| Author | Message | ||
     Vagelis46 |
"Amnesia?" : Greek word = lack of memory. Thanks for using greek words. Stoner was also riding a secondary crap RCV last year, and Honda is well known for lack of front end feel. Remember what Bayliss said for the Hondas after his switch to RCV?? Remember that this year, all the Honda riders were complaining for "no front end feel", as well ?? It seems that Stoner had the "balls" to find the limit of the last years crappy Honda's front end. This year the RCV riders on Michelin or Bridges, instead of trying to find the exact limit of their package, they chose to "bitch" to either Honda or Michelin! Rossi tried to find the limit in Valencia and crashed. Does this mean that he is careless or un-talented ?? He just did what he should have done 8 months ago, find the limit of his package, instead of blaming Michelin. The only Honda rider that had some self respect this year was your countryman, Nicky Hayden. Unfortunately no luck for him in Laguna and Philip Island, so no confidence boost for him. Remember that all it took for Hayden to start making an impact in motoGP, was the Laguna win in 05. Another "Rossi hyper-fan" ?? | ||
| Jaimec |
May I point out that last year's "Crap RCV" was good enough to earn last year's champion the title? And it was also the bike UNANIMOUSLY picked by every moto-journalist as the best bike on the grid? I'm NOT the "Rossi Hyper-fan" but YOU seem to be the "Stoner Hyper-fan." | ||
| Rocketman |
I don't think we've ever seen a race yet from Rossi where he doesn't find the limit. Doesn't he ride beyond it often too? I think so. What I am not is a Rossi fan. What I am is a fan of watching great bike racing. Rossi never fails to provide that. Rossi has another consistency I can't seem to attribute to other racers. Maybe because of their lesser profile in Rossi's presence, they get passed by a little. But you often hear Rossi saying how much he enjoyed the race, win or lose. That's not something you hear others saying consistently. Could that be because Rossi is the hardest trier the result for him doing so is absolute enjoyment? I might be 46 years old but I know young talent when I see it. This year it surely goes to Stoner. Mrs Stoner that is  Rocket | ||
| Trojan |
Stoner was also riding a secondary crap RCV last year, and Honda is well known for lack of front end feel. Same bike that Elias & Melandri won races on, and by the end of the year exactly the same spec as the works guys had. As Jaimec said, it was good enough to win the world title with more than once. This year Rossi has not only had to contend with Michelins lack of progress but also rode the slowest bike on the grid (fact). I am not saying that Stoner isn't a good rider, because he obviously is. My point is that at this level of motorsport rider ability does not improve by huge leaps but by small increments. The improvement in Stoners results is absolutely amazing and a although he has obviously improved as a rider, a lot of it must be put down to the bike and tyres rather than pure riding skill. He will face a much stiffer test next year, not only from other teams catching up with Ducati but from his new team mate Melandri, and if he can come out on top again then he will certainly be regarded as a worthy champion and maybe even heir to Rossi's throne. At the moment it is a bit too soon to say that. I must admit that I am a Rossi hyper fan, in the same way that I am a Hailwood, Saarinen and Barry Sheene hyper fan. Not just because of their record but because of their huge enthusiasm for the sport. | ||
| Rocketman |
Ok, let's look at this years title, and Stoner's performance, and ask who else could have won the championship on the Ducati? I know what odds I'd give to who, and I'd further bet there'd have been more than one other capable besides Rossi. Then I'd ask who else could have come where Rossi did in the championship on his Yamaha, and I'd be content to say there would be no one else. Rocket | ||
| Vagelis46 |
I think next year will be the most interesting, in the last 10 years. The fact that a rider can choose his own tires, makes perfect sense to me. I agree with Rossi, if Bridges he wants, then Bridges he should get! If we reach a point that only one tire manufacturer is requested by the top riders, then they should get that tire. I do not agree with control tires, since it will stop development, and a lot of money will have to be spend for the teams to design new bikes, for tires with less grip. I also think that Melandri will do well on the Ducati ,and that he might do better than Stoner. But for me next year, I would say that Pedrosa is the favourite. RCV seems it now has Ducati's speed, and they have not used pneumatic or desmo valves. But maybe Ducati, after securing the title, detuned their GP7, so that the rest of the teams stay "asleep" and "happy " with their progress to match Ducati. What about Stoner next year ? After China's GP, everybody ( I was thinking this claim made sence) were saying that he might not score another win, especially in Europe! But he proved everybody wrong. I am also happy for Kawa, having a really "wild" new talented rider! It will be a great season next year. That is for sure. | ||
| Blublak |
 Mrs. Stoner.. if I wasn't happily married.. as she (hopefully) is.. Then I'd say something like .. "She can ride me .. uh.. with me .. anytime! Rocket, you are a man of fine tastes in.. well.. rides (wink wink/nudge nudge, say no more)..  (I am so going to get sooo burned for this post...) | ||
| Blake |
I'm a HUGE fan of Rossi for all the reasons my good friend Sean (Rocketman) lists. He is always enjoying life and positive in his approach. What I cannot agree with is diminishing the amazing accomplishment of the man, machine, and team who wins the MotoGP championship. Yes, it take ALL three. For some here it seems that if it ain't Rossi, is a fluke. Apparently when Stoner gets a machine and team up to the task of top level support and he finds a way to elevate his performance above and beyond what he'd accomplished in the past, he's a flash in the pan? A man who wants to win but is saddled with less than competitive machine and team will be much more likely to crash. Rossi now understands this too. Yeah, Pedro was dominant on the 125 and 250, small tiny lightweight little bikes that didn't come anywhere close to achieving the speeds or power of the MotoGP machines and which greatly benefitted from Pedro's dimminutive size and weight. Pedro is a great racer, no doubt. But he's too small, not strong enough, to withstand the extreme rigors of the more challenging handling tracks in the MotoGP series. Pedrosa's lack of complete and total dominance in MotoGP like he enjoyed in the lower ranks would seem to support that view. How many years will the Hayden naysayer's give Pedro to win a championship before they start deriding his skills like they did Hayden's? Double standards anyone? F1 sets the weight limit for the car and driver, which I think is sound rules-making. If only that were the case, at least to some extent, for MotoGP too, the trend towards dimminutive jockey-like riders might be averted. My question, why the heck couldn't/cannot Ducati get Rossi on board? The Italians would be in racing nirvanah, yes? I hope it happens and he can win a championship for them, but Stoner did it first and that boy can flat out ride a motorcycle. How tough must it be to maintain one's focus in the world of MotoGP as a multiple world champion with vast material wealth pouring in, while so often being hailed as the "best ever" or close to it? That's gotta be tough. | ||
| Jaimec |
Rossi found the Ducati "environment" too close to Honda's (which he deplored). It's all in his autobiography. Ducati now has an Italian superstar racing one of their bikes on the world stage, albeit it's World Superbikes and not MotoGP. | ||
| Vagelis46 |
I have to disagree that Pedrosa is too small to ride a motoGP bike. His riding style is really great. He has really good results and he will get the title very soon, maybe next year. If being small offers an advantage in motoGP, then so be it. Suggesting a minimum weight in moto-racing, is like suggesting a minimum height in basketball, for me it does not make sense. If motoGP favours tiny people (I really doupt it) let them compete and get all the championships. But history suggests otherwise. Neither Doohan, Roberts, Rossi, Hayden, Stoner or WSBK's Bayliss, Toseland, are tiny people compared to other 100% professional athletes. Of course if you compare them to an average person, they are very fit, not skinny. Hayden is really good as well. I realy enjoy watching him, especially during QP. He is really fast and also spectacular. I wish motoGP bans traction control, and then we will see the real potential of Nicky. Of course Nicky suffered the '' Rossi's hyper fan'' desease : ''I hate everyone that beats our God.''. I am talking about the general feeling. Fortunately ''clear head'' moto-racing enthusiasts really appreciate Hayden, Stoner, Melandri, Pedrosa, Capirossi, etc For me, watching thousand of ''Rossi hyper fans'' leave San Marino, after Rossi retired, was a travesty...... I really like Rossi, I really dislike his fans. | ||
| Rocketman |
Blake, I'm not diminishing Stoner's achievement at all. He's one of not many in the world that can race at this level. That said, I didn't see this years championship as down to Stoner. Worse still, every race was his to win, but he only managed to win 10 of them that were either easy for the Ducati's undeniable performance advantage, or Bridgestone tyres working consistently where the Michelin's didn't work at all, or being gifted the win by the miserable luck of others. Someone name one race win where Stoner's riding talent alone was clear as day to see as the deciding factor. There simply isn't one. Rocket | ||
| Jaimec |
Playing the Devil's Advocate here, there are plenty of people who feel that if Rossi's bike were more reliable these past two years, he would've won the title both years. Last year (at least) Rossi won more races than anyone else on the grid. The man who took the title only stood on the top step twice. The deciding factor was the M1 breaking down and failing. The fact that Rossi was still in the hunt after all of those DNF's is a testament alone to his skill. In the end, it was a gunfight and Rossi (like it or not) blinked first and Nicky took the title. But there are legions of fans who still think "If only..." Same for this year. As Matt already pointed out, the M1 was the slowest bike on the grid. If you want to know how "mere mortals" would do on it, just look at Colin Edwards and the Tech3 team. If Michelin were as competitive at the beginning of the year as they were towards the end, it would've been a far more exciting season. Would Stoner still have won? I think he had a better chance at beating a 100% Rossi than Nicky Hayden, and yes... he MIGHT have won even if Rossi were at 100%. But again, we'll never know. Do I "hate" Stoner because he won? Don't be ridiculous! Casey won fair and square and deserves all the accolades he gets. But I WILL be one of those people this winter thinking "If only..." You can't call yourself a true MotoGP fan if you don't, because that would be SERIOUSLY underestimating the talent of #46. | ||
| Vagelis46 |
So why Capirossi did not finish 2nd to Stoner ?? Is he that bad ?? Since the GP7 and the Bridgestones were giving a : '' undeniable performance advantage'' If it wasn't Stoner's talent Rossi would have won in Qatar and China. Everyone else would have cracked under Rossi's pressure. | ||
| Jaimec |
I give up. You can't discuss logic with these Stoner Hyper-fans... | ||
| Imonabuss |
Stoner's talent was off the charts. Capirossi had the same bike, same power advantage and more experience. He was nowhere in the same league. Stoner was the only guy who could fight through the handling weaknesses of the Ducati to make full use of the huge power advantage. This year he was a god among men, with will, skill and reflexes. | ||
| Rocketman |
Sorry I don't buy it. The Ducati turned out to be a great handling bike. It was everyone who'd not ridden it or seen it race for long enough, that led us to believe it wasn't. Turned out the only guys that knew they had it somewhere damn near right were the Ducati guys that designed and built it. As for Capirossi, anyone around the age of 33 that's gifted their first child, man they ain't gonna put their heart in their mouth at 200mph every other weekend until they've got their family emotions in a safe place in their head. That's what Capirossi showed us towards the later part of the season. Rocket | ||
| Blake |
"he only managed to win 10" No comment.   | ||
| Blake |
Folks who have never raced seem to imagine that winning races is no big deal. | ||
| Trojan |
Stoner's talent was off the charts. Capirossi had the same bike, same power advantage and more experience. He was nowhere in the same league. Stoner was the only guy who could fight through the handling weaknesses of the Ducati to make full use of the huge power advantage. This year he was a god among men, with will, skill and reflexes. Did you watch any of this season at all? Capirossi suffered on the Ducati because he could not gel with the same advanced electronics that Stoner relies on so much. By mid season Capirossis bike was completely different to Stoners, including different engine management and even diferent firing orders. However he was still not able to get on with the bike, and admited that his riding style was partly to blame. If you want proof of Capirossi's true pace take a look at the first testing times from Valencia on the Suzuki this week, where he was instantly faster than his Ducati times at the same track two days earlier. Ducati handling weakness? I don't think so. When you have software that makes it extremely dificult to fall off regardless of when you open the throttle or how hard you open it, any handling weakness is pretty much negated. To be hones the bike looked like it was on rails all year so mabe you can explain where you think the handling weakness is? This year the Ducati & bridgestone were head & shoulders above every other bike on the grid, period. This isn't just my opinion, but that of every professional commentator and GP insider too, so it isn't just an anti Stoner backlash. In fact if Stoner hadn't won the title it would have been a big surprise in hindsight given the advantage they had. The only measure we can make of any riders talent is when they race on equal machinery, so we have to look at Stoners performance before this season to compare him with other riders, and that is where the 'god like talent' theory falls apart. He was beaten in 125 & 250GP and was fast but crashed a lot on the Honda last year. This year he has had the luxury of being able to ride at 9/10ths for most of the year. If Stoner had been signed by Yamaha this year, as was very likely at one point, instead of Ducati do you honestly think he would have won the title or beaten Rossi? Congratulations to Stoner, Ducati & Bridgestone for their win this year. They all deseved it. Lets now bring on next year and see if he can become a true champion and retain his title. | ||
| Rasta_dog |
I thought that I read that Stoner used less electronic management/or that it was less effective on the Ducati and that Stoner's dirt track experience (along with the Bridgestone tire) are what made up the championship combination. Equal Machinery = NASCAR and that would suck. When I began watching MotoGP three years ago, it was the dynamic Rossi, and the drama of the race to race competition that got me hooked, but it seems as though he is on the back nine of his motorcycle racing career. I alway's enjoy rooting for the underdog, however. | ||
| Vagelis46 |
"If Stoner had been signed by Yamaha this year, as was very likely at one point, instead of Ducati do you honestly think he would have won the title or beaten Rossi? " Interesting question that noone can say for sure. Maybe Rossi knew the answer when he blocked Stoner. Fortunately Lorenzo will get a factory M1 this. I would say that Stoner might not be able to do better than Rossi, but his performance would be very close to Rossi's, a bit better or a bit worse. Definately would do much better on the M1 than Edwards. | ||
| Jaimec |
I'm afraid I didn't pay that close attention (and I'm NOT being sarcastic now) but who finished higher last year? Stoner or Edwards? Is there some place that could be researched? There is NO doubt Stoner/Ducati/Bridgestone was the ideal combination this year. If you take Stoner out of the equation there were three other Bridgestone-shod Ducatis out there that didn't do NEARLY as well. One of them ridden by a man with YEARS of Ducati MotoGP experience under his belt, too. | ||
| Vagelis46 |
2 days of testing in Valencia, and things are very interesting. Capirossi seems happy, which is great to see. 2 rider's performances are the most interesting. It is surprising to see DePuniet being so fast, so early. Melandri ?? He was the slowest Ducati rider, Factory and D'antin. Guintoli switched bike & tires. So.....? | ||
| Trojan |
Melandri ?? Don't write Marco off just yet. He has only just swung a leg over the 2007 Ducati so there is a long way to go in testing before we can say who will be up front next year. Lorenzo seemed to spend more time pulling wheelies for the photographers than getting down to some serious testing. One thing is for sure. I wish they would keep these testing paintjobs & leathers all year! Much better than the normal sponsor covered stuff  | ||
| Vagelis46 |
It is strange that the Dantin Ducatis did better than Melandri's factory bike. Also the dandin riders, improved their pace, compared to their last year's bikes. Better riders ?? I would not think so. Different machinery ?? Maybe the factory bike is more powerful than the Dantin bikes, so more difficult to get used to ??? Or maybe Stoner is the only rider to ride the 'screamer' engine. Maybe it is an Aussie thing, since Doohan was the only one capable of riding the screamer 2-strokes 500cc. It was a real shame for us fans, that Rossi on Bridgestones was not there. So far, Nakano changed from Michelin to Bridges, and Depuniet from Bridges to Michelin. It seems that Depuniet found an improvement from the tires. He also made good comments for the michelin tires, but he is French supporting a French company, so..... First impressions are very important and show a lot of things. Last year Stoner was fast on the GP7 right from the begining, while Capirossi was struggling and never improved much during the year. Also Suzukis were doing well in the first test of last season, and they had a decent '07 year. I really would like Capirossi to have a great season next year, maybe his last !!!! Hayden might surprise some people...... | ||
| Bads1 |
Hayden might surprise some people...... Thats exactly what I'm thinking. He came back pretty strong as of late. I'm wondering how Hopper will do on the Kawi. Will it be a step backwards or forwards??? | ||
| Blake |
"This year the Ducati & bridgestone with Stoner at the helm were head & shoulders above every other Fixed it for you. Am I understanding the explanation correctly? On one hand it was only the Ducati that won Stoner the championship; he couldn't have won without it, but on the other hand it was the Ducati that prevented Capirossi from achieving better results? So apparently the rider made all the difference. I don't know what some folks expect, for a MotoGP racer to win the championship using inferior machine? Never happened, never will. Trying to hold up Stoner's performance for a 2nd tier (non-factory) team as indicative of his skills relative to the top factory competitors seems like a stretch to me. What other rookie riding for a 2nd tier MotoGP team ever did significantly better? | ||
| Jaimec |
Blake, a MotoGP racer DID win the title on an inferior machine. Happened two years in a row in 2004 and 2005. Where were you? | ||
| Blake |
What do you conjure was inferior about the Yamaha in '04 and '05? Let me guess, Rossi won the championship, but it wasn't a total shutout, so his motorcycle must have been inferior? Baloney. How about that when he won on the Honda, his machine, like Stoner's Ducati was superior. Naw, that cannot be; it would tend to diminish Rossi's moto-god stature.  | ||
| Rocketman |
Kicking this stuff around might never stop, but if one cares to look a little deeper it comes down to only one question, of which there is only one answer. Who is the best? The answer this season is the same as it has been for many previous. That is the only reason the Stoner / Ducati / Bridgestone dilemma exists. Because this year there were two things that stood out head and shoulders above everything else. The performance of the Ducati, and the superiority of the Bridgestones. Where Stoner sits in that equation is irrelevant. He won the title. Where Rossi sits in the equation is relevant. We all know had the circumstances been different, Stoner would not even be talked about before perhaps even Pedrosa, Melandri and maybe one or two others. Why? Because Stoner hasn't proved himself great any other time. Good maybe. Moto GP good, but not great. Rocket |
