| Author | Message | ||
     Jgoeke11 |
i have heard/read that you can upshift with out aid of the clutch, and that it is actually less stress on the tranny. looking for someone to verify this, or shut it down any info would help. thanks, jg | ||
| Mr2shim |
I see no point unless you are drag racing or running from the popo. I can't see how it would be less stress on the transmission in any way. I did it on my way home when my clutch cable broke it wasn't pleasant; the violent jerk. | ||
| Werewulf |
i use a method in the middle... i preload the shift lever and only pull in the clutch a quarter inch...a method commonly used by beemer riders, to smooth out a notchy transmission.. ive shifted without the clutch without problem, but i dont recommend it.. | ||
| Buelltroll |
Its possible I do it when I'm feeling lazy Lots of ppl do it for racing I wouldn't recommend it with our tractor like tranny though Doesn't SEEM like its better for it actually quite the opposite because there is a very noticble CLUUUNK when you dont get it exactly right | ||
| Reepicheep |
A lot of import riders talk about doing it on the street, and how well their bikes handle it because their transmissions are so good. I had a friend in Springdale, Ohio, that made a lot of money fixing those bikes. The dogs wear and the shift forks bend. Every time I went into his shop, there as another import with a case split open getting worked on. | ||
| Aj06bolt12r2 |
on gixxers or dirtbikes it works just fine, thats the only way i shift when riding wheelies on the dirtbike. on our buells however it sucks and I never do it, dont see why you would want to , the trannys just dont like it. no way its less stress on any tranny. | ||
| Allthegoodonesrtkn |
i owned a 05 gsxr-750 and did clutchless up shifts most of the time, and the bike shifted smoother without the clutch. But when I tried doing this on my 2004 VFR800 the bike shifted like crap, "clunky". Same with the buell, shifts like crap without the clutch. So I use the clutch on the buell xb12xt. | ||
| Sloppy |
As long as the gears and engine are at a matched speed then there will be no issues -- but that's why you have a clutch in the first place... so if you want to keep your shift drum, forks and gear dogs in good shape then use the clutch. To do fast "clutch" shifting all you need do is preload the shifter (like Were mentions) and just barely feather the clutch lever. Works great and shifts very quickly. | ||
| Jaimec |
Did you think Buell installed a clutch lever by mistake? | ||
| Jgoeke11 |
yes i actually did... im not saying that it is always the best method i was talking about under max acceleration, because when you clutch it sometimes it slips for a bit even after you let the clutch out all of the way, and i do mean under max accel: 100% throttle, preload shifter, then roll off a little and it slips right into gear. im not talking about trying to get around town clunking the transmission because im a lazy ass | ||
| Mattl |
When I was at VIR for at trackday, I tried my darndest to continually upshift without the clutch. But I could just never do it smoothly. That was all full throttle shifting. I would preload the shift lever, and just barely crack the throttle closed. It would shift each time, but with a serious jerk. I just felt like it was too much stress on the driveline. I could shift much smoother and faster with a quick, light clutch pull. I think the engine spools down to slowly due to heavy rotational mass, at least in comparison to I4s. I broke a belt at about 25000 miles while doing a clutchless upshift. May have just been a weak belt and the extra jolt finished it off, but no matter. I choose to use the clutch from now on. As long as you have the clutch adjusted correctly, it just barely takes a little squeeze and goes smooth as glass. BTW, this is on an 06' 12s, so I have the somewhat upgraded tranny. | ||
| Mr2shim |
My clutch has NEVER slipped going 100% throttle balls to the wall............ | ||
| Iamarchangel |
Too many years of mx memory, I've caught myself speedshifting a couple of times. It's been surprisingly smooth but I don't want to make it a standard practice. My Ducati buddy calls our shift agricultural, it's not that bad. What is meant by preloading the shifter? | ||
| Eicas |
Do it all the time on my Honda VFR800 without any snags. Slight pressure on the shift lever, momentarily back off on the throttle and I get a smooth quick shift. I only do it going up a gear, not going down. However, the Buell does not like it. Tried a couple of times and the shifts were too hard, so I use the clutch. | ||
| Ghost_rider33 |
If you preload the shift lever a bit, and hold the throttle open all the way to the limiter, the tranny will pop into the next gear when it bounces off the limiter. It's alot smoother than shifting below redline without the clutch. I found that it doesn't like to go into fifth so well with this method though. It requires more "preload." | ||
| Marko138 |
My Buell requires the clutch to be pulled in all the way to the bar. I suspect I need a bit of clutch adjustment. | ||
| Randomchaos |
I used to clutchless upshift on my FZ6 all the time when I was WOT. Its easier to do at WOT because when you back off, and get back on, you dont have to worry about giving it too much gas as you get back on it, since your going right back to WOT. Ive done it on the Buell. Its not as smooth feeling as it was on my FZ6, but granted this tranny isnt nearly as smooth shifting as my FZ6 was in the first place. Its no more jerky though when done right. Like others have said, all it takes is preloading the shifter a little, ie putting some slight pressure on it. Then quickly roll off the throttle about 1/4 of the way. It should slide into the next gear rather smoothly. Then, quickly roll back on the throttle and your off rolling along in another gear. The people who tear up their trannys dont know how to do it properly. Most that dont know how to do it either dont preload the shifter, and just slam it into the next gear, or dont even roll off the throttle. | ||
| Alchemy |
I find this works best when at the higher engine rpms and WOT. 5 to 6 grand. | ||
| Ttags |
i use the clutch only when starting or riding it like a girl.( if your a chick reading this, nix that comment, and call me  ) if i'm gonna beat the piss out of it or ride hard at all, just let off the gas click up the shifter and slam the gas again. its very smooth and seems to keep front end down a little better. if you get a chance, practice in a car. you'll get the concept of matching the gears. hondas and other small cars are much easier to learn with. if you dont get the concept or cant do it in a car. DO NOT TRY on your bike... | ||
| Schmitty |
The problem lies in the heavy flywheel. I've tried it on my race bike, and I could never get it right no matter what. I've found the best way to shift it is to fan the clutch with a preloaded shifter. Ghostrider, the problem with holding it to the limiter and letting it shift itself is that now your past your torque peak. Look at the dyno chart for a Buell sometime, the torque actually starts to fall off before you hit the rev limiter. Unless you have a lot of tuning done on you bike you're gonna lose time by running it to the redline. Schmitty | ||
| Punkid8888 |
When ever I run my bike at the track I usually clutch the one two shift and the rest is clutchless. I found that a one two clutchless shift results in a high probability of the front tire in the air. on the street I rarely shift clutchless. I use to more on my old yamaha but it seamed to like it more. I agree with Schmitty, During a clutchless shift either the engine or rear tire needs to change its RPM. I think on a chain driven bike the slack in the chain and the cush drive helps along with the lighter rotating assembly. I would think that our always tensioned belt, no cush drive and heavy rotating assembly hurts our ability to clutchless shift. I wonder is putting a little more slack in the primary chain would help. | ||
| Werewulf |
but then, we have members on this site who have well over 100k on their bikes and going strong... others bikes are whipped at 25k... could be riding style has a lot to do with it... | ||
| Scott_in_nh |
I shift my S3 at the dragstrip without the clutch without problem. Done properly, a small, rapid "snick" off and on of the throttle with a well time snick of the gearshift, results in a VERY SMOOTH shift that (IMO) isn't any harder on the transmission than a clutched shift - only faster! I would not recommend it at part throttle on the street as it can result in a clunky shift and is generally not needed unless you are racing somebody through the gears. I am not a transmission expert, but I highly suspect that preloading the lever is one of the WORSE thing you can do to your tranny! Waiting for the rev limiter to kick in to unload the tranny probably negates the advantage as I lose at least a tenth of a second anytime I accidentally bump the limiter. These bikes, in my experience, run quicker when shifted before redline anyway. Clutchless shifting at the drags is good for 1 or 2 tenths - a tenth is about 15' at 100 mph - so it is worth doing. | ||
| Djkaplan |
I've had to shift clutchless (out of neccesity) and I noticed I could shift just as smoothly in the upper gears as I could with a clutch. Downshifting was not fun, though, in any gear. I'm under no pretense of what's happening in the gearset when shifting clutchless. Even when unloaded by the the throttle (dragstrip air shifters interupt the ignition to do the same thing), you have to be putting the engagement dogs under more duress than with a properly executed (but longer) shift using the clutch. Not just the engagment dogs, but the internal splines of the countershaft gears too. Would I do it at the dragstrip? I would certainly try it and see if I had the moxie for it. But I would do it with the knowledge that no matter how much carnage I could unleash in the transmission with hamfisted (and hamfooted) clutchless shifts, I could have the transmission out and fixed pretty easily in just a few hours because I have a tuber with a trapdoor transmission. No way I'd abuse an XB transmission with the prospect of splitting the cases to do the most fundamental inspection. | ||
| New12r |
Downshifting was not fun, though, in any gear. You aint doing it right. I use hand signals only and have to clutchless downshift alot. I got no problems and it is smooth with a little rev matching. | ||
| Iamarchangel |
Djkaplan's point is good. I've had to replace a Honda shift forks because of worn dogs, etc. No fun at all. My Husky was darn close to auto, only clutch at starts and the odd corner. No problem with that transmission. If preloading means pushing up on the shifter before the shift, I'd say don't do that. Too many gently grinding parts. Work on the timing, it'll do it. I don't know yet who the experienced race mechanics are here: go with their advice. | ||
| Odinbueller |
There is no reason to shift without the clutch in street riding. Period. Just so everyone is on the same page, an XB motor must be split to service the transmission. I'm in the process of rebuilding our XB12R race bike, and can supply pictures of what "clutchless shifting" does. It absolutely tears up the dogs on the engagement gears, leading to slipping out of gear, poor engagement, and accelerated wear on the gears themselves. Don't forget, you have free wheeling gears on the mainshaft & countershaft, and those bearings ain't exactly robust. Not to mention the spacers and how they degrade over time. Anyone that states that you don't need the clutch to shift is misleading you, to put it a kindly as possible. It is so much easier to service your clutch than it is to service your transmission. Period. Use your clutch! That's what its there for! Pictures to follow tomorrow. | ||
| Ttags |
if you can do it and it feels perfectly smooth, no clunking or jerks, its not a problem. if ya get a cluck, dont even try, practice on something a little easier to fix. basically dont try it unless you know what your doing. in other words, just read scott-in-nh's blurb. i think he covered it very well. | ||
| Werewulf |
when i say preload, im not talking about bonzai drag racing..in normal riding, a slight pre-load can smooth things out..ive got almost half a million miles of riding and have never replaced a clutch or a tranny.. most experienced beemer riders preload their shifts and seldom have a tranny failure... its all in knowing how.. |
