still stock
perhaps next winter some throttle bore 
gr,b
edited by bud on June 14, 2004 |
Socoken
| | Posted on Monday, June 14, 2004 - 04:31 pm: |
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thats a nice looking chart, bet that bike is great fun to ride. nicely done Bud |
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