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Rocketsprink
| | Posted on Monday, May 12, 2008 - 08:20 am: | 
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"Please explain how a union would have helped this?"
Because rather than one person making the choice, it is put out for all involved to vote on whether to accept or reject. Had the office workers had a choice, all but her said they would have said NO to the switch in insurance.
BTW, I'm sitting home today because for the last month work has slowed down so ALL FIELD employees have been working 4 day weeks to save the company some money until work picks up. Yet ALL office people are still working 5 days a week. Half of them don't understand why some office workers haven't been let go due to nothing for them to do. Yet 3 field guys were laid off. Seems to me us Union guys are willing to help out the COMPANY. |
Dynasport
| | Posted on Monday, May 12, 2008 - 08:53 am: |
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I grew up in the south, with very little exposure to unions. I do remember the "Look for the Union Label" commercials, however. At the time, my grandmother worked for Fruit of the Loom making shirts in a factory. That plant closed long ago and I can't remember when I last saw a union label or even a made in the U.S. label in a shirt. So many manufacturing jobs have moved off shore. Now technology and customer service jobs are leaving daily as well.
Corporations are all about making as much money for the stockholders as possible. Unions are all about getting the best pay and benefits for the workers as possible. Bad examples of both exist. We live in a changing world right now, and if both don't learn to change and adapt things are just going to get worse. |
Lightstick
| | Posted on Monday, May 12, 2008 - 09:28 am: |
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>>>Corporations are all about making as much money for the stockholders as possible. Unions are all about getting the best pay and benefits for the workers as possible. Bad examples of both exist. We live in a changing world right now, and if both don't learn to change and adapt things are just going to get worse.<<<
+1 |
Ft_bstrd
| | Posted on Monday, May 12, 2008 - 09:37 am: |
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Rocket,
Sounds like one person made a decision on health insurance based upon what was best for HER. Unless she's running the show, someone gave her that permission. Sounds like bad management.
Unions can't fix that. Ask Chrysler. |
Honu
| | Posted on Monday, May 12, 2008 - 10:23 am: |
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Some FYI,
Alot of Unions provide training programs which consist of a four year apprenticeship including field and classroom work. Theses programs turn out some very skilled employees that companies don't have to train themselves.
Some examples:
Electricians
Pipefitters
Boilermakers
Carpenters
Machinists
Sheet metal workers
There is good and bad in every walk of life, just wanted to point out some good. |
Buellinachinashop
| | Posted on Monday, May 12, 2008 - 10:28 am: |
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I was an IBEW construction electrician for almost 6 years. Topped out, and moved on, but the training was outstanding, both classroom and on-the-job. I can't believe that you can become a licensed electrician without serving an apprenticeship. The training you'd get with a non-union shop cann't be nearly as extensive, which could cost somebody their life. |
Rocketsprink
| | Posted on Monday, May 12, 2008 - 10:33 am: |
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Honu, a lot have switched to 5 years. That's what it is for Sprinklerfitters. and 4 plus years of classroom. |
Oldbiker
| | Posted on Monday, May 12, 2008 - 11:08 am: |
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Honu.....Thanks for your list of trade unions.
Having been a member of one for 50 years....I still find union bashing hard to swallow. Put broadly,unions wouldn't exist if they weren't needed. I for one find that overall my union card treated me well.
Steve |
Hughlysses
| | Posted on Monday, May 12, 2008 - 11:42 am: |
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I grew up in the south, with very little exposure to unions.
Dynasport- I'm the same way. OTOH I worked in Ohio for a couple of years and got a pretty good exposure to "how the other side lives". One thing I came away with is that I have never seen such a completely different mindset and view about things. I'm not saying bad or good either way- I'm just saying folks raised in a union environment and those of us who weren't almost have no common ground for discussion of these issues.
This really came home to me when I worked in Ohio in the early 1980's. Most of the employees were union except for management above a certain level. I got to know a lot of the guys and had my first day-to-day exposure to unions. I could see where the unions were a big value to those guys. Hell, working conditions on railroads in the early 1900's were the whole cause for the formation of trade unions in the U.S. IIRC.
I spent a lot of time in an office with a couple of secretaries (both of whom were ~20 years older than me). We'd talked a lot and cut up and joked and it seemed we had a lot in common and we got along well. Well, the railway employees went on strike and they were union and I wasn't. Even that wasn't a problem; the local union reps had no issues with us non-union types having to cross their picket lines and the strike was pretty low key. I had a lot of fun working 12 hour shifts servicing diesel locomotives for a few days.
After a week, then-President Reagan ordered the strike to end and sent both parties to binding arbitration and I think the settlement came out OK for both parties in the end. Here's where the real disconnect became apparent to me. A few days later, I was back in the office with the two secretaries when one of them said to the other- "Well, we should have known that bastard Reagan would do that after how he screwed the air traffic controllers."
I thought - "Damn, I can see you being mad about him ending this strike, but how do you get that he 'screwed' the air traffic controllers?" Anyone remember that strike? Air traffic controllers, government employees who signed an employment contract stating that they did not have the right to strike. I had previously been a government employee and remembered that rule pretty clearly. Reagan gave the ATC guys ample warning- you don't show up for work by such and such and you will be fired. Hell, it wasn't even an action on his part; he just let the existing rules be applied. I just couldn't get (and still can't get) how you could say "Reagan screwed them".
Anyway, my point in this long rambling account is that I think we think too differently to have a rational discussion about this. |
Cudajohn
| | Posted on Monday, May 12, 2008 - 12:06 pm: |
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I still find union bashing hard to swallow. -Old Biker
I know of some certain Teamsters that will readily bash the UAW fools.
As I said before, I grew up in an area where the GM plant (UAW) was the main employer and the car haulers were Teamster. Mom was UAW and Dad was and is a Teamster. He doesn't haul cars anymore thanks to the over zealousness of the UAW. They both will tell you straight up!
I have a few buddies who are IBEW, I don't see how a non-Union electrician can make it.
Also as I eluded to before, sometimes a Unionized labor force is needed (Wal-Mart) sometimes it isn't (Buell). Sometimes a Union screws all parties involved (UAW).
I've lived both sides and it is a pretty tired argument that some Super Duper Union guys make. Then you have the people who hate all unions. I've seen both sides so it is pretty easy for me to decipher the BS. |
Oldbiker
| | Posted on Monday, May 12, 2008 - 01:14 pm: |
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Cuda.....guess it comes down to "From whence you came"......your personal experiences,mine come from 66 yrs.in the "Big Apple".
Steve |
Ft_bstrd
| | Posted on Monday, May 12, 2008 - 05:22 pm: |
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+1 CJ |
Dalton_gang
| | Posted on Monday, May 12, 2008 - 08:39 pm: |
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"The training you'd get with a non-union shop cann't be nearly as extensive,"
www.ieci.org
I sat in an ibew classroom (not their apprenticeship) for a couple of months after I foolishly organized my company back in 2002.(got the hell out in 2004) They would not recognize my B.A.T. approved journeyman's license nor would they recognize my national masters license so I had to take some accelerated training classes to get my card.(the biggest joke) But anyway I can honestly tell you that the classes that I saw were easier and far less extensive than the IEC apprenticeship that I took. The ibew classes were a joke in comparison.(there was SOME good stuff though) The main reasons I say that is because they would dismiss the 2 1/2 hr long class after just 45 min EVERY class night, all questions on tests were word for word from the home work and the instructor told the class which questions were on the test EVERY time. I remember the homework was self reviewed and self graded also. There was lots of propaganda fed to the class.("work less-make more") You need to understand that approx 1/3 of the guys were too dumb to pass the class and had no business even being there in the first place.
I always wondered just how many of those guys could have passed an independent journeyman's test. I would guess 20% to 30%.
"I don't see how a non-Union electrician can make it."
I do just fine when local 1 isn`t taking a crap on me. They claim that I`m unfair, unskilled, uneducated, etc.... Then they try to take my work, my customers, and my employees.(sometimes successfully) Let me tell you whats not fair. It is not being considered for a project because I`m "non union". WTF! I`m a good, red blooded, tax paying, American citizen, and more than qualified for the work that I try to contract. |
Ferris_von_bueller
| | Posted on Monday, May 12, 2008 - 09:28 pm: |
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national masters license
Never heard of such a thing. Some states offer reciprocity but it's not nationwide. I possess a Maryland Master License but if I chose to move to California and open a shop I would need to take and pass the test given in that state.
"I don't see how a non-Union electrician can make it." I do just fine when local 1 isn`t taking a crap on me.
Yes but you're a contractor not a run-of-the-mill electrician. |
Dalton_gang
| | Posted on Monday, May 12, 2008 - 09:38 pm: |
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I took the Block and Ass. exam back in `96 and it was nationally recognized (at least back then)
I wear my tools and I drive a service truck every day and usually only run 2 - 4 electricians. So In my opinion I`m pretty much a run-of-the-mill electrician. |
Cudajohn
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 13, 2008 - 09:34 am: |
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"I don't see how a non-Union electrician can make it."
Here I was referring to a friend of mine that is working in Katrina damaged South Mississippi and NO who is competing against illegal immigrants and a labor pool who is not the brightest. It seems as though the big construction companies go for the Union or cheap/ignorant/dangerous laborers.
He was telling me about a casino he was on and the illegals were getting into the fuse panels or whatever (something extremely dangerous/stupid). The Union squashed it.
On jobs where the sparkies are working without that support it is up to him to extremely vigilant as to watch for dangers that shouldn't be on a job site.
Having said that, did my Mother need the Union to protect her extremely generous wage ($4?.00 an hour) and provide her the best medical/sickday/vacation pkg in ALL the land, all for inspecting windshields and rear glass' on cars (nothing more!) rolling out the plant? I think not. That stupid shi+ is what makes US manufacturers not profitable.
This is why I say there is and isn't a place for Unions.
Back 2 topic: Buell union? No, they don't need to be. There isn't a need for a Union and I appreciate that it makes the Buell a very competitively priced product. No thank you UAW. |
Rocketsprink
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 14, 2008 - 09:52 pm: |
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Yes! How dare people make a good wage for working! What are we thinking?! Only business owners and CEO's should make hundreds of thousands of millions of dollars. Employees don't deserve one cent more than what their very generous bosses think they deserve! And make sure you kiss their @sses every day because the bosses and owners and CEO's are the one's that fought to make sure you have insurance, workman's comp, good working conditions, and they sure as hell want to pay you enough and make sure you have a pension.  |
Rocketsprink
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 14, 2008 - 09:54 pm: |
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http://mywebtimes.com/archives/ottawa/display.php? id=358453 |
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