| Author | Message | ||
     Blake |
If it's under warranty and fails either compression or leakdown, it could be free. See Nallin Racing for their product info. If you are not experienced in the seal replacement procedure you might do better, especially since it's free, to have your shop perform that task. Letting your catch can fill with liquids could be what caused excessive pressure to rupture the seal. Yes, the pressure can be significant, the breather circuit is a very important system for the health of your engine. It needs to be free and clear all the time. | ||
| M2me |
Here is something weird about breathers and oil puking on my bike. On Thursday I was supposed to meet some family members for dinner near Southdale. From downtown Minneapolis where I work it is 9 miles. The traffic was so bad it took me AN HOUR to get there! I could smell oil burning on the headers and when I finally parked I saw that there was oil dripping off the bottom of the air cleaner. There was oil on the cam gear cover. Nowhere near as bad as mbsween's photos though. Saturday morning I opened up the air cleaner and wiped up all the oil residue in there. I put about 120 miles on on Saturday. On Sunday morning I ran a clean rag along the bottom of the air cleaner. Dry as a bone! I then put on about 180 miles and again wiped the bottom of the air cleaner. Clean! Why the heck did it puke so bad during that stop and go riding, mostly idling, of only 9 miles? From what I've read it is supposed to puke more during periods of high speed, high rpm riding. Thursday evening I was lucky if I ever got above 3000 rpms. The weekend riding was not high speed, around 70 mph but it didn't puke at all in 300 miles. Anyway, just another weird thing about breathers and oil pukeage. I've got some breather hose and a filter and plan on routing the breathers out of the intake. | ||
| Bluzm2 |
John, Switch to the Bolt rocker box covers. The problem almost completely goes away. Brad | ||
| Ara |
M2me, Could be your oil level was a bit too high during your short-distance high-temp ride, and that having puked out the excess the engine is happier now. Question for the group: Does oil expand in volume very much when it gets hot? If so, this might also explain M2me's experience. | ||
| Mbsween |
Hey, dumb question. Had the front rocker gasket go, so I had the plastic off while watching the bike idle. The breather (yodude puke pipe) constantly is pumping out air. I guess thats why they call it a breather! Anyways I was wondering if thats normal, I can feel pressure if I cover the puke pipe's outlets. It has what seems to be a small airfilter on the top of the pipe. Thanks Matt | ||
| Blake |
M2me, I have a couple ideas that might explain your observations... 1. If you oil contained moisture, when said moisture reaches its boiling point inside the engine, it will tend to ejct itself plus any ambient oil mist forcefully out the breather into the airbox. Once boiled off, the spewage of water and oil mist from the crankcase breather will cease. 2. If the engine is running slowly it will not have enough pull to suck the oil mist/spewage into the intake/combustion-chamber, it will instead drip and puddle inside the airbox. Either or both of the above could contribute to the excess oil you witnessed. Matt, Your Buell's crankcase breather should expel any blow-by, or exhaust/combustion gasses that leak past the rings/cylinder-wall. That is it's purpose. No worries. | ||
| Mbsween |
Blake, you the only one that answers questions?  Thanks, I just never really paid attention, it seems to make a lot less pressure when warmed up. Matt | ||
| M2me |
Blake, I also had been thinking about idea #2. I have been monitoring it and that seems to be a big factor. Stop and go riding in traffic results in more oil in my airbox. Out on the open road I get almost none at all. | ||
| Dwike |
Quick question. I have a 98 S1W (actually pick it up in 9 days 8 hours and 56 minutes)and I am looking to put a K&n filter setup that a guy has made for his X1 fuel injected buell and i was wondering if a venturi ring part # 29719-88 will bolt to a 98 S1? If not, does the carburetor have a flange? If so, what is the outside diameter? Thanks in advance! Danny | ||
| Blackcatracing |
Does any one have the part numbers to switch the rocker boxes on an X1 to the Bolt type? Thanks | ||
| Joem |
17605-00YB Rocker cover, front head $39 17642-02A Rocker cover, rear head $39 17606-00YA Grommet, Viton, Black $2.95 each (need 2) 17607-00Y PCV Valve, $6.90 each (need 2) 868A Hex Socket Button Head Screw, $4.75 each (need 2) http://www.dcbrag.org/Rocker.htm | ||
| Orion |
Hello All, Sorry for a post without much research first, but I'm on the road and at a house with a slow connection. My M2 started blowing what I believe to be transmission oil out the overflow tube that runs from the top of the transmission out above the rear tire. At first I thought I just overfilled it, so I've dropped the level quite a bit but it's still doing it. I'm 600 miles in to a 1600 mile ride, so I'd like to do something now. I made the mistake of putting a small plastic bottle over the tube to prevent the oil from dropping on the tire. That just pressurized things and it ended up blowing oil up the clutch cable an out onto the tank.  I'm going to work on it this afternoon (not leaving until tomorrow). Any help would be appreciated. FYI - I'm not sure if it's related, but I'm running a forcewinder with a small catch can on the crank breater tubes too, which I'm about to cut some vents in since I know I should have had some mechanism to let the air flow through it too. A handful of stupid mistakes are resulting in a damn messy bike. TIA, J.D. | ||
| Mikej |
JD, Where are you currently located? What is your destination? You may be able to pre-appointment work at a dealership, or at least have parts waiting for you. Someone (Newfie I believe) just went through this (I think). If it is the main seal there is a new one out that also requires a new tool to install it, but most reasonable dealerships should be set with that by now. Your profile shows you in Idaho, are you heading north, south, east, or west? Ping the Rider Assistence Network to find people along your route. | ||
| Mikej |
http://isk-institute.com/henrik/Shaft_Seal/FrameSet.htm | ||
| Phillyblast |
Henrik, "black iron" is generally used in gas piping  (I work for the gas co.) | ||
| Reepicheep |
That was me, it is over in the knowledge vault. I used a piece of thin walled copper plumbing piping from Lowes, about two inches long. The diameter was just a hair tight, so I took a hacksaw and split the two inch length of pipe lengthwise. You can then "stretch" it open, creating maybe a quarter inch gap. It then fits perfectly. The trick is you want it to fit inside a groove that is inside the seal, not pressing on the edges of the seal. Note that the bike is still waiting some other key transmission parts, so no validation yet that this method worked perfectly (though it looks like it worked fine). Actually, getting the thing is pretty easy, it is getting the old one out without hacking everything up that was kicking my butt. | ||
| Reepicheep |
Thought more about this. The tool Henrik got also does the seating depth correctly. Mine does not, and looking at Henriks shots shows I seated mine WAY too deep (as I recall, will look tonight to see if this is true). Time will tell if this causes "issues". Secondly, as for getting the old seal out, I can think of some things I should have tried. I probably should have tried to wedge a wooden point between the seal and the crankcase, to fold in that lip slightly, so I could get needle nose pliars on it to work it out. Once you get the lip folded in you can grab and yank, until then you just have this tiny folded over strip that did not do anything but bend when I grabbed it. That crankcase metal is soft as butter around there, so anything harder then plastic will likely leave a goudge. How did you get it out, Henrik? | ||
| Orion |
Mikej, I'm in Northern Montana right now (above Kalispell). I only have 2 days of riding left to get back home, so I think I'm going to tollerate it for now. I put some holes in my crank breather catch can (not sure how that could affect my tranny overflow) and ran it up the road 0-90 a few times and it seemed to just clear out the remaining oil that was left in the clutch cable and then be OK. We'll see how it does tomorrow. Anyone know what causes this? How high do you fill your tranny, until the oil touches the pully, or just below it? J.D. | ||
| Kcbill |
You blew the crank seal. Not a bad job to repair if you had the tools. You will have to go to dealer and get it done. It sounds like it's pretty bad. I don't think you should wait if you can help it. | ||
| Henrik |
Bill; I can't remember exactly, but knowing how I usually work, I would probably have started out with a thin blade small screw driver and then a pair of vise grip pliers to yank with. However, I seem to recall something about finally removing the central spacer first. That spacer is not attached in any way, and should provided you can get a grip on it, slide right out and give you plenty of access to the seal itself. J.D.; I fill the primary until the oil almost touches the clutch spring - keep in mind that the bike needs to be vertical when checking. Henrik | ||
| Reepicheep |
Thanks Henrik... I looked at the seal I installed tonight... the good news? Not that deeply set in. The bad news? That central spacer was *not* put in first. Do-oh! (forehead slap) I will pick up a new seal tomorrow, and try, try again. Given all the rest of the transmission problems I am currently in a death struggle with, all I can do about this one is just have a good laugh. It's a good exercise in just chilling out and relaxing, even if the bike does end up down for a week or two. Replacing the crank seal is not a big job if you take your time and think about what you are doing... unlike Me, who did the job twice to do it once (and was either secure enough or foolish enough to do so publicly on the web  "> ) You will need an impact wrench or a monster breaker bar, some mondo sized sockets, and a big torque wrench, and some scrap aluminum to build a locking bar (though I have heard wrapping a towel in there works). Bill edited by reepicheep on July 28, 2003 | ||
| Mikej |
JD, There used to be a guy on the support list who was up near Kalispell. Unless that's who's place you're visiting. ===== "removing the central spacer first" "That central spacer was *not* put in first" Reepi, I think you and Henrik just said the same thing. Find the old proverbial milk crate and do some noggin scratchin' before proceeding. I may be wrong though, look in the service manual and see if it shows the proper insertion sequence. | ||
| Reepicheep |
No question, Henrik is right, thats what I meant to say... in the midst of my grocery list of "serious" transmission issues I am trying to fix, I decided to just "throw in" a new crank seal while it is all apart. Just another reminder to myself that you can't rush this kind of work, and that rushing easy jobs just makes them hard jobs. I chewed up the place where the seal seats being sloppy getting the old one out, and installed the new one wrong by trying to rush it in during a short window of opportunity. I'll get it right sooner or later  | ||
| Mikej |
I think you did get it right. Re-read my quotes of what you and Henrik wrote, then think "first in last out, last in first out". How did you install it? I'm guessing the way is: spacer | seal | engine Does it look like this? http://isk-institute.com/henrik/Shaft_Seal/pages/08_new_seal_on.htm Installed per: http://isk-institute.com/henrik/Shaft_Seal/pages/04_instructions.htm I think I'll just shut up now until I've done a few of these myself before I confuse anyone. | ||
| Reepicheep |
No confusion, you are exactly right, I just did it wrong. I did it... or rather tried to do it... by putting the seal into the engine *before* putting the spacer back on the shaft. The way it is supposed to work (I am pretty sure) is to put the spacer in there, and push the seal over that. The seal will then seat simultaneously on the inside the crankcase hole and the outside of that spacer. I could probably carefully work the spacer in there with the seal installed and intact, but think it would be safer to just pull the existing seal and slap in a new seal for $5 or whatever. I think I seated it just a hair too deeply anyway. I started just seeing if my "special tool" (copper pipe split lengthwise) would work, and it worked so well I just threw the seal in without really thinking it through... 30 seconds of effort. Henriks pages make it pretty clear, I was just not paying attention. It was too easy, I was too distracted, and in too much of a hurry, and it tricked me | ||
| Henrik |
Bill; don't worry, I mangled a seal as well before getting it right I tried to pound the seal in using a piece of PVC tubing  I got the seal in ok, but thought it needed to go deeper ... so what do you do??? You keep pounding until the fraying edges of the "used-to-be-new" seal tells you something is wrong  Henrik | ||
| Aaron |
A small piece of plastic, for example the end of a plastic wire zip-tie, is useful for getting the spacer in when the seal is already in place. | ||
| Fgoodspeed |
Hello folks. This is my first time to post and I'll get right to the point. I own a 1998 Buell S1 Lighnting, maxed out on mods, extras and billet everything. About a month ago the bike started to smoke (white in color) out of the crankcase breather and drip a little more oil than usually AND when traveling at about 40 plus MPH the oil would seem like it was pouring out the crankcase breather filter. My first thought was too much oil since I had just changed it a week or so prior to this occuring so I check the oil level. I have an aftermarket aluminum oil tank which doesn't have a dip stick so I've learn to judge the amount of oil by sticking my finger down the whole. If the oil just barely gets on the end of my finger then I know it's just right, which is darn near close to the 2 quarts in the tank and 4oz. in the oil filter which is what the manual specifies. Having this out of the way I decided to bring the bike into the local HD dealer to have them look at it. Once I explained the problem the head mechanic seemed to know right away what the problem was. He said that it looks like the aftermarket crankcase breather outlet (hoses going in to one filter toward the rear of the engine) wasn't sufficiently breathing and causing oil to collect in to spots of the hose and burn off and spit up from time to time. He didn't have a reason as to why it smelled like fuel so I didn't asked because afterall he's the pro and he knows what he's talking about, right? Anyway, they ran a knew hose from the crankcase breathers and BAM.... it was still doing the same thing His solution, start tearing down the heads to find the root of the white smoke and excessive oil coming from the breathers. He told me that at this point it looks like it could be that the piston rings had cracked or worn out and the pistons would possible need to be replaced and the heads reworked, and the cost would be at least around $800 just for labor. I basically told him that I didn't have the money to pay for that kind of work and that I would just take it home and let it sit until I was able to do so. Well I started asking around and almost every question that has come from anyone I've talked to about this was "did they offer to do a leak down or compression test before they just offered to start tearing down the engine?" The answer is no they didn't. Which makes me curious and what brings me to this board. I'm in hopes that someone will be able to tell me that there could be another problem other then this (which to me is the worst case senerio) and perhaps give me some more tips for trouble shooting this issue. I was told by someone that it could be that the umbrella valves might be failing and letting too much oil through. Could this be true and if so are they easy to replace? Oh yeah, also I removed the spark plugs this evening to take a look at them and they were both sooty and black which to me didn't seem quit right but if anyone could elaborate on this it would be so greatly appreciated. Thanks for taking the time to read this rather lenthy post but I'm reaching a frustration point and would like to resolve the problem if possible without paying and arm and a leg to have HD do it. Fred | ||
| M2me |
Fred, I'm not an expert on engines and there are people here a lot more qualified than me but I would suggest having compression and leakdown testing done. The mechanic is probably right that the rings are worn but you might as well have it tested before tearing apart the top end. | ||
| S2pengy |
Great info here... Is there a minimum size of the catch can other than it affecting the frequency of the need to drain it????? As long as a breather is also attached pressure should not be a problem???? |
