| Author | Message | ||
     Reepicheep |
I need a sanity check before I order parts to resolve the "dramatic pause after shift and before launch" issue with the worn dogs. Mine does it in second gear. Drop it into second, gently release clutch, feels ok, has power. Whack throttle to accelerate, something that feels like a momentary (less then quarter of a second) power loss, followed immediately by a yank your arms out of their sockets launch. I am to the point now where I goose the throttle a little in second gear to get it to "snap" when I am ready for it, instead of when I am leaned over accelerating out of a turn :0 The bike won't go into second if I shift out of first at redline. I have to wait for the revs to drop. When it does go in at higher revs, there is a borderline painful "whack" transmitted back through the shifter onto the top of my foot. So this sounds like a textbook case of what Aaron has described and resolved... worn dogs. A buddy that runs a UJM bike shop agreed when I described the symptoms, and indicated he does not even crack the case (UJM's, remember) until he has a new second gear and shift for in stock. Said he does it all the time, could do it in his sleep. So, blessed as I am with a motorcycle with a trap door transmission, I am going to do it myself. I looked at the power diagram and the parts book, and here are the major parts I think I am going to get. I left off the incidental stuff like clips and gaskets... This is for a 2000 M2, probably the same for most others as well. From the diagram, it looks like the 2nd and 3rd gear engagement dogs pair must be the problem. I am only replacing the shifter pawl to absolve myself of lingering guilt after beating the heck out of the poor little thing getting home after my primary tensioner split. I was having trouble getting it into 2nd, and asked a lot of the poor fellow during a tense moment in heavy traffic. It is probably OK, but I want to replace it while I have things apart just in case. So here are the parts I am going to get: 1) Shifter Fork, First and Second. Part 34142-89c 2) 2nd gear, countershaft. Part 35797-00 3) 3rd gear, countershaft. Part 35771-94 4) Shifter pawl, part 34492-91 Any reason I should not just go ahead and order these things ahead of time? Normally I would pull before ordering replacements, but this seems like SUCH a cut and dried case I want to get stuff ahead of time. Any other parts I should do while I am in there? 13k miles on bike, no other obvious issues. Already has new detent plate and new primary chain tensioner. | ||
| Jmartz |
You might not need the shifter forks. The current steel type is quite durable. Take the cassette out and remove the drum with the forks. Carefully inspect the the grooves on the drum around the apexes. You may find the metal "risen" in these areas. Take a Dremel and grind it down to the drum's OD. Look into the bore of the forks and relieve any burs. Perhaps you might want to invest in a Baker ez shift kit, I understand it comes with a new drum and other items. You will need to replace the two gears that engage. I know that for the problem occurring on 1st (which is where I had it) you will need 1st and 3rd as 3rd is what engages 1st. Perhaps both gears need not be replaced. I would look at the "dog" one 1st. | ||
| Jmartz |
In the old days a dog with a fork would engage two gears, one to the left and another to the right. In today's "modern" tranny HD has chosen to put on the neighboring gear the dog and fork. Some of the gears are on splines (they rotate with the shaft) and others freewheel. I do not have a clear picture of the design but there are 3 forks. Two on one shaft one on the other. You will need the transmission in front of you or a good exploded view in order to decide exactly what you. If you would like I can look at mine and make a suggestion. This should (if I get it absolutely right) save you the downtime of order travel time. | ||
| Buellskinner |
Any one have a source for a 30t front Sprocket for the Buell/Sportster engine? Thanks | ||
| Buellskinner |
Looking for a 30 T Pulley not sprocket. Thanks | ||
| Sportyeric |
Reepicheep. I went through this a few years ago. I described it at the time as feeling like a mouse had gone for ride around the belt, or the same feeling as when you go over a manhole-cover on full throttle. I pulled the cassette and had the shop change out a pair of gears. I couldn't really see the wear on the dogs when they showed me ( but i think i need bi-focals). I OKed the gear replacement anyway. I seem to remember that it was one from the mainshaft and one from the countershaft, with the concern being matching up new teeth, although it was the dogs on second gear that were worn. I'll see if I have the records on file. | ||
| Chuck |
Hey All . . . Hey Bill, Have you tried doing the shifter pawl adjustment described on page 6-33 of your service manual? I did this over the weekend . . . but have not yet given the bike its "thrash" test. Anyway, my problem wasn't as severe as yours; but my symptoms were similar. I've got nearly 13,000 miles on my M2 . . . and I do ride hard upon occasion - but I don't feel that I'm abusing the transmission. Maybe I'll end up needing new gears, too . . . but I'm hoping this adjustment will make things better. Here are some pictures  The manual says to put the bike in 3rd gear, and use a #32 drill bit to set the proper gap between the pawl and the shift drum pin. I'll let you know tomorrow if I helped things or not. | ||
| Chuck |
sorry  | ||
| Reepicheep |
Thanks for the tip Chuck... I did not re-adjust it, but I did follow the procedure to check it, and it looked fine. I did not have exactly the right size drill bit, rather one just a little smaller, and it lined up about as I expected given its smaller size. So it's possible its that adjustment, but I don't think so. Besides, if that were the problem I would have expected it to be an issue with several gears and not related to RPM, where mine is ALWAYS second gear, and ALWAYS high RPM. We just had a new baby girl, so I won't be tearing into it for a couple weeks probably, and when I do it will have to be whatever I can get done between the time the family goes to bed and I have to go to bed, so it will probably be a pretty long drawn out effort, a week or so, so I don't mind pulling parts and inspecting before ordering. Thanks for the tips everyone, I will post pictures of what I find. | ||
| Chuck |
Hey Bill, the adjustment I did seemed to help alot. Before, when shifting from 1rst to 2nd at "high" rpm, the transmission would hang in neutral . . . even with "extra" force against the shifter. I know this symptom seems like a gear or shaft problem, but the shifter pawl must have been the major culprit. Anyway, mine seemed to be adjusted properly, too . . . but I couldn't leave well enough alone so I cheated with the adjustment and gave the plate a little extra push as I was locking it down . . . so . . . so far/so good. I'm just sorry I wasn't brave enough to try this sooner. | ||
| Reepicheep |
I have that "spin and grind" at high RPM's, which it does sound like shifter pawl adjustment would help. I also have the "half engagement" where I can deliver some power in gear, but when I really get on the throttle it feels like it slips for a split second before really giving me a solid whack of forward momentum, so I still think I am going to have to replace the second gear pair Perhaps my pawl has been out of adjustment for a while, and contributed to the wear on my dogs... and I still worry that I bent my shift pawl on some overenthusiastic shifts while trying not to die in traffic getting home with a broken primary chain tensioner... Too cold here to pull it apart and look now though... maybe next week... Thanks for the data point Chuck... Let me know how it holds up over time... Bill | ||
| Chuck |
Oh . . . I almost forgot. In rare cases, the torx screw that holds the transmission countershaft in place, can come loose. (visible in the lower right corner of the second photo I posted above) I have a good friend who runs a small shop who has encountered this on two different 1200 sportsters. Needless to say, this causes lots of shifting problems. | ||
| Rdefonce |
HELP! The weather was fine today in St. Louis (sunny and 65 deg) so we got the bikes out for a Sunday ride. I got my '98 S1 about 35 miles down the road, passed about 7 cars (including a Viper, ha!) . . . then the tranny seemed stuck in 4th gear. I finally got it to upshift, then it was stuck in 5th! I managed to ride it almost all the way home in top gear, when I slowed too much. Then I tried to downshift . . . it seemed stuck in 5th. I forced the lever a bit and it ground down to 3rd. The clutch is working fine as far as I can tell, but it just doesn't want to shift . . . any ideas? I'm clueless, so any good lead is appreciated. | ||
| Rick_A |
Sounds like bent/damaged shift fork. There is a couple forks actuated through 3rd 4th and 5th gears. It could be either/both of those. Can you shift good in 1st and 2nd? If not it's more likely something awry in the mechanism...like a spring or pawl, etc. | ||
| Reepicheep |
Check your primary chain tensioner. Pull the cover, don't just set the tension. The backplate breaks, and the instant transition from normal running to problematic shifting is the normal failure symptom. The new part has a backplate about twice the thickness of the old one, check the archives for many pictures / discussions. You will need a new primary cover gasket when you go in there. I reused the shifter shaft seal several times with no problems, but I was careful. | ||
| Lornce |
Hey Reep, Can you tell which tensioner's in yer bike without removing the cover? cheep, Lornce | ||
| Mikej |
Lornce, Maybe with a dental mirror and some measurement/comparison tool. On my M2 I could sort of see it thru the clutch inspection cover and could sort of see it wasn't broke. Best way is to just remove the primary cover, which is what I plan to do before the main riding season starts here. | ||
| Rdefonce |
Thanks for the tips Rick and Reep. I'll Start with the tensioner backplate. I hope it's as simple as that. If not, I'll pull the tranny and start checking the forks, etc. | ||
| Reepicheep |
Rdefonce... My Cyclone, when exhibiting very similiar symptoms to yours, had a backplate that was split on one side of the tensioner bolt, but not the other. The plastic was still intact, the break would have been impossible to spot without removing the tensioner. One test that might work would be to set the tension, go take a ride and hit the accelerator pretty hard a couple times, and dump the clutch on deceleration (downshift) pretty hard a couple times. If the tensioner is broken, that should totally mess up the tension adjustment. Pull it back in the garage and check and see if you are totally out of tolerance again. Though even that could fail. If the backplate is broken, the bolt would then just be adjusted to be tight up against the shoe, which would hold tension until the shoe breaks, the whole time the metal backplate is breaking free and just waiting to get sucked into your tranny... Pull the cover. It's only about an hour job, and a $6 or so gasket. Have some gasket remover ready to paint on with a brush (careful, it dissolves paint). Also have some dowels cut to about 2 inch sections, and hit with a pencil sharpener so you can thread them in the bolt holes and hold the gasket in place while you slide on the primary cover (over the dowels). Then remove the dowels one at a time and replace with the bolts. It makes the job pretty easy. You don't have to pull the exhaust, just wrap it with tinfoil of clean it up after the fact. I don't even drain the primary before I start, just let it drool out over the exhaust and down into a catch basin, and just wipe it down afterwards. Bill | ||
| Rick_A |
My shifting has been getting a little vague lately, too. Hopefully it won't require surgery...'cause I have no off season! | ||
| Rdefonce |
Bill, I hope it's as simple as a tensioner backplate. I can't even think about taking a ride; the tranny is locked in 4th gear now and it won't budge . . . could that be the tensioner backplate? (Seems like something from deep within the tranny to me.) Like Rick, I have little time to work on it, so I'm afraid it'll be sitting a while before it's fixed.:-( Thanx for the tips.:-) | ||
| Reepicheep |
There is a pretty good chance that the backplate broke and just wedged itself somewhere in there. Get the primary cover gasket, the updated tensioner, and a can of mobil 1 gear oil. You can do the whole job in an evening easily, probably 2 hours or less if you use the sharpened dowel rod thing I suggested above. The worst and most time consuming part of the whole deal will be scraping the old gasket material off the primary cover, so you know it can't be THAT bad a job. Gasket remover and gasket scrapers (or a razor blade with no nicks) will help a lot with that. I don't think you even have to touch the exhaust (besides wiping off any drooling primary fluid). | ||
| Rdefonce |
Thanks for the tips Bill.:-) I'm going to pull that cover off this week and take a peek . . . hope it's the backplate! Ron | ||
| Hoser |
Ron: Be prepared to go deeper than just the primary cover , based on the symptoms you described sunday. What may have happened ( i've seen this a couple of times before ) is the two needle bearings which are pressed in to 5th gear and support the right end of the mainshaft have seized to the shaft. This is not common but can happen as a result of contamination/water entering the transmission or by condensation forming , which then corodes the bearings and shaft. This area is not well lubricated , meaning oil can not easily enter between the bearing and shaft. To check for corrosion here without removing the primary cover or transmission , access your drive pulley and remove the seal in the center of the pulley ( this is the outboard end of 5th gear ), if the bearings are rusted and have failed due to corrosion it will be obvious. The lack of oil feed to this area is in my opinion a design flaw , or perhaps a manufacturing cost saving . The 4 speed had a cross drilled passage to lube the 1st gear bushing and needle bearings which support the countershaft , I believe XR 750's are still built this way . J.D.H. | ||
| Twistedjohn |
Chuck: re: countershaft torx screw Our product, SportGear, is designed with more than 3 diameters of additional bolt stretch that solves this exact problem. We also feature a snap ring on the main gear to retain the oil seal and bearing, thus preventing walking. The net result is everything stays where it's supposed to. (We've got a good cross section view on the web site.) John | ||
| Rdefonce |
Hi Hoser, I hope it's not what you're describing.:-0 If it is, I'll just have to deal with it. If I can get past work and school, I'll pull the seal from the drive pulley and check for rust. Either way, I need to pull the primary, and replace the "beater" stock tensioner with the upgraded one. Where's the best place to order the upgraded parts from, anyway? Ron | ||
| Madav8tr |
Well, here I am again. During a very "spirited" ride yesterday I developed a problem with my transmission. It is similar to rdefonce's problem in that it stuck in 4th gear. I managed to get it to shift but it was difficult and neutral was a pain to locate. I limped home on it and by the time I got home I had a 4 speed(5th gear has left the building) Well, I decided I would let it cool and check it later. When I checked at that time 4th gear had also departed and 1-3 were not guranteed to work. I put it on my rack and removed the primary cover. I didn't see anything out of the ordinary, like a broken tensioner, but I can now shift it through 1-3 really easy and neutral is easy to find as well. 4th and 5th are still no shows. This is shifting it by hand with the rear wheel off the tablein addition to the clutch still being in place and the primary cover off. Since 1-3 seems to be working fine I am now curious about the others. I checked the archives and it seemed that this problem had been encountered before and something as simple a fluid replacement and/or clutch adjustment worked at times. I just don't want to remove the primary again if this hasn't fixed the problem. What do you guys think? BTW, to help you understand how "spirited" my ride was I also had an oil pressure switch fail and my carbon fiber aircleaner cover decided it had enough as well and left the bike. It would later regret that move as an 18 wheeler promplty ran over it(luckily I caught the filter before it suffered the same fate) Thanks in advance for any help. | ||
| Reepicheep |
Did you actually pull the tensioner, or just give it a visual inspection while still installed? When mine cracked, only half the supporting plate had cracked, and it was (naturally) the part not visible when the primary cover was pulled. I had to completely remove it. The good news is that you have a cartridge type transmission, so you can pull it and repair it without splitting the cases. | ||
| Madav8tr |
I just checked it without removing it but since it is the old style tensioner I am going to replace it. I am happy that servicing the tranny appears to be within my skill level I just don't want to tear into it if I don't have to. Oh well, I can always ride my RC51 until I get the S1 back on the road again. The horror!!!!  | ||
| Madav8tr |
Could someone post a picture of a new shifter pawl so I can get an idea if my pawl is worn beyond service limits? It doesn't seem in good shape to me in my untrained eye. I pulled the tranny and everything appears to be fine but I still can't shift it into 4th by hand. Any help before I put it back together and see(hope?!!!) that everything is working right. |
