| Author | Message | ||
     M2nc |
Tell that to Hayden. Rocket you are avoiding me. I never said the 1098 will be handed its hat by the 1125R. I said with available data there is no way to determine a clear winner before heads up testing. The 1125R has advantages over the 1098. Though the 1098 seems to have peak horsepower, by all available tests the 1125R has the mid-range. The 1125R though loosing the span, retains an advantage all the way up north of 8K rpm. The Helicon could have been tuned for peak numbers too, but it wasn't. The 1098 is no lighter and I haven't seen evidence that it can cut through the air better than the 1125R. Top speed numbers are within single digits from all claims of the 1125R and the 1098S. So I say it again. If you look at the best 1098 numbers versus the best 1125R numbers, the 1098 has a peak 3rwhp advantage and double digit rwhp disadvantage from 3K-8.5K rpm. Now I am not saying that two different dynos across the pond from each other should be taken as the absolute true, but there are no hard facts to dispute it. Admit it, you're bias toward Ducati and that is the basis to your claims. | ||
| Spike |
Really man, don't you just get tired of avoiding the facts? Wouldn't it be easier for you to just deal honestly with this stuff? We're not talking about just two dyno charts. We're talking about every dyno chart of the 1098 available thus far. It's not like there are two and they both contradict each other. Every single one shows the power falling off through the midrange. How much speculation does it entail to extrapolate the data to the rest of the fleet? Are we really to expect that every 1098 will have its own unique power delivery? Using that logic, how can you say that all other 1098s will perform the same as the one you rode? | ||
| Xb984r |
Over on Motorcycle-USA.com they are about to have a review called the Superbike Smackdown,seems they invited Buell,but Buell seemed reluctant to go up against the Big 4.They did say they will be putting the 1125R up against the 1098 and a possibly a GSXR-750 sometime in March. | ||
| Rocketman |
It's not like there are two and they both contradict each other. Every single one shows the power falling off through the midrange. How much speculation does it entail to extrapolate the data to the rest of the fleet? Did I miss something? Where are these more than two 1098 dyno charts? MCN published a small pic of one, but you all dismissed 144HP as that of a cherry picked bike. There's another linked above to a forum that shows 150 odd with pipe and ecu. Then there is the US and the Australian charts posted and linked to here. That's four 1098's in total. One was tuned. One was dismissed as cherry picked. That leaves two. Sure is a great way of extrapolating data for the few thousand sold so far. Rocket | ||
| Rocketman |
(stock, me thinks not!!) It's an S too Neil. I was really talking about the whole 1098 experience. Read any road tests? No one mentions a flat spot for any 1098 (stock) test I've read thus far. To quote MCN "On the 1098 a blast through a country lane is an epic cocktail of intense speed, spinning rear tyres on cold damp tarmac, being pinned back hard into the rear seat hump under full acceleration and full-on power wheelies over third gear crests". Incidentally, MCN's test of the 1098 was back to back with the 848, of which they recorded 122rwhp. Of course, the 848 was cherry picked too. Rocket | ||
| Rocketman |
Rocket you are avoiding me. Sorry, I wasn't aware of it. I never said the 1098 will be handed its hat by the 1125R. I said with available data there is no way to determine a clear winner before heads up testing. And I say the bench race favours the 1098 massively. The 1125R has advantages over the 1098. Maybe on a camping trip, I grant you. Though the 1098 seems to have peak horsepower, by all available tests the 1125R has the mid-range. The 1125R though loosing the span, retains an advantage all the way up north of 8K rpm. The Helicon could have been tuned for peak numbers too, but it wasn't. Ok here's the way it is today. You want to stump up dyno charts of peak performance, then state those figures represent the riding characteristics of the bike dynod. That is not the case. Dyno testing for peak numbers is generally done by getting the bike settled at a base RPM of say 4k in 4th gear, then wacking the throttle wide full open. Such does not represent the way the bike is set-up to run at say 30% or 40% or 50% throttle opening, so the dyno has no clue as to how much the throttle is open and what the ECU is doing. With manufacturers concentrating more on mid range power and emission targets, and electronics becoming ever more sophisticated, it's nigh on impossible to measure with a dyno what exactly the power delivery is at any given throttle opening other than WFO. That the 1098 is a superbike by anyone's admission, and the 1125 is not specifically a superbike by Erik's own admission, does anyone really believe the 1125 is a sometimes possible contender to a 1098? Get outta here. The 1098 is no lighter and I haven't seen evidence that it can cut through the air better than the 1125R. The 1098 is regarded as anorexic at 173kg, and the evidence to its slipperiness are confirmed just by looking at it. But of course, you'll require the wind tunnel data despite Erik careful to point out the 1125 has the best aero for "this type of bike". Of course, I doubt that personally, but what do I know. I'm just a constr..... sorry, Saab mechanic. Top speed numbers are within single digits from all claims of the 1125R and the 1098S. No they are not. 171mph was bantered around loosely from some Daytona tyre test of a restricted to 116rwhp 1125. No one, despite my asking several hundred times, produced evidence to support such wild claims. I have yet to come across any other tested top speed figure for an 1125. Have you? Rocket | ||
| Rocketman |
Bigot. Funny how you don't pipe up such comments when your fellow countrymen are taking a pop at me with their bigoted comments surrounding our country's shared histories. Hypocrite. Rocket | ||
| 46champ |
I have a question? Rocket do you ever sleep or work? Every time I look in here you've just made a post. I'm not complaining just wondering. | ||
| Vagelis46 |
"The 1098 is regarded as anorexic at 173kg" PB recorded a 209kg weight with a full tank, for a ready to ride 1098. At the same time a GSXR1000K7 was 213kg. 173kg ?? | ||
| Rocketman |
173kg is Ducatis claimed weight. I assume that's dry weight, not fuelled up ready to ride. 173 kilograms = 381.399714 pounds Rocket | ||
| Socoken |
80 lbs of gas, coolant, a battery, and oil? Fuel is 6lbs per gallon, Ducati claims 4.1 gal fuel capacity, so that accounts for about 25 pounds of the 80. Oil is lighter yet, but I couldnt find any figures on capacity, but I would say no more than five lbs of oil. I couldnt find a coolant capacity for the Duc either, but Id venture a guess its less than a gallon, or near it, accounting for AT MOST 10 lbs. that leaves 40 pounds of battery. Seems high to me. Why is the 1125r being compared to a bike it was not intended to compete against? | ||
| Rocketman |
Why is the 1125r being compared to a bike it was not intended to compete against? Because the 1098 is regarded by many as the best V twin sportsbike in production today. You'd think some would have more sense. Rocket | ||
| Bobup |
Some of us DO have more sense.......that is why WE believe the 1125R to be the Best V-Twin Sportbike EVER! | ||
| Sheridan_bueller |
Rocket, you should have said it this way... Because the 1098 WAS regarded by Some as the best V twin sportbike in production. But now we have the all new Buell 1125R that is putting a new face on what sportbikes should be. There, doesn't that sound better. Glad I could help. Your kings english seems to be getting a little dated. JJ | ||
| Metalstorm |
Can some one define "best"? I'm thinking what is best for some is not best for others. i.e. For some, "best" is the one with the biggest hit or "rush" of power that makes you scream "holy shite!". For others, "best" is the one with the flat predictable torque curve that lets you concentrate on lines & position & not worry about losing the rear when the big hit of power bites you. If you all continue to argue which one is best i just think that first, you all need to agree first on what "best" actually means  What is best for me probably won't be best for you If this is simply about which one is better on a track, how about if we wait until they actually go head to head before bashing Ducs & Buells? Poor bikes, they never did nothing to no one and here they are being abused cyber style  This rain needs to stop so I can go back to work *sigh* | ||
| Slaughter |
Fish, chicken, or Beef Which is best? (the vegetarians will of course object to the answer) | ||
| Metalstorm |
Currently with it being winter & all, Top Ramen is best | ||
| Freezerburn |
Slaughter Fish, chicken, beef or vegetarian? There, I fixed it for you. Be sure to know a few vegetarians. They will be the other other other white meat. Baby back, baby back... | ||
| Spatten1 |
The cuter the face, the better the taste. I especially like eating the animals I kill and butcher myself! Back on topic, Rotax makes great engines. The comparos will be fun. We need to remember not to be too defensive, as all reviews seem to start and end with the negatives. Just the fact that a Buell will be compared to a liquid cooled Ducati is a coup. I'm stoked that Buell is finally in the "big leagues". Sean has you guys wrapped, entertaining him day and night. | ||
| Freezerburn |
}Sean has you guys wrapped, entertaining him day and night. Yep, I can see it, Pimp Daddy Rocket wearing a stone of gold on Badweb cruisin' for bitches. Yo, I got another one. Suckers. | ||
| Reepicheep |
If the 1098 is the best VTwin sportbike in production, then the 1098S must be even better ;) | ||
| Freezerburn |
Don't forget the 1098R. It is besterer. | ||
| Arillius13 |
Only problem with the 1098 being the best V-Twin is well, It's actually a L-Twin. | ||
| Rocketman |
I think the answer to the question about which is best, is in the question itself. Why is the 1125r being compared to a bike it was not intended to compete against? If you were to ask me though, the 1098 is bettered in looks by any 916 derivative, but the first and second year production 916's are the dogs bollocks originals. Rocket | ||
| Rocketman |
Sean has you guys wrapped, entertaining him day and night. Ah yes, but there's gold in them there hills! Rocket | ||
| Ccryder |
Ah Sean, thanks for direct and clear answer. I do like the 916 but, the 1125r has a look to it's own, fortunately. Since I don't want a high maint. bike, I'll stick to the 1125r (just to stir the pot). Later Neil S. | ||
| M2nc |
You disappoint me Rocket. All conjecture and no facts. Here are some facts. http://www.moto-one.com.au/performance/1098withter mi70mm.html Here are Ducati guys talking in truths about the 1098. The two stock 1098's were dynoed with one peak at 131rwhp and the second peak 137rwhp. Dyno numbers for the 1125R runs between 127-141rwhp. Now after modifications with an after-factory exhaust and cam timing changes the 1098 hits 144rwhp (Hmm. that figure sounds familiar. Where have I read that number before?) If you look at the rwhp at 4k, 5k, 6k, 7k, 8k rpm and compare the dyno at the beginning of this thread and the best 1125R to the these two stock 1098 here is what you get. Order = 1098 / 1125R At 4K RPM ≈ 45-45 / 45-45 rwhp (Even) At 5K RPM ≈ 50-55 / 60-65 rwhp (5-15 rwhp advantage 1125) At 6K RPM ≈ 60-65 / 75-85 rwhp (10-25 rwhp advantage 1125) At 7K RPM ≈ 90-95 / 95-105 rwhp (0-15 advantage 1125) At 8K RPM ≈ 110-115 / 115-120 rwhp (0-10 advantage 1125) At 9K RPM ≈ 125-130 / 125-135 rwhp ((5)-5 Even) (1 - 1098 peaks at 131.1 @ 9600 RPM) (2 - 1098 peaks at 137.5 @ 9400 RPM) At 10K RPM ≈ 130-135 / 125-140 rwhp ((10)-5 Even if you average @ 132.5rwhp) (1 - Buell peaks at 128.9 @ 10200 RPM) (2 - Buell peaks at 141.9 @ 10200 RPM) You can not deny the flat spot in Ducati's torque curve. Plenty of objective evidence of the trough in the mid-range torque of the Ducati from Ducati guys. As a matter of fact I-4 Super Bikes also have more torque between 4K-6K than a 1098. As for weight: Claimed Dry weight. 1098 = 380 lbs 1125R = 375 lbs Dry weight during Cycle World testing. 1098 = 420 lbs 1098S = 410 lbs Buell claims of 1125R less gas 1125R = 420 lbs No evidence of an advantage. During testing of the editors complained that the wind screen of the 1098 was too small and left the rider exposed. Exposed = Drag from Rider The wind tunnel tested Buell claims quiet zone. Quiet Zone = No Drag from Rider Rocket - You claim to be the master debater but your reply to me was all rubbish, with no evidence to counter my claims. I have evidence that proves the 1125R has a double digit RWHP advantage in the mid-range then competes with the 1098 on top end. How can you claim with no seat time on the 1125R and no objective evidence that the 1098 will beat the 1125R before testing? To me if I were a Ducati manager I would never agree to a bone stock 1098 test against an 1125R. I would slip by "accident" in a 1098S or an optioned out 1098, take the couple of tenths second advantage on the road course over the 1125R and say see its faster. Objective evidence says $22,795 1098S versus 11,995 1125R Yes the Ducati is faster. 14,995 1098 versus 11,995 1125R I dunno and may never know because I doubt Ducati will have the courage. (Message edited by M2nc on January 30, 2008) | ||
| Blake |
According to Ducati, their base model 1098 gets the same engine as the 1098S. Only the $30K "R" version gets enhanced engine performance. | ||
| Fresnobuell |
I would slip by "accident" in a 1098S or an optioned out 1098, take the couple of tenths second advantage on the road course over the 1125R and say see its faster Ducati is famous for sending hotted up units for moto mag testing--I have routinely seen a 1098S or a 1098 with chip and upgraded cans. A stock 1098 being tested is rare. Buell has huge juevos for letting the pre-production units out for scrutiny. Oh, Blake the 1098R is $40K--a measly 24 grand more than the base 1098 and 28 grand more than the 1125r, what a deal! | ||
| Vagelis46 |
There is no point for Buellers being hostile to Ducati bikes! These 2 firms have many in common ! 1098 and 1125R are 2 bikes that will be close in performance. 1098 will be better in some areas (sport side), 1125R in other areas (comfort & maintenance) Comparing the prices of the 1098 and 1125R in the American market is not good, because of the taxes put on the Ducati. Lets see in the UK 1098 = 11250 pounds 1125R = 8500 pounds BUT what this 2750 pounds of extra money buys you is : The best Brembo monoblock brakes with 330mm rotors. Steering damper Adjustable rear ride height Multi-link rear suspension system Single sided swing arm 6" rear rim with 190/55/17 tire DUCATI's brand name, with many WSBK championships and a motoGP title. It is always great to own a Ducati. For some people the 1098 is worth the extra cash. For others it doesn't. Motorcycle reviews only tell one side of the story and are biased. Unless Buell enters racing with the 1125R, no-one can really tell which bike is better. For me, the Ducati will win around the track, anytime. But this does not make it a better bike than the Buell. |
