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Spatten1
| | Posted on Friday, September 21, 2007 - 03:28 pm: | 
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I'm wondering if he didn't make up the belt issues too. No other journalist has mentioned that. |
Vagelis46
| | Posted on Friday, September 21, 2007 - 03:32 pm: |
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"What reviews have you been reading? "
Basically I follow the UK's mags, MCN, BIKE, PB......
By the way, PB and BIKE voted the XB12R the best handling bike ever!! So noone can say that they are Buell haters. But at the same time the laught at the ZTL of the XB, saying that it is almost dangerous. I think that for the XB12R, I will have to agree with both PB and BIKE. A great handling bike, but the brakes are.....
Here is another bad review from UK :
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/main.jhtml?vie w=DETAILS&grid=A1&xml=/motoring/2007/09/01/nosplit /mfbike01.xml
Kevin Ash is one of my favourite journalists. So far his reviews for bikes I find 100% right, after I ride the same bikes.
For me, Erik Buell, is the most important figure in the motorcycle manufacturing industry at the moment. I am sure that the 1125r has the best chassis, geometry, center of gravity in the moto market. I just do not want tiny-stupid details like Belts and ZTL2 reduce the importance of this motorcycle. Keeping these ,when it is proven to give the 1125r problems, is like hitting your head against the wall. I am sure that a chain and a conventional 2-disk braking system would take nothing from the bikes character.
Also, I would rather have hot air from the radiators on my legs (like every other sport-moto eg RC51), than directed to the shock and overheating it, losing its dampings.
I think that these kind of reviews should make a big warning to the factory, suggesting that they might need to review some of their solutions, before the 1125R bike is put against R1, RSV, 1098, Tuono, KTM 990cc, etc. The game is much harder now ,and I would not like to see the 1125R finish last. It would be a shame for Buell.
These first tests should make us (Buell fans) sceptical. Just saying "the Brits are Buell haters and do not know what they are talking about" is the wrong way to approach these tests.
It just might be that these journalists are correct, and that these problems are existing. |
Blake
| | Posted on Friday, September 21, 2007 - 03:36 pm: |
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"BRP/Rotax did nothing without sign-offs from the Buell team."
"Nothing"? To an engineering or manufacturing professional, that would mean that not a single Helicon engine drawing, purchase order, or production order was released by/within BRP-Rotax absent a specific and explicit sign-off on the drawing, purchase order, or production order by a Buell representative. Is that really the case? |
Blake
| | Posted on Friday, September 21, 2007 - 03:39 pm: |
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Vage,
Not the bike review, the MCN review I believe was the one conjuring imaginary brake issues. That is irresponsible and shady journalism in my view. Ditto the complaints about suspension performance when riding a bike setup for a much lighter rider. |
Vagelis46
| | Posted on Friday, September 21, 2007 - 03:46 pm: |
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Blake,
I think Jens used an air-scoop with ZTL2 on an XBRR for racing. If the ZTL2 is perfect, why would he do this??? |
Blake
| | Posted on Friday, September 21, 2007 - 04:15 pm: |
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"Perfect" is your word and it seems a bit extreme to me, especially since braking performance can be a somewhat subjective issue for some folks. But the answer to your question is that Jens developed and applied a cooling air-scoop to the stock ZTL-1 6-pot caliper on their XB race bike, not for a ZTL-2 8-pot caliper. Jens and team have not yet raced an XBRR. If they are now using the ZTL-2 eight pot caliper, they may still be using the same integrated front fender/scoop.
I now have a question for you.  Why is it do you imagine that at some of the most demanding braking circuits the world over none of the XBRRs being successfully raced have needed any kind of cooling air-scoop for their front brake caliper?
(Message edited by Blake on September 21, 2007) |
Vagelis46
| | Posted on Friday, September 21, 2007 - 04:25 pm: |
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OK, you do have a point!
I just want the 1125R to be "perfect".
For me, "perfect" is the 1125R hitting the top. |
Davegess
| | Posted on Friday, September 21, 2007 - 05:49 pm: |
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Keeping these ,when it is proven to give the 1125r problems,
I think this is pretty far fetched. A press ride of pre-production bikes certainly do not prove that the belt and the ZTL2 are giving the 1125 problems. If they do in a road test of a production bike it will be an issue but otherwise I think not. |
Anonymous
| | Posted on Friday, September 21, 2007 - 06:34 pm: |
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The press-launch bikes were pre-production, and are still seeing duty in the "Inside Pass" demo program. There were no belt failures at the press launch or at the demos, and the production version of the belt that will be used will be Goodyear's absolute latest, by far the best to date. This is typical: The production bikes will be more refined than the press intro bikes, simply because they will have received more development time. There will be tests and comparisons of the production bikes in a few months; those will put to rest claims of those English journalists who confused a flat torque curve for "no faster than a 600". On that point, it's interesting to read the posted comments from experienced non-journalists who participated in the demo program. This one from a Kawasaki ZZR rider is very detailed:
http://www.zzrbikes.com/modules.php?name=Forums&fi le=viewtopic&t=26236&postdays=0&postorder=asc&star t=0
But in any case, the real story of the 1125R will be told only when you get to ride one. |
Fresnobuell
| | Posted on Friday, September 21, 2007 - 06:38 pm: |
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It was sheer brilliance using the expertise of all the moto-journalists to fine tune the 1125r before production. the great thing is that most of the "problems" of the pre=production bike are solvable. I would love to see the process of digesting all the feedback and implementing the changes to the machine. I think the production model will have all the kinks out, as Buell knows all eyes are on them for the next few months. Wow, did you ever think THAT would happen?! |
Buellshyter
| | Posted on Friday, September 21, 2007 - 07:29 pm: |
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This coming from the folks who bring us the Land Rover - the absolute least reliable ride in the world, according to JD Power. |
M1combat
| | Posted on Friday, September 21, 2007 - 07:30 pm: |
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From the article posted by Anonny... The second response ...
"looks like we better not poke fun at the buell guys anymore. "
Nice . |
Buellshyter
| | Posted on Friday, September 21, 2007 - 07:38 pm: |
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Yea and this was also posted
I'm still not sold on the styling. That under-frame exaust mess is....well a mess. Maybe the after market will make something to cover that stuff up. |
Metalstorm
| | Posted on Friday, September 21, 2007 - 07:54 pm: |
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It looks like the Buell disease is becoming a widespread epidemic!
Love it or hate it, they can't stop thinking about it  |
Davegess
| | Posted on Friday, September 21, 2007 - 11:27 pm: |
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I give Buell full credit for the following:
1) Engineering Genius
2) Being very patient and political enough to it work with with Harley to get the financial backing he needs.
3) The ability to compromise in the short-term to get to his long term vision.
Spaten, the first half of this trip was financed by Erik. He raised the money, borrowed the money almost went broke, ate a lot cheap food. No patience working the H-D system, he was fighting for every penny.
Hell the last 12 years hav been a cake walk compared to the first twelve, a lot of folks could have done what he has done since H-D bought the show. The first 12 is were the accomplishment is. Without them this whole story doesn't happen.
One thing that Erik did and does is get others to buy into his visions and sacrifice to help. Nobody else however works as hard as he does. 20 hours a day, seven days a week for close to 20 years. Not to many people can do that. |
4cammer
| | Posted on Saturday, September 22, 2007 - 05:22 am: |
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Funny how people expect this bike to be perfect, no issues, no vibration, no heat from the engine.
This is a motorcycle. Not a vacuum cleaner or curling iron.
When I ride my XB9R I KNOW that I am not riding a Honda or Suzuki, my bike has character, makes me look at her every time I get off and walk away. I think Erik Buell has done an excellent job of retaining the "Buellness" of his newest creation, while also catering to those that must have a higher performing H2O cooled engine.
American motorcycle magazines, in my opinion, are mostly nothing more than rewritten press material. Look at the Brit mags, they flog the bikes, even look at used examples and report if they would buy one. ALL OF THE BIKES have issues.
Somehow people are expecting that the 1125R will be perfect, no issues, nothing negative. Well, that would make for one sterile machine, a sewing appliance, and we have too many of those in the showrooms already. |
Court
| | Posted on Saturday, September 22, 2007 - 07:53 am: |
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I Did not, nor did I intend to "demean" John Britten.
Having read every book ( and they are you know are in stark contrast after Tim Hanna write his huge 496 page, very detailed book the Britten family was incensed that Tim told "the truth" and quickly hire Felicity, Kirsteen Britten's cousin to write "another version". ) I am fairly tuned in to the facts and the facts are what I was stating.
I have tremendous admiration for John Britten. My intent was to state the barriers and differences that Erik have to overcome that Britten didn't.
Erik for instance, was never in a position to say "I need it in a hurry. . I'll pay you $100,000 cash advance to move me to the front of the production line" to get a crankshaft built. John had the luxury of being a wealthy person when he made the move from a glass artist to motorcycle builder.
I further went on to draw the contrast that John with all his genius built a total of somewhere on the order of 10 motorcycles and never once in his career had to comply with NHTSA, FMVSS, TuV, EPA, CARB or anything else.
Again, it's not to take ANYTHING away from John Britten I'm simply pointing out that to just get a bike to the point of where those "pre-production" bikes was (in full compliance with every spec worldwide with a single exception which was completed the following week) is light years beyond just designing and building a fascinating motorcycle like Britten did.
While we're on the topic and since I know you'll hold my feet to the fire, anyone want to take a crack at how much money was pissed away by Indian and Excelsior-Henderson before they went belly up? Erik and I were in a disagreement about it last night and I'd enjoy seeing your guesses or perhaps someone has better numbers than my guess. I'm saying they had and used over a QUARTER BILLION dollars in my effort to showcase the fact that money, although an element, is one of the less important elements of building a successful company.
Bottom line I did not nor will I "demean" John Britten.
Which version do you accept?
P.S. - How about a show of hands to see how many people espousing strong opinions about John Britten have and have read all the books about him? I ask because I once found myself in a debate only to find that I'd spent hours reading about Britten and was arguing with a guy whose entire knowledge base was looking at pictures of a gorgeous pink and blue bike. |
Buellshyter
| | Posted on Saturday, September 22, 2007 - 07:07 pm: |
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I'd like to know what's keeping Victory afloat. I think I've seen one bike on the open road..ONE !!!! |
Jaimec
| | Posted on Saturday, September 22, 2007 - 07:59 pm: |
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In my area I've seen quite a few Victories. They're doing very well. |
46champ
| | Posted on Saturday, September 22, 2007 - 08:11 pm: |
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I'll take a guess the Hanlon Bros.I think that was their name, went thru 80 to a 100 million. Indian probably 100% more figure 160 to 200. So I guess 240 to 300 million. This is why Kenny Dreer said there was no money for the Norton project, all the money people are scared.
(Message edited by 46champ on September 23, 2007) |
Towjam
| | Posted on Saturday, September 22, 2007 - 09:41 pm: |
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I'm absolutely sure you will never see a launch by Ducati, KTM or BMW of an 'unfinished' or 'pre-production' bike,
Go back and read the pre-launch and early-launch reviews of the BMW K1200S. Ugly stuff - including BMW having to buy back the first 1200s that had shipped to customers. The bike was scheduled to launch in the "Fall of '04" but the fixed models didn't actually start hitting dealer showrooms until early '05. |
Spatten1
| | Posted on Saturday, September 22, 2007 - 09:45 pm: |
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I'm saying they had and used over a QUARTER BILLION dollars
I heard the same number. As soon as I heard they only had a total of $250 million and were designing their own engine, I knew they were doomed. That is where Buell was much smarter.
I don't mean to demean Erik Buell either, and understand he worked his butt off. I do make note, that very few entrepreneurs have the patience to work with a big company's BS to get where they want to be in the long run. Very unusual story. |
Blake
| | Posted on Sunday, September 23, 2007 - 03:07 am: |
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quote:"Brakes are really 1 or 2 finger stoppers, and the thing just STOPS.
One guy complained about funky braking but he was the only one; I
suspect that disc had been abused by the motojournalists and was
warped or something. The bikes didn't get a break and were run very
hard for about 8 straight hours... no issues I was aware of."
Good reporting for a change. Thanks for the link anony. |
Reepicheep
| | Posted on Sunday, September 23, 2007 - 09:51 am: |
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I was sent a link by a guy that hangs out on the CBR lists. It was a lot less coherent and a lot more profane then that ZZR list posting, but echoed it's enthusiasm for the bike ;)
These track days with demo bikes are a great idea. I wish Buell would take it to the next level (or in this case, take it to a lower level), and have a touring Battletrax like event (with Reg and all) as well. It could be a lot more places, has a much lower intimidation factor, and would be just as cool at getting people to appreciate Buell bikes. |
Brad1445
| | Posted on Sunday, September 23, 2007 - 11:11 am: |
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I don't think the guy bashing the exhaust is because of location, but because of the look. If the metal was shaped to compliment other lines on the bike it would go a long way moving the needle in the looks department.
Some of the photoshoped versions going around the internet are HOT!
And for the record I have had two front brake disk warp over the years. Not at the track, in the hills of Colorado. |
Dre99gsx
| | Posted on Sunday, September 23, 2007 - 12:13 pm: |
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"Given that Buell have still not shaken off the 'unreliable' image in Europe this will undoubtedly mean that some people will not even bother taking the test ride or seeng the real thing when it arrives. Now that the public launch has been delayed it will reinforce the idea that the bike is not ready for production. "
Yeah.. I'm sure DUCATI is having a field day. DUCATI is no better with their image of issues, maintenance, costs, and unreliability. Hell they even offer "50% less maintenance" on the site. Obviously BUELL is not superior, but also is not inferior. Let Buell have minor issues. Its AFTER you purchase the bike that will matter. Customer service, support, friendly help and willingness to keep you riding with less hassle. No motorcycle company stands out in that field. |
Spatten1
| | Posted on Sunday, September 23, 2007 - 12:40 pm: |
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Ducati, like HD, has built such a brand cache that they can sell despite reliability or maintenance issues. There is no substitute for Ducatisti or those people in vests and chaps. Only one brand will get you in the respective "club".
Ducati, like Buell, seems to be going after a bigger market with their new bike, judging by the lower price and improved maintenance schedule. If the new Ducs prove unreliable, I don't believe that they will keep the more mainstream buyer segment that they are shooting for. |
Vagelis46
| | Posted on Sunday, September 23, 2007 - 02:20 pm: |
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I think Buell and Ducati are two very different stories.
It is certain that there were some reliability "issues" with Ducati, in the past. But not as bad as most people believe. Most problems were down to the owner's ignorance. Anyway...
But Ducati has a huge racing success! From 1988 onwards all their top superbikes have won the WSBK and many other championships....851, 888, 916, 996,998,999 all world championship winning bikes. They also managed to win the motoGP this year.
So when buying a Ducati, you "feel" you buy a race winning equipment, so you do not care for minor reliability issues.
It is not the lower maintenance schedule that sells Ducatis. It is their racing excellence, and the performance of the bikes they manufacture. |
Spatten1
| | Posted on Sunday, September 23, 2007 - 02:34 pm: |
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It funny, looking back to the early 90's, Ducati had as much trouble finishing at Daytona as Buell did this year. They sure picked it up! |
Old_mil
| | Posted on Monday, September 24, 2007 - 02:37 am: |
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Go back and read the pre-launch and early-launch reviews of the BMW K1200S. Ugly stuff - including BMW having to buy back the first 1200s that had shipped to customers. The bike was scheduled to launch in the "Fall of '04" but the fixed models didn't actually start hitting dealer showrooms until early '05.
Yep...and what's worse is that they *still* haven't gotten it sorted. |
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