| Author | Message | ||
     Forevernow |
with the 536 cams you should probly use different valve springs and adj. pushrods so it would be easy to check clearances with the motor that far apart ,if it was me i would get the head work done while i was at it or at least go with less restrictive valves(thats why my engines been apart twice this winter) | ||
| Bigun283 |
Yeah I have a service manual. I was wondering if I will need to machine material in the cases. I already have upgraded springs and valves with my nallin stage 2 heads. | ||
| Forevernow |
here is a qustion fore Aaron,can you tell me what size valves nallin raceing sell for t-storms,and what i can use keeping the origonal seats ,i was thinking 1.90 intake and stock 1.580 exhaust,tried to call nallin racing beforecloseing but must have been to late bigun283 sorry didnt read your profile,mine didnt need clearanceing | ||
| Blake |
I'm running 0.580" lift cams. No machining of the cases was required. Nallin Racing did the work. Call me ignorant, but why would the cases need machined? | ||
| Rempss |
If a cam manufacturer uses the stock base circle for higher lift cams the lobes may make contact with the bottom end of the lifter bores. Should be .060" (if I remember correctly) clearance between cam lobes and lifter bores. It requires tape, die grinder and a good long investigation of the required measurements. Then a good long oil washing of the cambox. Seems that Carl's (and Andrews on bigger grinds, maybe others) use a smaller base circle which requires the use of adjustable pushrods but keeps the lobes close to stock movement at maximum lift without clearancing. Jeff | ||
| Aaron |
Forevernow, we generally go with 1.840 or 1.900 intakes depending on what the customer's goals are. 1.615 or 1.625 are the common exhausts. Blake, Jeff is right, depending on the year of the engine .580 may well cause a clearance between the lobes and the bottom of the lifter bosses. Also they can cause an issue with the lifter body running into the anti-rotation pin because the flat isn't long enough (some aftermarket lifters have longer flats). Small base circle cams address these issues but allowing the lifter to come farther down can cause an issue with the lifter body adjacent to the axle running into the cam bushings. It takes careful checking and clearancing to get that much lift into these motors. It's not hard, just takes attention. | ||
| Blake |
You know, I think that's about the 3rd time I've had that explained to me. Maybe I'll remember this time. Thanks Aaron. | ||
| Bigun283 |
Ok I think I can probably install the cams myself. Is there anything else I should get i.e. roller rockers, adjustable pushrods, lifters, pushrod covers? | ||
| Aaron |
The beauty of the 536's is that the moderate lift and overlap and stock base circle makes them easy and inexpensive to install. No adjustable pushrods or collapsible covers or roller rockers required. Piston to valve and valve to valve and retainer to guide clearances should not be issues (although it never hurts to check them). Generally, the only thing those cams need is a set of springs, which you have already. I've seen a couple of motors break 110hp with those cams, too, obviously with headwork and what not but it shows that the cams are not holding it back. They're really a good bang for the buck and we generally steer people toward them unless they're going for the really big power or they have a big engine. | ||
| Andys |
Hi Guys, Andy here. Yea, that Andy. The one who disappeared a couple of years ago. All I can say is that divorces suck, especially when you DON'T want the relationship to end. Anyway.... I need to replace the rear rockerbox gasket and I can't find the archive that gives the best description of how to do it. I have the factory manual but I thought you guys had a better way to do it. I've already purchased the "killer" Cometic rockerbox gasket set. I'm also looking for the suspension article I wrote many years ago. I want to submit it to a possible employer and could use its archive address. Thanks for all your help. My internet access is quite limited, but I'll try to keep in better touch. Andy | ||
| Blake |
HEY ANDY!!! Cool that you still have your S1W! Great to hear from you again. I think that your suspension article is in the Knowledge Vault - Suspension archives. I don't recall anything special offered about rocker box gasket replacement. One thing that I did was to lightly surface the rocker box on jeweler's paper and a granite flat table. The main thing is to get the faying surfaces super clean (I recommend contact cleaner) and to keep them bone dry. I also think it is a good idea to torque the bolts to the low end of the specified range, then after letting them set for a couple hours to come back and torque them to the mid to upper end of the specified range. The gasket definitely relaxes under pressure and the two stage torquing may help ameliorate that loosening effect. | ||
| Aaron |
The 3 bolts on the floor of the rocker box are susceptible to being twisted off. I've had it happen even though my properly set wrench had not yet clicked. My advice is to use a quarter inch drive torque wrench and torque'em to the low end of the specified range. | ||
| Blake |
Aaron, Given the inherent accuracy and so-so state of calibration of most of our torque wrenches, if we aim for the low end of the range, we may in fact fall short of achieving it. Likewise if we aim for the high end, we might just as easily overshoot. A bolt that twists off below its properly specified torque suggests either a worn bolt, an improper grade or poor quality bolt, an inclined or incongruous surface putting the bolt head in bending, or a miscalibrated torque wrench. There is one other possibility. If a bolted connection is specified to be dry, meaning unlubricated, adding lubricant can increase bolt tension (preload) by more than 33%. Unfortunately the service manual fails to specifically designate the rocker box's bolted connections as dry or lubricated. If I remember correctly though, bolts removed from an engine's rockerbox exhibit telltale signs of locktite. | ||
| Aaron |
I think they've screwed up speccing this one. I know of several people who've twisted them off. | ||
| Robr |
Count another one Aaron. Odd that this discussion should come up now, but I twisted one off on Sunday(a lower rocker box bolt that is). 1990 Sporster, only the second time I've had the box off. I felt it pop before the wrench had reached 10ft.lbs. Luckily I was able to back the whole bolt out, hanging on a couple of strands of metal! Today I bought three replacements bolts and a new torque wrench(click type). Guess I'll pick up a Quarter inch drve wrench tomorrow. Rob | ||
| Bbd |
uk 1999 cyclone- I want to install lighter pushrods,I weighed an exhaust one at 90gm,s,I,m sure lighter would be better all round-whats the best pushrods for street use -ally or steel? anyone who knows me cringes when i have an idea I,v had an idea-I have looked at cam timing from other v-twin bikes and am wondering why buell inlet and exhaust cam timing is the same or very similar?has anyone considered or tried something like lightening exhaust cams with se.536 inlet or andrews n4 exhaust with n9 inlet?other bikes have more lift and duration on the inlet than exhaust cam.buell exhausts are more efficient than sportster,s so cylinder fill is more important from the cams-any comments,ideas on what this might do for bhp and or torque are very welcome. | ||
| Andys |
Thank you gentlemen for all your help. It was nice hearing from all of you again. | ||
| Blake |
"I think they've screwed up speccing this one. I know of several people who've twisted them off." I can't argue that. What I could argue though, is that the manual should specify a "dry" installation, and/or a reduced "wet" torque. If the torque specified in the manual is intended for a dry connection, installing a lubricated bolt would cause bolt preload to exceed intended levels by 33%; the result? SNAP! If I can find pertinent section properties for a 1/4"-20 bolt, I'll check the actual stresses. But anyway, as usual, your advice is sound. Spec is 10-13 FT*LBs Lubricated... P=T/(0.15D)=13*12/(0.15*1/4)=4,160 LB Dry... P=T/(0.20D)=13*12/(0.15*1/4)=3,120 LB Tensile stress area of a 1/4"-20 bolt is 0.0318 IN2 which gives a stress diameter of 0.201", so the corresponding tensile stresses are... Lubricated... fT=P/A=4,160/0.0318=131,000 PSI Dry... fT=P/A=4,160/0.0318=98,100 PSI Estimating the peak shear stress due to torsion... fST=16T/pD3=16*(13*12)/(p*0.2013)=97,800 PSI Shear and tension combined via Von Mises yield approximately 196,000 PSI for the dry case and 214,000 PSI for the lubed case. Holy melted bolt! Yer right again! Even for the dry joint, I don't see the bolt holding up to the max torque spec, even if it were a grade 8. Just fer grins, let's check the 5/16"-18 bolts... Torque spec is 15-18 FT*LBs. Tensile stress area is 0.0524 IN2, stress dia is 0.258". Lubricated... P=18*12/(0.15*5/16)= 4,608 LB fT=4,608/0.0524=87,900 PSI fST=16*(18*12)/(p*0.2583)= 64,100 PSI For a max combined stress of around 142,000 PSI For the dry case the von Mises stress is about 129,000 PSI. Yep, that confirms it, the 1/4-20 bolt torque specs are too high. I always wondered by the rockerbox's 1/4"-20 allen head cap screws had a lesser specified torque (90-120 IN*LBs or 7.5-10 FT*LBs). Ten FT*LBs make-up torque would reduce peak stress to a reasonable level in a 1/4"-20 bolt. Note: The above is a crude estimate of combined stresses using an idealized circular section shear stress and the resulting Von Mises stress combination of tension and shear. | ||
| Hoser |
Blake : I have twisted off two , on separate occasions , while removing the bolts , never on installation. | ||
| Wman |
Does anybody know what is the highest lift cam that will fit 00 and later without maching case, I am considering Andrews N8. Heard they work well with little haed work. | ||
| Kcbill |
ping Nallin racing Wman with that question. Aaron or Brian will get back to you on it. | ||
| Aaron |
Generally you start running into lobe to lobe boss clearance issues at around .560 or so, on stock base circle anyway. That's also about the same point where you can run into tappet anti-rotation pin clearance as well, where you run out of flat spot on the tappet and it starts hitting the pin. You need about .050 of cold clearance there to keep from having contact. The N8's are well below that lift, I can't imagine you'll have any trouble. I don't think N8's are actually called "bolt-in" but they're pretty close, they've got more overlap than say the SE cams and therefore they're pushing the valve to valve and valve to piston a little closer. Wouldn't be a bad idea to check those things. But I can't imagine you'll have any problem in the cam box. | ||
| Wman |
Aaron: Thanks for the info. I am going with the N8,s with the weather in the north-east I still have a month or so to check clearence. Recomend any brand lifters? Jims? | ||
| Aaron |
We sell JIMS, they make good stuff. I like Hydrosolids myself. | ||
| Wman |
Aaron. What is a hydro-solid? How is it different from a hydrolic lifter, what are the benefits? | ||
| Aaron |
It's a travel limited lifter. Basically, it only allows a slight amount of collapse and then it becomes a solid. The idea is you get the performance of a solid with the self adjusting and quietness of a hydraulic. | ||
| Hootowl |
Do they still pump up at high RPM? | ||
| Aaron |
I have yet to see that be a problem with them, have you? | ||
| Stingaroo |
Have a 2001 M-2, has my own hand made intake, similiar to the race kit, and currently has V&H exhuast with stock header. Will be changing that to DandD or the Buell system. Wanted to get cams for it, which will give it good lowend power and torque. Want to be able to pull some nice wheelies by just twisting throttle. Anybody have any suggestions? Do not want to do head work, and am not sure if I will need any new valve springs or not. Any info will help me out, Im not sure of myself when it comes to the internal workings and limitations of the bike. Thanks fellas!!! Brian | ||
| Bigun283 |
Not quite sure if this should go here or not. Here goes. I am in the process of installing new cams in my S1W. I ran into a problem. In the service manual it says to change the seal on the gear case. I have removed the old seal, but now can not get the new one in. I did see that it said "press" the new seal in. I just want to know if there is anyway to install it without taking it to a shop and have them use a hydraulic press? |
