| Author | Message | ||
     Anonymous |
Zac your dealer can tell you if your bike is 'stuck' in closed loop. They can connect it to DTII and read it at idle or do a road test recording. | ||
| Zac4mac |
Thanks Anony - She's sitting at High Country HD/B awaiting a run on the DT II to send y'all data. Hope all goes well, I miss her. Doing some much needed work on my Shovelhead to keep me occupied till I get her back. Z | ||
| Jpfive |
Thanks, anony, for the clarification on the maps. It's good to have you pop in on these discussions. I've studied the electrical manual concerning EFI operation, and hoping there will be more in the service manual when it ships. Can you clarify for me what 'direct fuel modifier' means. In previous bikes that I have owned, neither of which had adaptive fuel values (or 'learning' in closed loop), the baro/temp sensors acted directly on the injectors (through the ECM). I understood this as a correction to the base map, as by a constant, adding/subtracting fuel as needed to adjust for density altitude. I think what you are saying is that this correction, driven by the BARO/IAT, is actually drawn from a map/table, then transmitted to the ECM. This makes sense to me, as it would be smoother. It was interesting to see how the Aprilia read from the a/f map, averaging a block of four map cells at a time. I had third-party software for that bike that allowed me to view this process on my laptop, and to adjust every parameter in the ECM, including timing maps, a/f maps, rev limiter, idle speed, and even the warmup sequence...! This was on a bike with no O2 sensors, no 'learning' mode and no closed loop operation. Don't worry, I have no desire to do this on the Buell, as the added complexity of closed loop and learning modes would only lead to a crop of unintended consequences. Thanks again for you participation on the board. Jack | ||
| Zac4mac |
Got Loretta back today. The shop ran a bunch of tests that the Mother Ship requested, said everything looks right but AFV. AFV still at 100 F&R, still running rough. The tech said he did have fun, taking an extended test ride, he thought she ran smoothly. I told him I'd let them both ride her again if she ever learns the altitude and see what they're supposed to run like. Guess I just have to ride the bejeeeeezus out of her. She runs closed loop once up to temp, O2, baro, temp sensors are fine etc. It's hard to enjoy the ride, knowing how smooth she was. Something IS happening, she smoothes out every now and then, and I get hopeful. Then it's back to being a popcorn machine. I've got almost 300 miles since the reflash, I'll shoot for 300+ miles tomorrow of different riding conditions. Hope she learns tomorrow. Z | ||
| Dre99gsx |
In the automotive world, when you reset the ecu (like killing power to it for more than 30 minutes.. ), all fuel trim values should reset to 0 and the car relearns all the trims again. Not possible with the 11? | ||
| Zac4mac |
Loretta is a fine girl, but just a little dim. The only trouble I have had, in 7300 miles is the slow learning issue. When she knows what elevation she's at she runs so smooth it brings tears to my eyes. Yes the reflash reset the AFV to 100 and it's still that way after 300 miles of trying to hold a steady speed with little or no load. I'm gonna go out tomorrow and enjoy as much Springtime scenery as I can find and hope she learns in the process. I guess it's like finding a good woman, it happens when you least expect it, not when you're trying your hardest. Z | ||
| Helicon |
Zac, let me get this straight ... So the bike is still not running properly, and the dealership has not corrected the issue, so the problem is yours to deal with? | ||
| Zac4mac |
There's really not much that they CAN do. Nobody outside BMC knows how the ECM does its thing, except for vague descriptions. All I want is a solid roadmap to elevation correction. Without that, all I can do is ride and hope I "pick the lock accidentally". All I expected from High Country, this round, was to run the tests BMC asked for, not try to fix anything. They did that and got Loretta back to me ASAP. I'm gonna make a run up to Laramie, over to Cheyenne and back home. 3-4 thousand foot elevation change and a variety of road speeds. Hopefully that'll get the AFV to adapt, we'll see. I'm sure I'll be back in contact with BMC this week, regardless. As Neil says Time2Ride Z | ||
| Helicon |
Zac, I've got to say you're pretty upbeat about the whole situation, and I hope you get it figured out soon. But I have to say, at the very least, I would be very frustrated with the situation and the lack of any real answers. | ||
| Zac4mac |
I am frustrated, but I'm also impressed with BMC's personal involvement in the issue. We are on great terms and both of us are pushing for a resolution. Communication lines are open and working. Every time I think I'm being a pest, they call ME with updated info. Buell is an amazing Company, I'm impressed. Z | ||
| No_rice |
hmm, my afv when i looked the other day was still at 100 front and rear also. somethings seem better after the reflash, but somethings dont. i dont remember it having the little bit of rough run it does now even at 6000rpm cruise. it has been REAL windy here lately so i am trying to blame it on just the wind pushing things around and not the bike chugging. so i just keep paying attention to how it runs. | ||
| Zac4mac |
Back from a 200+ mile ride - no go. 517 miles since the reflash and AFVs are STILL at 100. I'll be on the phone in the morning. Z (Message edited by zac4mac on May 11, 2008) | ||
| No_rice |
so what does anyone elses say? i never tried riding it in diagnostic mod until today and obviously it wont let you do that. | ||
| Hayabusa |
I got my letter about getting the reflash...reading all the responses has me torn...oh the choices. Will the bike be better or worse? | ||
| Sycojomo |
If you remember my tale of woe; serious throttle lag, boiling fuel and general performance similar to a farm tractor. And of course this my only vehicle. I am pleased to report two days of solid sport bike performance since getting the bike back on Saturday. So what's different? If I understand correctly, I now have a re-designed throttle body assembly and some changes to the fuel line. The new throttle bodies/throttle linkage seems to have completely cured the throttle lag. The bike responds to throttle inputs with the correct amount of power in a completely predictable manner. I have enjoyed stop and go traffic once for about 30 minutes with an approximate air temperature of 85 degrees and didn't have any fuel issues, but I will continue to observe. I can't say enough good things about Kelly, Jeremy, Ben, Adam and the crew at Carolina Coast HD/Buell. They went far beyond standard customer service. Kelly not only listened carefully to me and understood the problems; he dug into the bike's systems and found the root causes. I understand that they used photos, data, and video in their efforts to communicate with Buell. This is my third Buell, but several times during the last few months I have wondered if I should have bought a more proven foreign sport bike. I remain a fan. As with most first year bikes, new issues will probably rear their ugly heads. This doesn't worry me, as I am confident in the customer experience I have enjoyed. | ||
| Jpfive |
Syco, very glad to hear that you are now enjoying the bike! Did they reflash it also? Jack | ||
| Slypiranna |
Redesigned throttle body? I'd really love to read that confirmed. Any one out there have any inside information regarding this? pm me please...mm | ||
| Slypiranna |
At the risk of getting blasted by many...I feel it need to be published here as to what I've been working on and what hdwrench MIGHT have been questioning prior to removal in archives. I purchased my 11 new, in Jan. It has had the new reflash. 3800+ miles on the clock and currently at sea level. She has always been un-ridable below 4k rpm. Being told not to ride below this rpm by many, was not acceptable to me as this is a street bike. I have driven a few in 20+ years of riding. After exhausting all other means, I first disconnected the throttle noid, via cable only, at the t body...noted improvement but still not satisfied. This was prior to reflash. After reflash...and four days...the LFVs made an adjustment. I had to force riding the bike...and she hated every minute of it...below 4k rpm, in an attempt to make her go closed loop and adjust...this based solely on what little I know of this ecu's operation and parameters. The LFVs went from the new 100/100 to 105/105 at the end of the fourth day. The bike did run better down low but still not as smooth as I wished. On the fifth day, I broke out the old timing light...stripped the top end down to open butterflys and viewed in a strobe affect, what might be going on. With that, I witnessed a very slight flutter, due...in my opinion, to the spring loaded design of this t body assembly to work with the noid...all without the rider feeling such in its operation. I then locked out the spring function altogether and have been testing with a fully one to one throttle to butterfly actuation. Results were immediate. It is totally a different machine...still not perfect but much much more improved all around. BUT, NOT LEGAL FOR A STREET BIKE. Within a day, the LFVs came back down to 100/100...and I believe that more adjustments will follow, based upon this learning curve. The flat spot that I always had at rapid acceleration is completely gone in this testing...and I mean gone. The hunting for fixed rpm is gone. I can now hold an rpm, out of gear or in gear without any deviation. While the 3000-3500 rpm tach needle dance is still witnessed from time to time, its deviation is slowly diminishing as I continue this test. I ride 30+ miles back and fourth currently to the shop daily and as of today, day seven...always an improvement in the way the lower end fueling is responding and improving. I have a fast dual wideband on this bike for verification and testing, as I'm doing unrelated back to back testing for an aftermarket exhaust...just can't get to that point because of all this!  It should be noted that the content in this posting is for testing, off road and or racing purposes, design information for marketing and or diagnostics purposes only and should not be attempted by someone not qualified in doing so. I am qualified, just in case any of your are wondering. Nothing I've entered here is a recommendation...this is simply what I have found on my own personal 1125 through continued non dealer, diagnostics and testing. By the way, everything on this bike has always run great above 4k and to the limiter ...but that is not what in town...light to light...street city riding is, on a street bike. Montgomery Markel | ||
| Xb9 |
Thanks for sharing your knowledge, Sly. Very good info. | ||
| Sycojomo |
Jpfive, good question. My issues appeared before the ECM update was available, and persisted after it had been re-flashed, thus the thread title. This created a very brief moment where we mistakenly thought the throttle issues were fixed by the ECM update. Based on what I observed very briefly in the shop I believe Sly to be correct in diagnosing the root cause to be the interaction of the spring, solenoid, and butterfly valve shaft. The original throttle body assembly from my bike has been sent to Buell for analysis. Also, I would like to re-iterate that the major symptom I was experiencing was a total lack of engine response when rotating the throttle after the butterfly valves had closed. If I continued to rotate the throttle, at some unknown point near full throttle the butterfly valves would break open and the engine would respond in all it's 1125cc glory. You could say the butterfly valves would remain stuck closed during subtle thottle inputs. All of this is now fixed by the adjustments to the aforementioned items. | ||
| Slypiranna |
sycojomo, Am I reading your post correctly by you being happy with all the transients/throttle response and call your 11 totally happy? Please give us more insite to your riding style and the rpms that you run in. Your information is more than valuable and appreciated here. Thank you for your time. | ||
| Jpfive |
"..thus the thread title.." Doh. Thanks for being kind to me in your reply, syco. I find my attention span getting shorter as I get older, especially on the bad web. After two pages , and 82 posts, I forget what the heck the thread is all about...  Jack | ||
| Xb9 |
What Sycojomo describes before his throttle body replacement makes me nervous....I don't like the idea of not having complete control of those butterflies via my throttle hand. My noid cable has been disconnected for a while with improvement and last night I locked up the linkage where the spring is for the noid, we'll see if I notice an improvement. Based on Sly's post I anticipate an improvement. If anything I have more piece of mind. All this because of some ridiculously low EPA noise regs. PITA. | ||
| Blake |
The old Helmholtz airbox was an elegant solution to the intake tract noise issue. I wonder if a layered noise/vibration attenuating inner and outer airbox cover would be effective enough a solution so that the solenoid system could be scrapped. Basically you sandwich a layer of gummy adhesive between two facesheets. The gummy layer of adhesive is designed to prevent the transmission of problematic acoustic frequencies. Or maybe an active sound canceling system with a little speaker inside the airbox that only activates when required, same as the current solenoid. Or rather than involving the actual throttle, add a separate solendoid operated valve (slide). Anything would seem preferable to adding complexity to the engine itself. | ||
| Sycojomo |
Sly, I am happy. Around town I let my RPMs drop to 3k every now and then, but I try to ride over 3.5k. In first gear I do notice some flat spots in the torque curve, but I've never ridden a bike whose flat spots weren't revealed by first gear. I usually run in first gear up to about 35 mph, then probably cruise between lights in second. In the last three weeks I moved to the coast from the mountains. The Dragon was only 45 minutes from my old place, so my riding style used to involve lots of leaning. On this bike I usually ran the Gap in second gear the whole time. I don't try to pick up much speed on the straights as I'm a big fan of The Pace. There is a possibility I might get on the track this coming Monday. Cross your fingers! Cheers. | ||
| Slypiranna |
Thank you for answering my question Sycojomo. Glad your happy with your bike now. As for the tach needle dancing issue...it is gone now on my bike. It turns out this has nothing to do with anything other than the actual vibration mounting arrangement. I reached down today while testing again, touched the lower left corner of the tach face and the needle stabilized! After which, I quickly returned to the shop, inserted two round rubber strips in the upper corners to prove this. Done...NO more tach needle dancing, anywhere...and this has had me wondering since new... Positive progress, no matter how little, is nice to behold. | ||
| Bertman |
I zip tied my linkage on Sunday so the butterfly's can not move contrary to the cable input. I have had the solenoid cable removed and the ecm re-flashed which I think really did help my bikes behavior, especially the warm start issue. What I want to know is if any one else still has a problem with lower rpm (3500 - 4500) no load cruising. My bike has always had, and still has, a surging that is not smooth. It is more annoying than a real problem, but I still don't think it should be like this. I thought maybe the butterflies because of the vacuum were moving open/closed on their own and not being consistent, but taking that out of the equation it still is not steady. | ||
| Zac4mac |
Mine, #00154, was rough at first but after a while smoothed out. I got her mid-December and live just north of Denver. I didn't have any problems other than hard starting in the cold - some mornings were in the low 20s F, once it was 14˚ F. The end of March, I rode down to visit family in South Texas and while I was at lower elevation, she ran very rough again. Once I returned to Colorado, she ran smooth as silk again... until the reflash. Since then, it's like riding a popcorn machine. When the ECM adjusts for the elevation you're at, the motor is very smooth, even at 2000 rpm. The spring loaded throttle linkage is another issue. Zack | ||
| Xb9 |
I still have the 3k - 3.5k surging, removed the noid cable and locked the linkage. Haven't had the reflash yet. Feels like it's too lean right there. If someone comes out with a tuner soon, I'll be putting the wideband 02 controller on and adjusting the maps in that range. I'm sure it could be smoothed out. Anyone know if the ECMSpy guys or Technoresearch are working on one? | ||
| Jpfive |
Ran through a tank of gas after the reflash today. Here are my impressions: The bike is smooth at all power settings, except that it has a slight surge in the 3200-3600 rpm range. I was hesitant to even have the reflash done, since my bike had been running pretty well as it was. The 3.5k surge was not there before the flash. So, as far as engine smoothness goes, good after the reflash, but no better than before for me. Throttle response OTOH, is improved since the flash. The on/off transition is smooth at all power settings. Plus 1 for the flash. Fuel mileage is improved, which is one thing that many have asked about. I noticed right away that instantaneous mileage figures were running 2-3 mpg better than what I had been observing before the flash. I had 37mpg on the full tank today, which included running time in the shop for the flash, and also for a tire change. I would have expected less before the flash, probably in the 34-35mpg range. AFV values immediately after the flash were running 89F and 95R, whereas these had been at 100 before. TP adjustment was also off. Both sorted themselves out during the run today. I get a full 2% - 100% throttle range again, and the AFV values are back to 100 F&R. The bike is throwing an intermittent code since the flash, relating to the left coolant fan. This is the side that now runs only part time, so I expect that they will need to tweak the patch so that what is now normal, does not continue to throw a code. It causes the check engine light to illuminate on hot starts, which goes out after a few miles of running. Cold starts do not set the code. Overall - an improvement IMHO. I notice no loss of power, but improvement in throttle response and mileage. I am even more happy with the bike now, and recommend the flash. Jack |
